Flames Defense

[MAC331]

I agree and disagree with that. It still isn't a recipe for success to have your goalie bail you out for the first period. Also, in 2014/15 we had what, the second most comebacks in the league when trailing after the second period? That also isn't a recipe for success.

They did give us a chance to win and was a main reason we got to the playoffs that year. But on top of that, both LA and San Jose had bad years and should've made it but didn't. I don't think our play is well enough as a team and it is just not sustainable.

It was proven this year. While a goalie gets us close, the play has to be better. I love it when the team is engaged and playing well. But that was the case in a handful of games only.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to get a good and great goalie, but the team needs a lot of improvement as a whole.

That's part of a building team, we are just not there yet. A goalie will be a good add though. We will be closer to a playoff spot with one for sure...

But team defense needs to be addressed too.

For all intent and purpose the team should be better if not just from the gained experience this season. Playing and growing together helps for sure. I have little doubt there will be changes in our net, hopefully for the better. I want to see a much better puck possession game from our guys next season.

[robrob1974]

Ya, we will get better as the players we have now grow and add new pieces to them...

[travel_dude]

I agree and disagree with that. It still isn't a recipe for success to have your goalie bail you out for the first period. Also, in 2014/15 we had what, the second most comebacks in the league when trailing after the second period? That also isn't a recipe for success.

They did give us a chance to win and was a main reason we got to the playoffs that year. But on top of that, both LA and San Jose had bad years and should've made it but didn't. I don't think our play is well enough as a team and it is just not sustainable.

It was proven this year. While a goalie gets us close, the play has to be better. I love it when the team is engaged and playing well. But that was the case in a handful of games only.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to get a good and great goalie, but the team needs a lot of improvement as a whole.

 

5 more wins this year and we would have been in the final WC spot.  At least 5 games where the goaltending completely let us down. Bailing us out in the 1st period and managing to stop more than 2/5 shots is a big difference.  To a certain extent, we had neither this year.  Yes, we had some bad goaltending last year that required us to make a 3rd period comeback.  Yes, we also lost Gio for a big stretch.  The defense was sufficient as well as the goaltending.

 

Last year 97 points was 8th in the West (actually 3rd in Pacific).  This year 87 was enough to get in.  There were enough losing stretches this season that could simply had been avoided with good goaltending; winless at home to start season, multiple losing streaks, post-Ramo injury results....

 

If you compare results against the Kings, Oilers and Coyotes alone, you can easily see games where goalies made a huge difference last year.  

[robrob1974]

You can say, 5 more wins all you want. Sure, the standings say that, but if we were close to a spot, other teams would have started backups or taken us less lightly at the end of the year.

This year was odd when it comes to everything. Would other teams have changed how they played in their games too if our team was closer?

Fact is, we didn't make it, we were 5th worst in the league for a reason, and it's not just goaltending.

Plus, even other teams played better for the most part. As parity gets spread, it's going to be harder to make it.

Sure the other teams are going to fall as we rise, but there's going to be a time when everyone might be close together.

[travel_dude]

You can say, 5 more wins all you want. Sure, the standings say that, but if we were close to a spot, other teams would have started backups or taken us less lightly at the end of the year.

This year was odd when it comes to everything. Would other teams have changed how they played in their games too if our team was closer?

Fact is, we didn't make it, we were 5th worst in the league for a reason, and it's not just goaltending.

Plus, even other teams played better for the most part. As parity gets spread, it's going to be harder to make it.

Sure the other teams are going to fall as we rise, but there's going to be a time when everyone might be close together.

 

It's funny, but I don't recall teams starting their backup because the games were meaningless against us.  ANA, LA, CHI, Minny, BOS, etc were all in dogfights to get points.  Losing 5-2 to Toronto (5 goals on 26 shots), 8-3 to Anaheim (8 goals on 27 shots), 6-2 to Minny (6 goals on 29 shots), 5-4 (4 goals on 26 shots - SOL) to LA are just some examples of games that were winnable.  

 

You can point to any one of those games and blame goaltending.  Not entirely, but lets face it, they were winnable with a decent goalie in nets.  

[robrob1974]

How many games down the stretch did we win where the other teams seemed to be into playing it? its a lot different when we are closer to a spot.

[Flyerfan52]

Ya, we will get better as the players we have now grow and add new pieces to them...

How long have Oilers fans said that?

So long I haven't kept track.

[travel_dude]

How many games down the stretch did we win where the other teams seemed to be into playing it? its a lot different when we are closer to a spot.

 

You can say that playing a spoiler props up a team.  Don't you think Vancouver and EDM were motivated?  In the last 20 games of the season, we went 9-8-3.  We lost to non playoff teams in that stretch, such as Buffalo, Toronto, Arizona, and Colorado (OTL).  None of those games saw the Flames have good goaltending.

[420since1974]

In a season of negatives for the Flames defense-men, there were some positives:

 

Brodie, Giordano & Hamilton all had career years for points.

 

Engelland showed that moving up to 2nd pairing while Gio was out last season was not a fluke. He can fill in if injuries dictate it.

 

Jokipakka was better than advertised, a 7th D who didn't look totally out of place when played at # 4.

 

Kulak, Nakladal, & Wotherspoon all got decent looks at the NHL. They can all fill the 5th - 7th roles when they open.

 

Kylington & Sieloff at least got a taste of The Show.

 

 

I'm not worried about replacing the bottom 4 D when Engelland, Smid, & Wideman are all gone by the end of 2016/2017 at the latest.

[DirtyDeeds]

In a season of negatives for the Flames defense-men, there were some positives:

 

Brodie, Giordano & Hamilton all had career years for points.

 

Engelland showed that moving up to 2nd pairing while Gio was out last season was not a fluke. He can fill in if injuries dictate it.

 

Jokipakka was better than advertised, a 7th D who didn't look totally out of place when played at # 4.

 

Kulak, Nakladal, & Wotherspoon all got decent looks at the NHL. They can all fill the 5th - 7th roles when they open.

 

Kylington & Sieloff at least got a taste of The Show.

 

 

I'm not worried about replacing the bottom 4 D when Engelland, Smid, & Wideman are all gone by the end of 2016/2017 at the latest.

It just seems strange to me that when 1/2 your D has career years (2 of them again) that some posters here want to point fingers at the D to deflect/dilute down the problems we had with  goaltending.

 

Add to that the stats posters who said all the players last season was a one off and would not happen again. Yet you can add JH and Money to that "pretty much another career year" too.

[xstrike]

In a season of negatives for the Flames defense-men, there were some positives:

 

Brodie, Giordano & Hamilton all had career years for points.

 

Engelland showed that moving up to 2nd pairing while Gio was out last season was not a fluke. He can fill in if injuries dictate it.

 

Jokipakka was better than advertised, a 7th D who didn't look totally out of place when played at # 4.

 

Kulak, Nakladal, & Wotherspoon all got decent looks at the NHL. They can all fill the 5th - 7th roles when they open.

 

Kylington & Sieloff at least got a taste of The Show.

 

 

I'm not worried about replacing the bottom 4 D when Engelland, Smid, & Wideman are all gone by the end of 2016/2017 at the latest.

Joki and Ky were the most impressive for me of the newbies.

 

I didn't know who Kevin was besides he had a hard name to pronounce correctly. I'm not sure many here did know much about him. He didn't seem out of place though. For a 24-y-o d-man, playing top 4, that's not bad. It's not bad at all.

 

Ky, in his very limited showing, isn't ready for the NHL. He's very raw, but how many 18-y-o defenceman aren't? What I do like is his skating skills. That and in the rawness, I see some tools that can be sharpened and honed with time and effort. Tools that could produce a good D-man. He fell in the draft, so getting him with a lesser pick is just even better if he turns out.

 

Btw, Joki's a 7th round picks. according to TSN, a 7th round pick only has a 9.2% chance of playing at least 100 games in the NHL. Joki is up to 91 now. Btw, is he expansion draft eligible for this season or next?

[kehatch]

It just seems strange to me that when 1/2 your D has career years (2 of them again) that some posters here want to point fingers at the D to deflect/dilute down the problems we had with goaltending.

Add to that the stats posters who said all the players last season was a one off and would not happen again. Yet you can add JH and Money to that "pretty much another career year" too.

On the first paragraph, totally agree.

On the second, I didn't see anyone say that. There were a lot of concerns with guys like Wideman and Hudler being able to duplicate their seasons and the possibility of team regression, but that's another topic!

[travel_dude]

On the first paragraph, totally agree.

On the second, I didn't see anyone say that. There were a lot of concerns with guys like Wideman and Hudler being able to duplicate their seasons and the possibility of team regression, but that's another topic!

 

I feel like I keep having to argue that goaltending was the biggest reason for downfall.  Hudler fell off a cliff, but still managed to add offense.  What it did show was that Johnny didn't need him anymore.  Wideman was bad in more ways than one, but his offense was replaced by Hamilton and Gio's full seasons.  

 

I would argue (as I am apt to do ) that regression was due to league putrid goaltending.  Sure the PP suffered by Hudler and Wideman not scoring, but they were eventually replaced by others (once Hamilton played some PP minutes).  Oops, I seem to be getting into another topic about regression. 

[MAC331]

I feel like I keep having to argue that goaltending was the biggest reason for downfall.  Hudler fell off a cliff, but still managed to add offense.  What it did show was that Johnny didn't need him anymore.  Wideman was bad in more ways than one, but his offense was replaced by Hamilton and Gio's full seasons.  

 

I would argue (as I am apt to do ) that regression was due to league putrid goaltending.  Sure the PP suffered by Hudler and Wideman not scoring, but they were eventually replaced by others (once Hamilton played some PP minutes).  Oops, I seem to be getting into another topic about regression. 

The mental mistake fans make is they think their team will pick up right where they left off from the season previously. Enough has been said about everything going right for us in 2014/15 and the opposite for 2015/16. The positives are our core players advanced their play and some of the role players established themselves. We did well with the TDL trades and we found some prospects that proved effective and reliable. I would say goaltending was not good all season but the other parts of our game were 50/50 with improvement on display in the last few months.

[cross16]

It just seems strange to me that when 1/2 your D has career years (2 of them again) that some posters here want to point fingers at the D to deflect/dilute down the problems we had with  goaltending.

 

 

What is funny too in that in most of the stats I like to look at for looking at a team's defensive play, the Flames actually improved form last year to this year.  From a 5 on 5 perspective The Flames saw an increase in their Corsi and saw a reduction in shots against, scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against. IMO, the Flames played better defence 5 on 5 than they did the previous season.

 

Goaltending and PK is your down fall IMO, not the play 5 on 5. The PK saw a huge jump in shots against, scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against, a HUGE jump. The Flames gave up 100 more scoring chances against on the PK this year than they did last year. That's not goaltending either thats on you PK unit. 

 

I do agree though goaltending is the biggest culprit its just not the only one as most have said. I think if this team can improve goaltending and fix their pK you'll see their GA fail quite a bit. 5 on 5 Team defence is not one of the bigger issues here. 

[robrob1974]

But what i see on the ice is different and maybe I am too critical that the flames are too easy to play against. They start slow and get behind. Sure the goalie needs to make a save, but if you're constantly making the goalie work it is bound to happen. Stats may be better, but what I see isn't necessarily the case. We aren't dominating and tiring teams out. There's no real cycle for the most part. Sure we've gotten a bit better. But I don't want to mask the play with goaltending the way the Rangers and the Canadiens do. I'd love to have good goaltending, but I also want a better team game. Optics look different in my eye is all I am saying. Part of that is goaltending. I think we still miss the playoffs with better goaltending.

I just don't think the play is good enough yet, and that's due to the holes in the lineup. The goaltending is one of those holes. The team play has improved, I get it. I just think we miss the playoffs by 1-3 points had we had better goaltending.

We'd still get bounced in the 1st round if we made it. We don't have enough to beat the bigger teams in a 7 game series.

[cross16]

But what i see on the ice is different and maybe I am too critical that the flames are too easy to play against. They start slow and get behind. Sure the goalie needs to make a save, but if you're constantly making the goalie work it is bound to happen. Stats may be better, but what I see isn't necessarily the case. We aren't dominating and tiring teams out. There's no real cycle for the most part. Sure we've gotten a bit better. But I don't want to mask the play with goaltending the way the Rangers and the Canadiens do. I'd love to have good goaltending, but I also want a better team game. Optics look different in my eye is all I am saying. Part of that is goaltending. I think we still miss the playoffs with better goaltending.

I just don't think the play is good enough yet, and that's due to the holes in the lineup. The goaltending is one of those holes. The team play has improved, I get it. I just think we miss the playoffs by 1-3 points had we had better goaltending.

We'd still get bounced in the 1st round if we made it. We don't have enough to beat the bigger teams in a 7 game series.

 

 

I don't think anyone, i'm certainly not, is making the case that the Flames are a contender or anything with better goaltending. I think the only theory out there is that with better goaltending the Flames are either a playoff team, or were very close to it. 

 

Doesn't make them a contender and I agree improvement is needed to get there. However, you get some people who think the Flames are destined to pick low for several more years and I don't think that is the case. They arn't that far away from being a perennial playoff team and you need to get there before you can be a contender, that is my belief anyway. 

[manu11]

What is funny too in that in most of the stats I like to look at for looking at a team's defensive play, the Flames actually improved form last year to this year.  From a 5 on 5 perspective The Flames saw an increase in their Corsi and saw a reduction in shots against, scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against. IMO, the Flames played better defence 5 on 5 than they did the previous season.

 

Goaltending and PK is your down fall IMO, not the play 5 on 5. The PK saw a huge jump in shots against, scoring chances against and high danger scoring chances against, a HUGE jump. The Flames gave up 100 more scoring chances against on the PK this year than they did last year. That's not goaltending either thats on you PK unit. 

 

I do agree though goaltending is the biggest culprit its just not the only one as most have said. I think if this team can improve goaltending and fix their pK you'll see their GA fail quite a bit. 5 on 5 Team defence is not one of the bigger issues here. 

 

Just to add to the PK part, the Flames also had an increase of roughly 20% in minor penalties compared to the 14-15 season. That may have also been a part of the PK problems. 

 

[travel_dude]

Just to add to the PK part, the Flames also had an increase of roughly 20% in minor penalties compared to the 14-15 season. That may have also been a part of the PK problems. 

 

 

Well the increase started in February.  Prior to that we took less penalties but were terrible on the PK.  Right after Wideman was suspended, we had games where we took 7 penalties.  More than one.  After the suspension, we still had way too many, but we started killing off more.  

[cross16]

Just to add to the PK part, the Flames also had an increase of roughly 20% in minor penalties compared to the 14-15 season. That may have also been a part of the PK problems.

It didn't help but they were still the 5th least penalized team in the league and even last year their PK wasn't very good they just got away with it by being disciplined. PK is still a very large problem IMO.

[manu11]

It didn't help but they were still the 5th least penalized team in the league and even last year their PK wasn't very good they just got away with it by being disciplined. PK is still a very large problem IMO.

 

Oh you're right! Question is whats the main problem , the quality of players or is it the pk system?

Among our forwards you have the Backlund-Frolik duo, then a strong 4th line center with a healthy Bouma and then Monahan & someone. that should give you 3 quality pk units.

I would have really liked to add a Gunnarson to our lineup, but that ship has sailed. And unless we trade Wideman, I don't see us adding a top4 d-man.

[jjgallow]

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2016/6/1/11834438/rangers-opt-not-to-sign-three-2014-draft-picks

 

Rangers have Mantha all wrong, IMHO.

 

I'm not saying he's top line material necessarily.   But not someone you let go. 

 

He was dominant in the playoffs this year.   Yes, his regular season sucked.    But I put a lot more weight on his playoff performance.

 

 

I'd like to see them offer him a contract.  An AHL deal at the least, and I don't think a 2-way would be out of the question.

[MAC331]

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2016/6/1/11834438/rangers-opt-not-to-sign-three-2014-draft-picks

 

Rangers have Mantha all wrong, IMHO.

 

I'm not saying he's top line material necessarily.   But not someone you let go. 

 

He was dominant in the playoffs this year.   Yes, his regular season sucked.    But I put a lot more weight on his playoff performance.

 

 

I'd like to see them offer him a contract.  An AHL deal at the least, and I don't think a 2-way would be out of the question.

Reading between the lines would there be a need in NY for Wideman and prospect Morrison for K Hayes maybe ? they need RHSD.

[jjgallow]

Reading between the lines would there be a need in NY for Wideman and prospect Morrison for K Hayes maybe ? they need RHSD.

 

who would we want back?

[travel_dude]

Reading between the lines would there be a need in NY for Wideman and prospect Morrison for K Hayes maybe ? they need RHSD.

 

who would we want back?

 

Answered before you asked.

 

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2016/6/1/11834438/rangers-opt-not-to-sign-three-2014-draft-picks

 

Rangers have Mantha all wrong, IMHO.

 

I'm not saying he's top line material necessarily.   But not someone you let go. 

 

He was dominant in the playoffs this year.   Yes, his regular season sucked.    But I put a lot more weight on his playoff performance.

 

 

I'd like to see them offer him a contract.  An AHL deal at the least, and I don't think a 2-way would be out of the question.

 

I read the article, but another one said the Rags had until June 2018 to tender an offer, since he was drafted out of the USHL.  Not sure which is more credible.