travel_dude Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 14 minutes ago, MAC331 said: I never know what your definition of "true" #4D means, I look for players that play well together. The Flames IMO are not going to spend big on a 4th defenseman given what is tied up in the first 3. Stone complimented Brodie quite well and if he can be had for 3.75M for 3 years I would call it a day. As I have said Engelland for 1 more season wouldn't be a bad idea. Having a position where we could have extended looks at any of the close prospects would simply be smart planning to get them into the picture. Look at the depth of some teams like: NYI - Leddy, Hamonic, Hickey and Boychuk. PITTS - Schultz, Letang, Maata, Daley, etc. SJS - Burns, Pickle, Braun, Martin, STL I'm just saying that Stone is a good depth guy, better than anything we have in the system right now, just not convinced he is a great fit for #4 with Brodie. I would have like to see their number look a lot better. They faced easier competition than Gio did. We won't be able to sign Stone until FA, so his offers may be a lot higher than that. He could also be selected by LV as their pick from us, if they do it before FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 43 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Look at the depth of some teams like: NYI - Leddy, Hamonic, Hickey and Boychuk. PITTS - Schultz, Letang, Maata, Daley, etc. SJS - Burns, Pickle, Braun, Martin, STL I'm just saying that Stone is a good depth guy, better than anything we have in the system right now, just not convinced he is a great fit for #4 with Brodie. I would have like to see their number look a lot better. They faced easier competition than Gio did. We won't be able to sign Stone until FA, so his offers may be a lot higher than that. He could also be selected by LV as their pick from us, if they do it before FA. I understand the Stone signing window not to have you explain it to me. I see 3 groups of 4 good defensemen, who in these groups in your opinion is their "true" #4 so we know whom Stone is being compared . You didn't really define a "true" #4 or what measurements you go by. You refer to both Stone and Engelland as "depth" defensemen yet they play real time as regulars ??? I would call depth someone such as Bartkowski and a 7th defenseman, then you are into your prospect pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 34 minutes ago, MAC331 said: I understand the Stone signing window not to have you explain it to me. I see 3 groups of 4 good defensemen, who in these groups in your opinion is their "true" #4 so we know whom Stone is being compared . You didn't really define a "true" #4 or what measurements you go by. You refer to both Stone and Engelland as "depth" defensemen yet they play real time as regulars ??? I would call depth someone such as Bartkowski and a 7th defenseman, then you are into your prospect pool. You tend to deal in absolutes a lot, so I thought I would mention about Stone signing or not signing here. You seem to be insulted that anyone should point that out. Funny. Perhaps I was leading you down a path by saying true #4, but all I was getting at was that it's a D-man that is a top 4 d-man in the league, and he happens to be #4 on the Flames. Maybe we could get a top 2 guy or a #3 guy, pushing Brodie down the list.but the 4th best of your top d-men. IMHO Stone isn't top 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 43 minutes ago, travel_dude said: You tend to deal in absolutes a lot, so I thought I would mention about Stone signing or not signing here. You seem to be insulted that anyone should point that out. Funny. Perhaps I was leading you down a path by saying true #4, but all I was getting at was that it's a D-man that is a top 4 d-man in the league, and he happens to be #4 on the Flames. Maybe we could get a top 2 guy or a #3 guy, pushing Brodie down the list.but the 4th best of your top d-men. IMHO Stone isn't top 4. I think this where people such as yourself get caught with using numbers to label players. A winning team has players with other players that play best together not because their stats match up. Same goes for forward lines,minutes played, match ups against opposing lines, each line has certain aspects expected of them. The coaches job is to find that best chemistry. For the short time together I thought Stone and Brodie performed well together ad would have no problem seeing them together this coming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Vanek? Minny still pays him 2.5 next year on buyout. If he comes cheap, is he a viable option for a #1 RW for the short term? Speaking of Minny, they are ripe for the picking because they are going to have some good players they can't protect. I'd like to see us take another step this yr that doesn't involve spending to the cap on everything high end. Can Kuemper be a better backup than CJ? A little younger, I'd think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, conundrumed said: Vanek? Minny still pays him 2.5 next year on buyout. If he comes cheap, is he a viable option for a #1 RW for the short term? Speaking of Minny, they are ripe for the picking because they are going to have some good players they can't protect. I'd like to see us take another step this yr that doesn't involve spending to the cap on everything high end. Can Kuemper be a better backup than CJ? A little younger, I'd think so. I'm leary of players that have been passed around so much. The other question becomes are you waiting for a better option and when might that happen. I would say unless the Flames have plans of switching Tkachuk to RW top line at some point they need a more definite solution. We could but another season if we don't want that pressure on Tkachuk this early by signing back Versteeg and playing him and Ferland there at times. I don't think this is the best solution. This is why I would give TJ Oshie serious consideration on a longer term. I honestly think we are getting way over concerned about our goaltending, BT will put something good in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Next year UFA is a payload at G and RW. Maybe we should be patient and not blow a bunch of money on this years crop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 15 hours ago, conundrumed said: Next year UFA is a payload at G and RW. Maybe we should be patient and not blow a bunch of money on this years crop. I think if you are BT you try to cover our needs but don't blow your brains out on the money commitment. We have some players that if they grow into the players we expect will have to be paid. I am sure BT is working over a few excel spread sheets into the future. Take a run at TJ Oshie at what you are prepared to pay, I have said 5x5 it is not the end of our world if he doesn't accept us. In goal I would keep our costs for 2 goalies below 6M for the next 2 years at least, no matter who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermissashift Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 The Flames did as well in 2015 as the Oilers did this year. They both got bonked in the 2nd round. I think Treliving should stay and Burke should go. I think Johnny is a fine player but feel he is too small for playoff hockey (he did do better with Hudler though). Get a big fast play making goal scorer:) Is that how you would describe Oshie? He sure missed a bunch of good opportunities to save the Caps in game 7 last night; he looked psyched out. I feel Brouwer can go too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 3 hours ago, MAC331 said: I think if you are BT you try to cover our needs but don't blow your brains out on the money commitment. We have some players that if they grow into the players we expect will have to be paid. I am sure BT is working over a few excel spread sheets into the future. Take a run at TJ Oshie at what you are prepared to pay, I have said 5x5 it is not the end of our world if he doesn't accept us. In goal I would keep our costs for 2 goalies below 6M for the next 2 years at least, no matter who they are. I have to ask this, since I didn't watch him that closely in the playoffs or regular season. What is it about Oshie you like? Is he the right type of player for this team? He's not overly big. He scored well enough, but is he a top line player or complimentary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Just now, travel_dude said: I have to ask this, since I didn't watch him that closely in the playoffs or regular season. What is it about Oshie you like? Is he the right type of player for this team? He's not overly big. He scored well enough, but is he a top line player or complimentary? He is tenacious for the puck, has a better than average scoring touch, experience and having played for Hitchcock his overall game at both ends is solid. May be a bit smaller than Tkachuk but a lot of similarities between those two. I just feel that in order for everyone on a line of Gaudreau with Monahan there has to be another bonafide threat the opposition has to be equally concerned about. This chemistry buys space for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfire11 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 28 minutes ago, travel_dude said: I have to ask this, since I didn't watch him that closely in the playoffs or regular season. What is it about Oshie you like? Is he the right type of player for this team? He's not overly big. He scored well enough, but is he a top line player or complimentary? I see Oshie's play as a Frolik after a triple expresso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermissashift Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 With Washington not delivering year after year do you think Trotz or Ovetchy might be on the block? Do you think there is any room left for Alex's head in the Flame's room? I know it's a dumb remark. Why look for complimentary players; why not for top talent? Are there any more top notch prospect players ready to come up? Are there any more fantastic possibilities like kchuk in the pool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 22 minutes ago, redfire11 said: I see Oshie's play as a Frolik after a triple expresso Better scoring touch but Frolik is a good comparison also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 It wouldn't surprise me if Washington listens to offers on Ovechkin this year but unless you blow them away I think there is no way they move him. I don't think the Flames have the ability to blow Washington away with any offer on Ovechkin without completely gutting their team. I think you'd have to look at something like Gaudreau AND Monahan just to get Washington to listen. I also doubt Trotz is made available but even if he was I wouldn't pull the trigger. Gulutzan did a great job this year so firing him would make no sense IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 31 minutes ago, MAC331 said: He is tenacious for the puck, has a better than average scoring touch, experience and having played for Hitchcock his overall game at both ends is solid. May be a bit smaller than Tkachuk but a lot of similarities between those two. I just feel that in order for everyone on a line of Gaudreau with Monahan there has to be another bonafide threat the opposition has to be equally concerned about. This chemistry buys space for everyone. Who would you value on the Flames more - Eberle at $6m or Oshie at $6m? Two different players. Both about the same size. Both can score. One is obviously better in the playoffs. I don't condone or recommend Eberle, but he would be dynamic on the 1st line too. At least I think he could. The bigger question is can you get him to step up his all-round game? Committ to defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, nevermissashift said: With Washington not delivering year after year do you think Trotz or Ovetchy might be on the block? Do you think there is any room left for Alex's head in the Flame's room? I know it's a dumb remark. Why look for complimentary players; why not for top talent? Are there any more top notch prospect players ready to come up? Are there any more fantastic possibilities like kchuk in the pool? There is lots of speculation on that since the Caps were eliminated. I'd like Trotz as coach. I'd also trade Gaudreau & a bit for OV. I'd hold off on this until after the Olys though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Who would you value on the Flames more - Eberle at $6m or Oshie at $6m? Two different players. Both about the same size. Both can score. One is obviously better in the playoffs. I don't condone or recommend Eberle, but he would be dynamic on the 1st line too. At least I think he could. The bigger question is can you get him to step up his all-round game? Committ to defense? Oshie and it wouldn't be close. Far superior all around player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Just now, travel_dude said: Who would you value on the Flames more - Eberle at $6m or Oshie at $6m? Two different players. Both about the same size. Both can score. One is obviously better in the playoffs. I don't condone or recommend Eberle, but he would be dynamic on the 1st line too. At least I think he could. The bigger question is can you get him to step up his all-round game? Committ to defense? @ = price $s I'd take Oshie every time. The cost to acquire is only the $s. Eberle was a more complete player back in junior but even being on a better Oilers than he's used to he hasn't rediscovered that. @ $6 x 2 I'm not ready to take the chance a trade might shock him back into that play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 I have been saying this for years, but no team with Ovechkin on it will ever win the Cup. He plays the game for himself, he isn't a team guy. I wouldn't want him here if all it took was send Stajan the other way. Hard pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Who would you value on the Flames more - Eberle at $6m or Oshie at $6m? Two different players. Both about the same size. Both can score. One is obviously better in the playoffs. I don't condone or recommend Eberle, but he would be dynamic on the 1st line too. At least I think he could. The bigger question is can you get him to step up his all-round game? Committ to defense? I really like Eberle as a Junior but he has become complacent with his talents. I actually think a change would do him good but to the East Conference. I hear there is a RW position available in WAS. Hey I am on record for TJ Oshie as a Flame at 5x5 if not we move on. I would love to have him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermissashift Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 21 minutes ago, travel_dude said: Who would you value on the Flames more - Eberle at $6m or Oshie at $6m? Two different players. Both about the same size. Both can score. One is obviously better in the playoffs. I don't condone or recommend Eberle, but he would be dynamic on the 1st line too. At least I think he could. The bigger question is can you get him to step up his all-round game? Committ to defense? Oshie for sure! Eberle was a first overall wasn't he? You shouldn't have to prod him to step it up and work on his game; he should have an insatiable hunger born into him. He doesn't seem to have what Oshie has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermissashift Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said: @ = price $s I'd take Oshie every time. The cost to acquire is only the $s. Eberle was a more complete player back in junior but even being on a better Oilers than he's used to he hasn't rediscovered that. @ $6 x 2 I'm not ready to take the chance a trade might shock him back into that play. 'might' be a big gamble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 17 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said: @ = price $s I'd take Oshie every time. The cost to acquire is only the $s. Eberle was a more complete player back in junior but even being on a better Oilers than he's used to he hasn't rediscovered that. @ $6 x 2 I'm not ready to take the chance a trade might shock him back into that play. It would have to be basically a giveaway before I would consider a trade with the Oilers. Even trading them Brouwer for Eberle would probably come back to haunt us. Just now, nevermissashift said: Oshie for sure! Eberle was a first overall wasn't he? You shouldn't have to prod him to step it up and work on his game; he should have an insatiable hunger born into him. He doesn't seem to have what Oshie has. Not first. #22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermissashift Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, travel_dude said: It would have to be basically a giveaway before I would consider a trade with the Oilers. Even trading them Brouwer for Eberle would probably come back to haunt us. Not first. #22. #22 thanks... (2008) but what I put forward still applies... he seems reserved or something. Oshie was #24 in 2005. Was Oshie always charged up like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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