Flames Defense

[travel_dude]

22 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Where is the faith, these guys won't be traded because we will be a playoff team at TDL and we will need all hands on deck.

 

I know what you are saying, but if there is a way to trade expiring contracts that help the team longer term, the deal will be made.  Teams will be looking to get rid of NMC's (if possible) to protect other players.  Other teams will simply want to get rid of players for something in return.  We may be both buyers and sellers.

[cross16]

Really depends on whether other people can step up. Right now Engelland and Wideman are top 4 blueliners for this club and IMO there is no way Treliving trades a top 4 blueliner on a team that has a chance to compete for the playoffs.

 

I get he traded Glencross and we can discuss that, but its significantly easier to trade a 3rd line forwrad (which Glencross was at the time) on a playoff bound team then it is a top 4 blueliner or even a top 6 blueliner. Not to mention, much easier to trade someone when a club overpays, not so sure clubs are going to be overpaying for Engelland and Wideman. I think the chances they get dealt at the TDL are very small if the Flames are in it. 

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Really depends on whether other people can step up. Right now Engelland and Wideman are top 4 blueliners for this club and IMO there is no way Treliving trades a top 4 blueliner on a team that has a chance to compete for the playoffs.

 

I get he traded Glencross and we can discuss that, but its significantly easier to trade a 3rd line forwrad (which Glencross was at the time) on a playoff bound team then it is a top 4 blueliner or even a top 6 blueliner. Not to mention, much easier to trade someone when a club overpays, not so sure clubs are going to be overpaying for Engelland and Wideman. I think the chances they get dealt at the TDL are very small if the Flames are in it. 

 

I guess it really depends on where the pairings are by TDL.  If Engelland and Wideman are 3rd pair, then they will be one or both moved.  The cost of a $5.25m D at that time is significantly more affordable then, for teams that have had cap space all along.  The other thing is the performance of the other depth players or prospects.  

 

Depth players are currency in the NHL.  Having two RHS D-men that can fill in or be top 4 is worth a lot.  Tempting as it may be to go all in on the playoffs, a smart GM will look at longer team needs as much.  Losing both Wideman and Engelland for nothing is a big risk.  If all you get back is draft picks, then BT will not likely pull the trigger.

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I guess it really depends on where the pairings are by TDL.  If Engelland and Wideman are 3rd pair, then they will be one or both moved.  The cost of a $5.25m D at that time is significantly more affordable then, for teams that have had cap space all along.  The other thing is the performance of the other depth players or prospects.  

 

Depth players are currency in the NHL.  Having two RHS D-men that can fill in or be top 4 is worth a lot.  Tempting as it may be to go all in on the playoffs, a smart GM will look at longer team needs as much.  Losing both Wideman and Engelland for nothing is a big risk.  If all you get back is draft picks, then BT will not likely pull the trigger.

 

That's the point though. If they are playing like top 4 dman then maybe you get more but then can you afford to lose them? Not IMO.  If they are playing at a bottom pairing level they really arn't worth anything and I dont' think Treliving is going to value a 3rd round pick more than having Engelland/Wideman on the team for a potetnial playoff run, especially Engelland. The only way these guys get moved IMO is if they fall off the radar to the point where they are constantly in the press box and Treliving can afford to give them up but I also don't suspect that is going to happen. This isn't a deep D core. 

 

I get we'll have to see what happens between now and then but if the Flames are in it I don't suspect you will see them making any "selling" type moves. Glencross was a pretty rare occasion IMO. 

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

Really depends on whether other people can step up. Right now Engelland and Wideman are top 4 blueliners for this club and IMO there is no way Treliving trades a top 4 blueliner on a team that has a chance to compete for the playoffs.

 

I get he traded Glencross and we can discuss that, but its significantly easier to trade a 3rd line forwrad (which Glencross was at the time) on a playoff bound team then it is a top 4 blueliner or even a top 6 blueliner. Not to mention, much easier to trade someone when a club overpays, not so sure clubs are going to be overpaying for Engelland and Wideman. I think the chances they get dealt at the TDL are very small if the Flames are in it. 

I don't know about this, I was shocked at what BT got for Glencross and Russell. BT needs to keep building quality into the pipeline and another good draft loaded up with picks would help to achieve this goal.

[travel_dude]

Not sure of why some thing are being done this way, but I have a few comments.

 

The Flames have stabilized a bit and are winning some games because of goaltending.  Being out-shot and out-chanced but winning the game is fine, as long as it doesn't persist.  There was a stretch where we were outshot 11-1 against Ottawa.  That just can't continue.

 

Engelland played 22 minutes, while Hamilton played 16 minutes.  I'm not really sure why that would make sense.  Wouldn't Brodie and Hamilton be as capable as a pair? Jokipakka and Engelland would be fine together as a pair.  Considering that Hamilton is leading all D-men on the team for scoring, isn't it time to give him minutes more suited to a player of his age and abilities?

[cross16]

Hamilton wasn't playing well in his own zone and hasn't been guilty of too many mental gaffs. I don't think Gulutzan trusts him but he does Engelland who IMO has played well defensively. When you are trying to rebuild a teams defense you need to ride guys you trust. 

I fully expect Hamiltons minutes to increase as the season goes. 

[The_People1]

7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Not sure of why some thing are being done this way, but I have a few comments.

 

The Flames have stabilized a bit and are winning some games because of goaltending.  Being out-shot and out-chanced but winning the game is fine, as long as it doesn't persist.  There was a stretch where we were outshot 11-1 against Ottawa.  That just can't continue.

 

Engelland played 22 minutes, while Hamilton played 16 minutes.  I'm not really sure why that would make sense.  Wouldn't Brodie and Hamilton be as capable as a pair? Jokipakka and Engelland would be fine together as a pair.  Considering that Hamilton is leading all D-men on the team for scoring, isn't it time to give him minutes more suited to a player of his age and abilities?

 

No.  If you only watch stats, then okay Hamilton is our highest scoring Dman who deserves more ice time.  But, if you watch the game, Hamilton needs to get benched for a week with what is obviously sub-NHL decision making with the puck.  We're talking needlessly dangerous plays where some has actually cost us goals against at critical times in a game.  There's an argument to be made for more PP time but definitely no argument to be made for more 5-on-5 time.  He's just not trustworthy (at the moment). 

[420since1974]

Brodie is having a slow start.

He may be having some difficulty adjusting to the new system.

And he is my favorite Flame's D.

 

If Hamilton continues to put up the points as per his last two seasons, I am quite willing to overlook his occasional defensive errors.

Plus, he has been much more aggressive with the body checks during the last three games, it will be nice if he continues in that vein.

 

Gulutzan's new system will take 15 - 20 games before the players have it refined.

Hopefully, the team will be able to compete for a play-off position.

[kehatch]

I am not getting ready Hamilton hate. I have actually liked his game. More aggression. Confidence on offense. Plus he is rounding out his defensive game. 

 

I agree Brodie is having a rough start. To his credit he has been moved from right to left and pair to pair so it must be tough to find a groove. 

[MAC331]

8 minutes ago, kehatch said:

I am not getting ready Hamilton hate. I have actually liked his game. More aggression. Confidence on offense. Plus he is rounding out his defensive game. 

 

I agree Brodie is having a rough start. To his credit he has been moved from right to left and pair to pair so it must be tough to find a groove. 

I agree, just let Brodie settle in somewhere and he will be fine. In regards to the perfectionists on the forum Hamilton is young and doing just fine. Show me any defenseman that doesn't make a few errors within this new game called hockey. I get the feeling we could have the top 6 defensemen in the NHL and some would find the need to find fault and complain.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, kehatch said:

I am not getting ready Hamilton hate. I have actually liked his game. More aggression. Confidence on offense. Plus he is rounding out his defensive game. 

 

I agree Brodie is having a rough start. To his credit he has been moved from right to left and pair to pair so it must be tough to find a groove. 

 

Since Brodie is having a tough start, and since his fancy stats have suffered since being paired with Engelland, wouldn't it make sense to pair him with Hamilton?  After all, we are trying to find the best pairs.  Brodie/Engelland have been okay as a pairing, but they are bleeding out there.  If we are going to use Brodie on the LS, then let's get hm the best d-man, so that the minutes he plays are not spent entirely n the D-zone.

[MAC331]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Since Brodie is having a tough start, and since his fancy stats have suffered since being paired with Engelland, wouldn't it make sense to pair him with Hamilton?  After all, we are trying to find the best pairs.  Brodie/Engelland have been okay as a pairing, but they are bleeding out there.  If we are going to use Brodie on the LS, then let's get hm the best d-man, so that the minutes he plays are not spent entirely n the D-zone.

I think and see where it is Brodie that needs to find himself within these new systems. I don't see it as his partner being the problem. He wasn't doing anything well when he was with Giordano earlier.

[travel_dude]

21 hours ago, MAC331 said:

I think and see where it is Brodie that needs to find himself within these new systems. I don't see it as his partner being the problem. He wasn't doing anything well when he was with Giordano earlier.

 

The two have been better apart.  Together they have not been great.  That is the point.  It doesn't matter if the problem is Brodie or Engelland; the two together have not been a 2nd pairing revelation.  Let him concentrate on shutting down on defense and have Dougie step up on offence.

[kehatch]

Engelland and Brodie didn't work last season and it isn't working this season. 

 

That isn't a knock on Engelland. The pairing just doesn't work. 

[MAC331]

18 minutes ago, kehatch said:

Engelland and Brodie didn't work last season and it isn't working this season. 

 

That isn't a knock on Engelland. The pairing just doesn't work. 

Funny how it goes when you give something more than a few games before you say it doesn't work. They looked good last night and it was mostly because Brodie decided to play some hockey finally. One of the announcers calling the game said something in regards to GG wanting Brodie to play the LS, maybe he wasn't fully committed previously. The pairing can make sense if Engelland stays more at home and let's Brodie enjoy some of his creative freedom.

Jokipakka had a tough time handling the WAS cycle game down low.

[JTech780]

46 minutes ago, kehatch said:

Engelland and Brodie didn't work last season and it isn't working this season. 

 

That isn't a knock on Engelland. The pairing just doesn't work. 

 

To me it has less to do with Engelland this season and more to do with Brodie. He looks like he has taken a step back this year, he isn't making good decisions with the puck, he looks a little bit slower this year, none of that has anything to do with Engelland IMO.

 

Maybe it's because he is playing left side instead of his preferred right side, I'm not sure.

[travel_dude]

28 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

To me it has less to do with Engelland this season and more to do with Brodie. He looks like he has taken a step back this year, he isn't making good decisions with the puck, he looks a little bit slower this year, none of that has anything to do with Engelland IMO.

 

Maybe it's because he is playing left side instead of his preferred right side, I'm not sure.

 

Maybe Brodie just doesn't fit with a less-mobile player like Engelland.  Is Brodie slower in decision making because he has to be ready to skate back to cover?  Engelland is fine when the players he is covering are within reach, but struggles to get back on a transition play.

 

Jokipakka has been more than adequate with Hamilton.  He rarely makes high-risk plays, instead he uses short passes to his mates to move the puck.

 

I have no issue playing Engelland.  He has looked pretty stable this season.  But he is not a 2nd pairing guy that should get close to 20 minutes.  Playing him with Brodie isn't working.  

[JTech780]

16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Maybe Brodie just doesn't fit with a less-mobile player like Engelland.  Is Brodie slower in decision making because he has to be ready to skate back to cover?  Engelland is fine when the players he is covering are within reach, but struggles to get back on a transition play.

 

Jokipakka has been more than adequate with Hamilton.  He rarely makes high-risk plays, instead he uses short passes to his mates to move the puck.

 

I have no issue playing Engelland.  He has looked pretty stable this season.  But he is not a 2nd pairing guy that should get close to 20 minutes.  Playing him with Brodie isn't working.  

 

Brodie has looked just as bad when he is away from Engelland this year. He looks terrible on the PP.

[travel_dude]

7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Brodie has looked just as bad when he is away from Engelland this year. He looks terrible on the PP.

 

I agree about him looking out-of-sorts on the PP.  If you believe in fancy stats, Brodie away from Engelland shows improvement.  I would prefer using Backlund as a 4th forward on the PP, and put a RD out there.   

[cross16]

How is it not working? Flames have been great defensivly and are 3-1 since the current defence pairings have been put together. Is everyone playing at 100%? No but to say it isn't working I think is unfair. Flames are defending quite well right now IMO and that should be the focus. 

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

How is it not working? Flames have been great defensivly and are 3-1 since the current defence pairings have been put together. Is everyone playing at 100%? No but to say it isn't working I think is unfair. Flames are defending quite well right now IMO and that should be the focus. 

 

We were outshot in all but one of these games.  Elliott kept us in it as much as the defense did.  A lot of the credit can be placed on his shoulders.  Strangely enough, the PK has looked a lot better during that stretch and that can at least be shared between the defense and the goalie.

 

A couple of things that have worked with the recent pairings:

- Wideman has looked better defensively

- Jokipakka-Hamilton has been the offensive leading pair and have become more solid defensievly

[cross16]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

We were outshot in all but one of these games.  Elliott kept us in it as much as the defense did.  A lot of the credit can be placed on his shoulders.  Strangely enough, the PK has looked a lot better during that stretch and that can at least be shared between the defense and the goalie.

 

A couple of things that have worked with the recent pairings:

- Wideman has looked better defensively

- Jokipakka-Hamilton has been the offensive leading pair and have become more solid defensievly

 

I don't agree with that. Has Elliott been solid, for sure but has he really stolen a game? Last night did he really make that great a save that kept the Flames in it? I don't think so, he is making the saves you are suppose to make and really outside the toe save in Chicago hasn't really had to make that great a save to keep the Flames in the game.The Flames are doing a really good job of limiting chances in high scoring areas and keeping most of the danger to the outside. Not perfect by any means but doing a solid job of it IMO. Elliott's job hasn't really been too tough lately. 

 

they are getting outshot becuase they arn't transitioniong from D to O very well and they turn the puck over too much in the neutral zone. Their shots for is the problem, not their shots against. 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't agree with that. Has Elliott been solid, for sure but has he really stolen a game? Last night did he really make that great a save that kept the Flames in it? I don't think so, he is making the saves you are suppose to make and really outside the toe save in Chicago hasn't really had to make that great a save to keep the Flames in the game.The Flames are doing a really good job of limiting chances in high scoring areas and keeping most of the danger to the outside. Not perfect by any means but doing a solid job of it IMO. Elliott's job hasn't really been too tough lately. 

 

they are getting outshot becuase they arn't transitioniong from D to O very well and they turn the puck over too much in the neutral zone. Their shots for is the problem, not their shots against. 

It appears a number of things are rounding into shape systems wise and GG is trying to settle in with some consistent pairings and lines now. Everyone has looked a lot better lately.

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't agree with that. Has Elliott been solid, for sure but has he really stolen a game? Last night did he really make that great a save that kept the Flames in it? I don't think so, he is making the saves you are suppose to make and really outside the toe save in Chicago hasn't really had to make that great a save to keep the Flames in the game.The Flames are doing a really good job of limiting chances in high scoring areas and keeping most of the danger to the outside. Not perfect by any means but doing a solid job of it IMO. Elliott's job hasn't really been too tough lately. 

 

You make a good point, but I don't know why you're still focusing on the goalies, even in the defence thread.  There are more Pertinent points to be made, imho, in this thread and topic.

 

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

they are getting outshot becuase they arn't transitioniong from D to O very well and they turn the puck over too much in the neutral zone. Their shots for is the problem, not their shots against. 

 

I agree that we have too many neutral zone turnovers.

 

I'm not able to translate that to not caring about shots against, and seeing shots for as the defensive problem.   We have Numerous defensive issues and this interpretation does not compute for me, imho.