The_People1 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 You might want to read the post by CheersMan. Since the SC became the exclusive property/championship trophy of the NHL no team that didn't qualify for the playoffs have won it. True in any era. True. But only 1 in 16 teams who make the playoffs win the Cup. In his own comparison, 1 in 5 first overall picks win Cups but somehow he argues those odds are worse than simply making the playoffs. I think the link between drafting top 2 and the cup winners is simple, you need elite/game breaking talent to win a cup. Especially in the cap era where the salary cap has brought so much parity you simply cannot win a cup, IMO at least, if you don't have a player that can take over a game and typically you get those only at the top of the draft. So I get the link but I don't think it's necessarily required it's just the trend we have seen, just like how in the early 2000s you weren't wining a cup without an all star goalie. Trends come and go and I think eventually the cap is going to stop going up so quickly, draft gets deeper and talent become available. The flames potentially have Gaudrea and Bennet that could be those players so I think as it stands the flames have potential to have those pieces so I'm not overly concerned about not having a top 2 pick. The trend in the early 2000s was you needed an All Star goalie to win the Cup. So, imagine you are managing a team in the 2000s and you refused to get an all star goalie. That basically means you are refusing to win the Cup. The trend post-2004 is you need a top 2 pick. If you are refusing the trend, then you are refusing to win the Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 True. But only 1 in 16 teams who make the playoffs win the Cup. In his own comparison, 1 in 5 first overall picks win Cups but somehow he argues those odds are worse than simply making the playoffs. The trend in the early 2000s was you needed an All Star goalie to win the Cup. So, imagine you are managing a team in the 2000s and you refused to get an all star goalie. That basically means you are refusing to win the Cup. The trend post-2004 is you need a top 2 pick. If you are refusing the trend, then you are refusing to win the Cup. Missed the point. What I meant was trends change and IMO the needing a top 2 pick will change too because drafts are getting deeper and the economy is weakening which is going to allow more talent to be up for grabs. The flames got Bennet at 4 and be would comparable to a lot of top 2 talent. I'm not ignoring the trend I'm saying it's just that a trend and tends will and always do change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_henning Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Its hard to project where our draftees will wind up in 5 or 10 years from now (assuming they stay with the team). But honestly, looking at our picks now, Monahan, Gardeau, Bennett and Poirier all have the potential to be the best player (or players) of their draft classes. We may not have had a top two pick, but the question will be if we need one in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Missed the point. What I meant was trends change and IMO the needing a top 2 pick will change too because drafts are getting deeper and the economy is weakening which is going to allow more talent to be up for grabs. The flames got Bennet at 4 and be would comparable to a lot of top 2 talent. I'm not ignoring the trend I'm saying it's just that a trend and tends will and always do change. Of course trends change. It needs no explanation. Your point is, since trends change, we shouldn't chase it. My point is, we're currently inside the trend so let's take full advantage of it. Furthermore, one day the trend may change to something like the necessity to have two 50-point scoring Dmen on a roster in order to win a Cup. If so, then that's what i will advocate as a strategy to win the Cup. I will change too once the trend changes. Will you ignore the next trend too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Of course trends change. It needs no explanation. Your point is, since trends change, we shouldn't chase it. My point is, we're currently inside the trend so let's take full advantage of it. Furthermore, one day the trend may change to something like the necessity to have two 50-point scoring Dmen on a roster in order to win a Cup. If so, then that's what i will advocate as a strategy to win the Cup. I will change too once the trend changes. Will you ignore the next trend too? Depends on what it is. Problem is that picking in the top 2 is not an option for the flames. How do you suggest they go from where they are right now to picking in the top 2? You make it seem like anyone can pick in the top 2 but it's not that simple. The flames don't have th option of drafting in the top 2, without doing irreparable harm to their franchise, so they need to buck the trend. You can't always be so rigid as to follow the popular trend especially when the trend involves something that is not easily attainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 True. But only 1 in 16 teams who make the playoffs win the Cup. In his own comparison, 1 in 5 first overall picks win Cups but somehow he argues those odds are worse than simply making the playoffs. The trend in the early 2000s was you needed an All Star goalie to win the Cup. So, imagine you are managing a team in the 2000s and you refused to get an all star goalie. That basically means you are refusing to win the Cup. The trend post-2004 is you need a top 2 pick. If you are refusing the trend, then you are refusing to win the Cup. The 1 trend that won't change is that if you don't qualify for the playoffs you have 0% chance of moving on to the next round or get on a hot streak & advance to the SCF. You might not remember but some SCs have been won (or lost) on a lucky bounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 If Byron ever scores a breakaway goal the Flames will make the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreckening Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 If Byron ever scores a breakaway goal the Flames will make the playoffs. I'm not liking those odds right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think it's time to rethink a few players. Raymond hasn't done a thing, Byron has iron hands. Bollig isn't doing much, although it's his job to be an energy guy when he's on. The team just didn't bring their speed and the Wild were content to letting them play the outside. Anything going inside, the Dub stopped. I don't like the bottom 6. We need a bit more energy from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_henning Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I have to at least give Byron points for trying, but someone needs to spend like a week working with him on nothing but scoring on breakaways. (Can you imagine how many points he'd put up if he did?) Why on earth Raymond or Bollig have seen any ice time in 2015 boggles my mind . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Raymond does the same thing every game. He skates the puck in, skates it wide, around the net and then loses it on the other hash mark. Or makes a pass and it's off going the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I have to at least give Byron points for trying, but someone needs to spend like a week working with him on nothing but scoring on breakaways. (Can you imagine how many points he'd put up if he did?) Why on earth Raymond or Bollig have seen any ice time in 2015 boggles my mind . Sure he tries. That is usually the sign of someone with little talent; they try too hard most times. Do you want to waste development/coaching time on a guy that is this long in the league? Is he an important piece moving forward? I would rather see Sven miss a goal on a breakaway. He stands a better chance of scoring, and he is supposed to be part of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 7 segments complete. One point back of target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 7 segments complete. One point back of target. I was really hoping for at least a point tonight. Next set is Edmonton, Winnipeg, San Jose, Pittsburgh, San Jose, LA. Really tough set. At least we should start it off with a win. The next two are pretty tough in fact. At least we will have a great idea about our chances by the deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xstrike Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Sure he tries. That is usually the sign of someone with little talent; they try too hard most times. Do you want to waste development/coaching time on a guy that is this long in the league? Is he an important piece moving forward? I would rather see Sven miss a goal on a breakaway. He stands a better chance of scoring, and he is supposed to be part of the future. You know something. You're never too old to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Sure he tries. That is usually the sign of someone with little talent; they try too hard most times. Do you want to waste development/coaching time on a guy that is this long in the league? Is he an important piece moving forward? I would rather see Sven miss a goal on a breakaway. He stands a better chance of scoring, and he is supposed to be part of the future. I will agree that Bryon may have issues scoring but his 100 % effort ever night is something Sven doesn't have. When Sven plays with the effort ever night like Byron, he will be on the roster. Good teams find away to win key games, SJ wins last night, Minny wins last night, 7/8 of our team was invisible last night. When the 2 smallest guys on the team are your biggest players your in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Even if Calgary wasn't in a playoff spot, they wouldn't be close to the bottom two. Buffalo and Edmonton are in a battle to the death to get the top pick. We would never be able to be as good at losing as those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Hopefully Baertschi is developing a better two way game. Will he ever have Byron's speed or anticipation maybe not but he has talents beyond what Byron brings. If players wanting to crack an NHL line up want to measure what it takes they should watch Gaudreau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 ^ Sven's issues are not his offensive talents it is his heart, desire to go to any end to win. If JH doesn't have exceptional hockey IQ he wouldn't make it either. Other than scoring what does Byron not do? This kid is 5'8 and plays harder faster and stronger than any guy on our club. Byron is the least of concerns, If they played with his heart and desire we would be one hell of a hockey club. We have bigger plugs to worry about, Raymond, Bolig, Engelland, Smid, Diaz. At least Byron creates is 100% more effective than what the other's I mentioned have can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Even if Calgary wasn't in a playoff spot, they wouldn't be close to the bottom two. Buffalo and Edmonton are in a battle to the death to get the top pick. We would never be able to be as good at losing as those two. Oh there is no doubt. The debate is can we make the playoffs. I am trying to stay optimistic and say yes, but believe we fall short because of lack of depth. Regardless of the out come we have surpassed any exceptions I had for the team this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Depends on what it is. Problem is that picking in the top 2 is not an option for the flames. How do you suggest they go from where they are right now to picking in the top 2? You make it seem like anyone can pick in the top 2 but it's not that simple. The flames don't have th option of drafting in the top 2, without doing irreparable harm to their franchise, so they need to buck the trend. You can't always be so rigid as to follow the popular trend especially when the trend involves something that is not easily attainable. I think the Flames will make the playoffs this season. I just don't think they "should." The 1 trend that won't change is that if you don't qualify for the playoffs you have 0% chance of moving on to the next round or get on a hot streak & advance to the SCF. You might not remember but some SCs have been won (or lost) on a lucky bounce. If any team wins the Cup this year without drafting in the Top 2, then this will be my head... And then i'll be like, "WOW WE DON'T REQUIRE A TOP 2 PICK TO WIN A CUP!" And then i will just be a crazy Flames fan cheering for wins knowing we can win the Cup without ever having to tank to the bottom... BUT, if a team wins the Cup again this season having drafted in the Top 2, how many of you guys would have the open mind to look at things a bit differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Even if Calgary wasn't in a playoff spot, they wouldn't be close to the bottom two. Buffalo and Edmonton are in a battle to the death to get the top pick. We would never be able to be as good at losing as those two. Laughed so hard when I saw this The beauty of this year's lottery is that there is a 66.5% chance that Neither of them will get McDavid. And that's good. Because there is absolutely no doubt that Buffalo is losing on purpose. Personally, I believe Edmonton is too. The unfortunate part is that one of them will still undeservedly get Eichel. Boo. Will we have a shot at McDavid? Pretty much yes. 14 teams will. We'll be one of them. Keep in mind that if we're drafting top 10, we'll have a shot at the likes of Dylan Strome and Hanifan. These are potential superstars. (wow, could we ever use Hanifan). We ain't gonna make the playoffs this year. We are probably going to have a very exciting draft. Next year, I really believe we'll have out true coming-out party in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the Flames will make the playoffs this season. I just don't think they "should." Loved your post. Why do you think we'll make the playoffs this year though? We've been dropping steadily. I would argue that both Monahan and Sam Bennett are roughly equivalent to drafting in the top 2. Monahan, because we just plain lucked out on how good he really was. Bennett, because he was ranked first overall, but dropped at the last minute due to "chin-up difficulties", which turned out to be a shoulder issue that has now been resolved. Either way, I still agree with you that this does Not guarantee us a cup. We need one more strong draft. Then, and only then, we can start to get excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Laughed so hard when I saw this The beauty of this year's lottery is that there is a 66.5% chance that Neither of them will get McDavid. And that's good. Because there is absolutely no doubt that Buffalo is losing on purpose. Personally, I believe Edmonton is too. The unfortunate part is that one of them will still undeservedly get Eichel. Boo. Will we have a shot at McDavid? Pretty much yes. 14 teams will. We'll be one of them. Keep in mind that if we're drafting top 10, we'll have a shot at the likes of Dylan Strome and Hanifan. These are potential superstars. (wow, could we ever use Hanifan). We ain't gonna make the playoffs this year. We are probably going to have a very exciting draft. Next year, I really believe we'll have out true coming-out party in the NHL. I agree we could really use Hanifin, there were times at the WJC where he looked so smooth out there and there were time where he looked like he was too nonchalant, he kind of reminded me Jay Bouwmeester. I am actually getting pretty excited to see Oliver Kylington fall on some draft rankings, to the point where he is outside of the top 10 on a lot of lists, if we could snag him in the first round I would be beyond happy. I think he is another Erik Karlsson, I still have him in the top 5 on my list. I think we will be drafting outside the top 10 unless we win the lottery. What I am hoping for is that we draft 30th overall this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulstad Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the Flames will make the playoffs this season. I just don't think they "should." If any team wins the Cup this year without drafting in the Top 2, then this will be my head... And then i'll be like, "WOW WE DON'T REQUIRE A TOP 2 PICK TO WIN A CUP!" And then i will just be a crazy Flames fan cheering for wins knowing we can win the Cup without ever having to tank to the bottom... BUT, if a team wins the Cup again this season having drafted in the Top 2, how many of you guys would have the open mind to look at things a bit differently? I'll take this bet. Just for clarification purposes, how far back in draft history are we going to justify the "drafted in the top 2" statement? Last year? Last 5 years? Last 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.