Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

[robrob74]

10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

A 7-1, a 6-1 and a 5-1 loss on this trip.

None of the games looked inspired or well thought out.

The team has bailed on the coach and even on playing for each other.

Coaching sucks, leadership sucks.

Firing the coach is the easiest, but I think there's failure in coaching beyond just the head coach.

Defensive play most nights is a joke.

The PP looks designed by a child.

 

I believe the coach said the playoffs was the way he wanted the team to play defense.

That seems to be a complete lack of understanding.

 

 

the thing is though, I feel like all of these things have been bad for a long time. D has always had horrible brain farts that lead to goals. The pp has never really been a movement thing and they rely on Gaudreau’s skill too much even though there are others. 

the team may have been a possession juggernaut but have also always mostly been a perimeter team that passes too much. Now it looks even worse.
 

 

[travel_dude]

6 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

the thing is though, I feel like all of these things have been bad for a long time. D has always had horrible brain farts that lead to goals. The pp has never really been a movement thing and they rely on Gaudreau’s skill too much even though there are others. 

the team may have been a possession juggernaut but have also always mostly been a perimeter team that passes too much. Now it looks even worse.
 

 

 

I don't even see a team as good as the 2018/19 team.  They at least attacked with speed and knew how to score.

What we are seeng is a dump and chase team.

The passes run through JH because he's one of the few that can make a pass.

But the reasons for passing have a lot to do with taking most of the 2 minutes to gain the zone.

We are running every down low play through Tkachuk and he is using his one move.

 

We've had the same coaches running the D and PP since BP came.

The breakouts have never looked this bad, so something is up.

This is the opposite of possession team.

Can't make simple exits and wait for the next wave.

 

[dieselmarble]

How long can the GM watch this train wreck? Its not like its a great team in a slump. Its a mid level team at best playing like a basement team. BT is doing nothing, Fire Him...

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't even see a team as good as the 2018/19 team.  They at least attacked with speed and knew how to score.

What we are seeng is a dump and chase team.

The passes run through JH because he's one of the few that can make a pass.

But the reasons for passing have a lot to do with taking most of the 2 minutes to gain the zone.

We are running every down low play through Tkachuk and he is using his one move.

 

We've had the same coaches running the D and PP since BP came.

The breakouts have never looked this bad, so something is up.

This is the opposite of possession team.

Can't make simple exits and wait for the next wave.

 

I get that. They did play with more speed in latter half of games most of the time. So it looks better then. But in the end it was the same story of the top 6 not getting it done when games got tough. The year you’re quoting, the top 6 had a horrible finish to the season. Sure they’re good enough to get points even when they’re playing bad. 
 

when it gets hard the team plays on the boards  and don’t get to the dirty areas. 
 

there are similarities but there are differences too. And yup! We do look worse nowadays! 

[cross16]

Treliving already went public before this road trip and I thought made it pretty clear he wasn't happy. Team followed it up with that road trip so I question what Treliving can really say at this point. Would be better served telling the players directly if he hasn't already. 

 

I'm starting to believe that the Flames are not going to do anything and that is by design. This management team was pretty vocal pre playoffs, and honestly post, that if this core didn't get it done it would be the end of the line for them. I am of the belief that they have tried hard to change up their core but the impact of covid and the shrinking cap likely made it very challenging to do that. 

 

so the alternative is give them a coach they wanted (and reports are the players wanted to see Ward stay) tell them it's all on them and if they don't get it done no more bailouts. It's a shortened season with revenues already suffering so no consequences there and the hope being that next off season more opportunities to change things come up with, or after the expansion draft. 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

I get that. They did play with more speed in latter half of games most of the time. So it looks better then. But in the end it was the same story of the top 6 not getting it done when games got tough. The year you’re quoting, the top 6 had a horrible finish to the season. Sure they’re good enough to get points even when they’re playing bad. 
 

when it gets hard the team plays on the boards  and don’t get to the dirty areas. 
 

there are similarities but there are differences too. And yup! We do look worse nowadays! 

 

The finish to the year was definitely a team taking the foot off the gas.

What we saw in the playoffs was a product of not being hungry.

Gio and Backlund and Tkachuk mostly a no-show.

The top line being played against Nate?

Easy to clog up the neutral zone.

 

The biggest thing I can see similar to that playoffs is asking the goalie to win the games.

You knew Smith was going to give up a putrid goal or make 2/3 saves on a single chance.

They did the exact same thing this past playoffs.

 

What I see is a team that can't play a certain way and it's being forced to play that way.

This past playoffs, same coach that believes in not coaching the game, but using his same tricks to win them.

When they backfire, preach the waiting game; wait for your chances and they will come.

Wait for the other team to rest on a lead.

Play for the 0-0 tie.

 

We can keep going back to other years, but it's really pointless.  The coach and team lost back then.  The GM made some changes.

So far, the only thing that has looked good is the goalie (at times) and Tanev.

It's obvious to me that Gio-Brodie was the only way Gio plays like a Norris D-man.

 

So, replace the coach and move on.  The player trades are more difficult to do this year.

You committed to the team this off-season, so the coaching is the only thing that can change right now.

Make the big changes to the core in the off season, assuming the season can't be saved.

If we are basement dwellers by the TDL, make as many moves as you can with the depth that is UFA or the ones you know you are not keeping.

 

 

[zima]

On 2/21/2021 at 9:55 AM, pikey7883 said:

I actually think the time is now, the results of this road trip are going to be what their going to be. If you keep the coaches and the players with no changes are we expecting something different? If we fire the coach and make a trade or do something to wake this team up, does it make this road trip worse or better? I would argue they let the shackles off of this team without the current coaching staff. And have the new coach ready for our next home stand. 

This team is staie no question in my mind and I don't think it can be fixed with a bandage we have tried to plug a player here and there with no fix in site some of these games are starting to be hard to watch reminds of of the 7 yr drought. So what now look towards a top pick and how does that even work this draft? Will Knuckle heads pass use in the standings will the Sens do the same  we are going the wrong way in the standings.BT thought a new goalie would be the answer like the last 5 season he hasn't made any quality player grabs in seems like for ever except for trading away a bunch of firsts and seconds. They started to look better and playoffs get here and there packing up I really didn't want to see another 7 yrs of mediocrity but seems like were heading that way. 

[jjgallow]

4 hours ago, cross16 said:

Treliving already went public before this road trip and I thought made it pretty clear he wasn't happy. Team followed it up with that road trip so I question what Treliving can really say at this point. Would be better served telling the players directly if he hasn't already. 

 

I'm starting to believe that the Flames are not going to do anything and that is by design. This management team was pretty vocal pre playoffs, and honestly post, that if this core didn't get it done it would be the end of the line for them. I am of the belief that they have treid hard to change up their core but the impact of covid and the shrinking cap ikely made it very challenging to do that. 

 

so the alternative is give them a coach they wanted (and reports are they wanted to see Ward stay) tell them it's all on them and if they don't get it done no more bailouts. I'ts a shortened season with revenues already suffering so no consequences there and the hope being that next off season more opporutnites to change things come up witht he expansion draft. 

 

Pretty much this.   Except that you have more faith in management than me.    Definitely, if they were trying to tank, they are succeeding.   But this is the same management that sells first round picks for cheap, RHS D prospects for cheap, and cut short our previous rebuild because they wanted "ton win now".   What happens at that level, nobody knows.   I guess it's possible.   If so, they really nailed it.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, zima said:

This team is staie no question in my mind and I don't think it can be fixed with a bandage we have tried to plug a player here and there with no fix in site some of these games are starting to be hard to watch reminds of of the 7 yr drought. So what now look towards a top pick and how does that even work this draft? Will Knuckle heads pass use in the standings will the Sens do the same  we are going the wrong way in the standings.BT thought a new goalie would be the answer like the last 5 season he hasn't made any quality player grabs in seems like for ever except for trading away a bunch of firsts and seconds. They started to look better and playoffs get here and there packing up I really didn't want to see another 7 yrs of mediocrity but seems like were heading that way. 

 

Covid aside, this next draft is an excellent draft to start a rebuild.   The top 10 is stacked with franchise altering defencemen and goalies.

 

I know everyone wants that center but realistically this is where a proper rebuild starts.   D and G take longer to develop and are also the backbone of any contender.   So if you can get that part sorted first in your rebuild, you are way ahead of the game.   It's definitely a year for finding your next Giordano or Kipper.

 

If we were somehow able to acquire more picks at the trade deadline, we could be in pretty good shape there.    Although I don't see an easy way of acquiring another top 10 pick.

 

Treliving does terrify me though.  I feel like if he remains the GM, this relatively obvious plan will somehow get botched.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Pretty much this.   Except that you have more faith in management than me.    Definitely, if they were trying to tank, they are succeeding.   But this is the same management that sells first round picks for cheap, RHS D prospects for cheap, and cut short our previous rebuild because they wanted "ton win now".   What happens at that level, nobody knows.   I guess it's possible.   If so, they really nailed it.

def not succeeding even at tanking. We are a game below .500 team and going to end up picking 6th or 7th again. 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Covid aside, this next draft is an excellent draft to start a rebuild.   The top 10 is stacked with franchise altering defencemen and goalies.

 

I know everyone wants that center but realistically this is where a proper rebuild starts.   D and G take longer to develop and are also the backbone of any contender.   So if you can get that part sorted first in your rebuild, you are way ahead of the game.   It's definitely a year for finding your next Giordano or Kipper.

 

If we were somehow able to acquire more picks at the trade deadline, we could be in pretty good shape there.    Although I don't see an easy way of acquiring another top 10 pick.

 

Treliving does terrify me though.  I feel like if he remains the GM, this relatively obvious plan will somehow get botched.

The thing is, we need two top pairs and a future goalie. The one we have will be a stopgap until then. Wolf could be something but even if he is possibly a good backup you need that too. 
 

I doubt there’ll be any moves now and I think that keeps us at 1-2 games below .500.

 

last year, I get some of the D drafted at our spot are projected more of a 2nd pair, but I thought we should have gone D instead of trading down. We haven’t really gambled on D enough. Ok great! We added some picks that made up for a few crappy trades they made at the deadline to go out in the first round.
 

it’s tough but even Josi and Weber and other D have been drafted 2nd round or later. 
 

 

[jjgallow]

21 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

The thing is, we need two top pairs and a future goalie. The one we have will be a stopgap until then. Wolf could be something but even if he is possibly a good backup you need that too. 
 

I doubt there’ll be any moves now and I think that keeps us at 1-2 games below .500.

 

last year, I get some of the D drafted at our spot are projected more of a 2nd pair, but I thought we should have gone D instead of trading down. We haven’t really gambled on D enough. Ok great! We added some picks that made up for a few crappy trades they made at the deadline to go out in the first round.
 

it’s tough but even Josi and Weber and other D have been drafted 2nd round or later. 
 

 

 

Completely agree, Treliving passed up perfect BPA RHSD in last year's draft to make was admittedly a fair value trade with our pick  But why he wasn't interested in a BPA RHSD, we may never know.   At this time it's not the Worst move I've seen him make but like many it ...was odd.

 

absolutely right on the two top pairs and a future goalie.

[travel_dude]

 

I guess what we should be talking about in this thread is what we reasonably expect BT to do.

 

Doubtful

Fire the coach

Trade a core player during the season

Waive Bennett or Gio.

 

Possible

Trade a non-core piece and/or picks and prospects for a top 6 C/RW.

Depending on the player coming, it may be just a winger or one that could play both C/RW.

 

Do not expect a mid-season tear down.  

I don't even think we see the core sold off for picks and prospects in the summer.

It will be for players in the same age range or slightly younger.

Call it a re-tool if you like, but it won't be a 3-5 year rebuild.

 

We missed out on PLD, but one has to think that Forsberg may be available.

That's a Monhan for Forsberg deal.

Does it make sense to the Flames and Preds to do it now?

Not really with the quarantine period. 

 

I think we are going to see BT do very little until the summer.

BT believes they are better than what we are seeing.

 

[ABC923]

Just because we are just under .500 so far doesn’t mean we are going to stay that way.  This team is collapsing, if we win 2 games in a row at any point from here on out I will be surprised.

 

I’ll be watching Schneider’s career.  He was a guy I was quietly hoping would fall to us in the draft, and was pretty disappointed when he did only for us to trade down.

 

As for in season moves, maybe we trade guys like Ryan or Bennett. I still think JG could move, especially if we agree to retain Salary, and could net us a big return. But the tear down (and that’s what we need imo) will have to wait.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Completely agree, Treliving passed up perfect BPA RHSD in last year's draft to make was admittedly a fair value trade with our pick  But why he wasn't interested in a BPA RHSD, we may never know.   At this time it's not the Worst move I've seen him make but like many it ...was odd.

 

absolutely right on the two top pairs and a future goalie.

 

I think Schneider's ceiling was pretty low but still, yes, BT in general has a disregard for RHS and places too little value on RHS.  The result, too many LHS LWs on this team.  Congratulations, we almost certainly have infighting and unhappy players.  Sam Bennett has nowhere to play for example.  Tkachuk has to move over to the right side.  It's musical chairs on RW.  Then, we take our best RW and play him at Center... because we need RHS Centers to take faceoffs.  Great.

 

If you don't reach a little bit in the draft for RHS, then you won't have any.  They are expensive to acquire through trades.  Teams don't let go of their RHS or they demand a ransom for them.

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

The thing is, we need two top pairs and a future goalie. The one we have will be a stopgap until then. Wolf could be something but even if he is possibly a good backup you need that too. 
 

I doubt there’ll be any moves now and I think that keeps us at 1-2 games below .500.

 

last year, I get some of the D drafted at our spot are projected more of a 2nd pair, but I thought we should have gone D instead of trading down. We haven’t really gambled on D enough. Ok great! We added some picks that made up for a few crappy trades they made at the deadline to go out in the first round.
 

it’s tough but even Josi and Weber and other D have been drafted 2nd round or later. 
 

 

 

I agree.  Also, if you look at the 2008 and 2021 drafts, they have a lot in common.    The top 10 is littered with franchise altering defencemen (and maybe goalies).

 

What that does, of course, is push defencemen who normally would have been first rounders into the 2nd round.    

 

So... yeah.

 

The trick of course is to look for the Roman Josis.    Which is:

-Crazy skills (he was a points machine)

-Sadly, we're likely looking at LHS in the 2nd round (if we want talent).    All the more reason to pick up the RHS in top 10 if BPA.

-Not small, but not big enough to be a prototype (he was 6'1)

-Something out of the ordinary which keeps him out of first round (Swiss league was not heavily scouted back then.   Similar leagues exist today)

 

If we picked up a couple 2nd rounders or a late first rounder, and we pick high naturally, 2021 could be the beginning of an amazing year and it's loaded with such good D that I actually think it's hard to completely mess up.   It's not impossible to acquire your entire first line of cup-contending D in that draft.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think Schneider's ceiling was pretty low but still, yes, BT in general has a disregard for RHS and places too little value on RHS.  The result, too many LHS LWs on this team.  Congratulations, we almost certainly have infighting and unhappy players.  Sam Bennett has nowhere to play for example.  Tkachuk has to move over to the right side.  It's musical chairs on RW.  Then, we take our best RW and play him at Center... because we need RHS Centers to take faceoffs.  Great.

 

If you don't reach a little bit in the draft for RHS, then you won't have any.  They are expensive to acquire through trades.  Teams don't let go of their RHS or they demand a ransom for them.

Well instead of Bennett and Tkachuk we take the Nylander bros.  Get a couple RHS but become softer than butter.  Are we really better in that situation?  Who else?  Robert Thomas instead of Valimaki?  similar production this year, not sure this years version of Thomas is helping a team that can't score.  But I don't really know who else are the stud RHS that we've missed out on over the past 5 years.  

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I think Schneider's ceiling was pretty low but still, yes, BT in general has a disregard for RHS and places too little value on RHS.  The result, too many LHS LWs on this team.  Congratulations, we almost certainly have infighting and unhappy players.  Sam Bennett has nowhere to play for example.  Tkachuk has to move over to the right side.  It's musical chairs on RW.  Then, we take our best RW and play him at Center... because we need RHS Centers to take faceoffs.  Great.

 

If you don't reach a little bit in the draft for RHS, then you won't have any.  They are expensive to acquire through trades.  Teams don't let go of their RHS or they demand a ransom for them.

 

I must admit, Schneider's ceiling is not evidently high right now so there is that.   But then we'd be getting into the Askarov discussion.   We didn't have to downgrade, we could have upgraded haha

[DirtyDeeds]

This GM has at best a dismal record of coaching hires.

How many bad coaches should one GM be allowed to hire??

How many coaches can a GM be allowed to hire without a decent interview process?

Since 2000 Flames have hired more coaches than any other team in the NHL. (11)

Should this GM even be allowed to hire the next coach??

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Well instead of Bennett and Tkachuk we take the Nylander bros.  Get a couple RHS but become softer than butter.  Are we really better in that situation?  Who else?  Robert Thomas instead of Valimaki?  similar production this year, not sure this years version of Thomas is helping a team that can't score.  But I don't really know who else are the stud RHS that we've missed out on over the past 5 years.  

 

When there is a big talent gap, you have to take the better player.  But round 2 and beyond, the difference between one player and the next is not so great.  Rasmus Andersson was a great pick for example.  He had fitness concerns in his draft year but took care of those.

[The_People1]

14 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

This GM has at best a dismal record of coaching hires.

How many bad coaches should one GM be allowed to hire??

How many coaches can a GM be allowed to hire without a decent interview process?

Since 2000 Flames have hired more coaches than any other team in the NHL. (11)

Should this GM even be allowed to hire the next coach??

 

Well can't blame Bill Peters on BT though.  He was a good coach but nobody knew he had a dark past.

 

He inherited Hartley and graduated Ward to Head Coach on his player's advice.  Players said to have liked Ward following the playoffs.  So really, he only has Gulutzan to blame.

 

I don't mind giving him one more BUT, depends on where we are going as a team after this season.  If we want to win, then we better get a new coach fast.  If we want to tank, just keep Ward.  At least the players like him.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I must admit, Schneider's ceiling is not evidently high right now so there is that.   But then we'd be getting into the Askarov discussion.   We didn't have to downgrade, we could have upgraded haha

 

The reason BT signed Troy Brouwer at the time was because we didn't have any RHS RWs (and partly because we needed some toughness).  Brouwer was the best RHS RW on the market that we could afford and we over paid big time.  We played Brouwer with Monahan and it was clear immediately that this combo couldn't recapture the Toews-Brouwer magic.

 

After buying Brouwer out, we still needed a RW because we never draft them ourselves, so we overpaid for an LHS RW in Neal.  

 

We even traded Hamilton in large part because we wanted Lindholm, a RHS RW.

 

And after Ward decides Lindholm should play Center, we got so desperate we took a flyer on Leivo and Simon.

 

If BT's tenure ends this season, then I would sum up his biggest failure as the failure to get RHSs in the lineup.

[jjgallow]

40 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

The reason BT signed Troy Brouwer at the time was because we didn't have any RHS RWs (and partly because we needed some toughness).  Brouwer was the best RHS RW on the market that we could afford and we over paid big time.  We played Brouwer with Monahan and it was clear immediately that this combo couldn't recapture the Toews-Brouwer magic.

 

After buying Brouwer out, we still needed a RW because we never draft them ourselves, so we overpaid for an LHS RW in Neal.  

 

We even traded Hamilton in large part because we wanted Lindholm, a RHS RW.

 

And after Ward decides Lindholm should play Center, we got so desperate we took a flyer on Leivo and Simon.

 

If BT's tenure ends this season, then I would sum up his biggest failure as the failure to get RHSs in the lineup.

 

It's a bad look now but if the NHL ever bans the right side of the ice BT will be the #1 sought after GM.

[robrob74]

Not to say Demko was ever going to be the answer, but boy does going for a horrible pick in McDonald look really bad. Maybe we would’ve botched Demko’s development, but it could’ve been a good pick, which a lot on here were  left wondering, WTF after the pick...

 

if Bennett panned out, I guess the lineup would look a lot different too. I loved the pick but I think the moment Ward played him on the 4th line he checked out. Not too much BT could do but rewind the tape to actually develop the guy. 

[travel_dude]

15 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Not to say Demko was ever going to be the answer, but boy does going for a horrible pick in McDonald look really bad. Maybe we would’ve botched Demko’s development, but it could’ve been a good pick, which a lot on here were  left wondering, WTF after the pick...

 

if Bennett panned out, I guess the lineup would look a lot different too. I loved the pick but I think the moment Ward played him on the 4th line he checked out. Not too much BT could do but rewind the tape to actually develop the guy. 

 

Hard to pin the 2014 draft on BT.

He was freshly hired in April.

Burkie was all over the draft.

 

Regardless, there were a lot of misses in that draft.

Pasta going in the 20's.

Point in the 3rd.

 

Ward continued the same thing with Bennett that BP did, use Ryan at C until the playoffs had Ryan losing his spot due to "injury".

This season was no diferent in that someone else got the nod for 3C.

He either had to play 4C or on Backlund's wing.

He did neither well.

 

As far as development, what would have time in the AHL have done?

Not much, I think.

He played a certain way from day 1.

Maybe if they didn't put Granlund at C, it might have improved his C game.

But, I suspect Bennett wanted to be the gritty forward and never developed the skills needed to take the next step.