Flames Defense

[kehatch]

Does anyone know how long Brodie is out for, what his injury is?

Mid body and day to day. Possible for tomorrow. Closer then Bennett (who is also day to day and possible for tomorrow.)

[MAC331]

Actually the more I've thought about it the more I'm thinking the flames would be better off trying to split up Gio and Brodie. We've seen them both maintain their play apart and if they are on different pairings you could have one of them on the ice almost all the time. When the Ducks had Pronger-Niedermyer they did that and it was really effective because no matter how good your opposition was you almost always had one of your top dman out there. Would be a lot harder to line match against the flames.

On this note, I have really been impressed with Nakladal's consistent play so far. I wouldn't be afraid to try these pairings for next season if these players are here.

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Nakladal

Jokipakka, Engelland

Wotherspoon

 

Get's everyone playing their proper hand side.

[travel_dude]

On this note, I have really been impressed with Nakladal's consistent play so far. I wouldn't be afraid to try these pairings for next season if these players are here.

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Nakladal

Jokipakka, Engelland

Wotherspoon

 

Get's everyone playing their proper hand side.

 

Wideman sounds like he may have a longer term injury (upper body).  Initial indications from Hartley were "not very good".

So, you are likely to see somebody called up, unless Brodie is good to go Friday.  The Heat play Friday, so that decision will likely happen later today.  It's another emergency callup, with Brodie still not confirmed.

[kehatch]

Nakladal looks good playing really sheltered minutes. Throw him with Giordano and chances are he gets murdered.

[conundrumed]

Nakladal looks good playing really sheltered minutes. Throw him with Giordano and chances are he gets murdered.

That exact thing happened in preseason. Gio was an atrocity to start the season, as we well know.

He REALLY crushed Nakladal's preseason when they paired, it wasn't Nakladal, he was hung out to dry by Gio.

Hopefully, it was only the wrong foot at the time and the lead dmen pull him up this time.

[MAC331]

Nakladal looks good playing really sheltered minutes. Throw him with Giordano and chances are he gets murdered.

The other side is to find out if he doesn't.

[kehatch]

The other side is to find out if he doesn't.

They can experiment sure. Either this season or in the preseason. But you could say that about any player. I personally don't see Nakladal succeeding in the top 4. He lacks the defensive skills to be successful there.

[MAC331]

They can experiment sure. Either this season or in the preseason. But you could say that about any player. I personally don't see Nakladal succeeding in the top 4. He lacks the defensive skills to be successful there.

Really I haven't seen a lack of skills, have you ?

[travel_dude]

They can experiment sure. Either this season or in the preseason. But you could say that about any player. I personally don't see Nakladal succeeding in the top 4. He lacks the defensive skills to be successful there.

 

I think he is stronger on the body than Brodie, but lacks the elite vision and puck sense.  Brodie will take away the puck with finesse, while Nakladal would do it with effort and pinning the player.  BTW, Nakladal isn't sheltered at home, but seems to have been on the road.  By that I mean he gets more D-zone starts than O-zone.

 

I don't see Nakladal as a top 4 on this team, though.  I am fine with the Russell replacement Kevin, as he hasn't hit full stride yet. If you want to audition Nakladal in the top 4, then pair him with Broidie and put Hamilton with Gio.  Alternate who gets the top assignments to see who rises to the top.

[cccsberg]

I think he is stronger on the body than Brodie, but lacks the elite vision and puck sense.  Brodie will take away the puck with finesse, while Nakladal would do it with effort and pinning the player.  BTW, Nakladal isn't sheltered at home, but seems to have been on the road.  By that I mean he gets more D-zone starts than O-zone.

 

I don't see Nakladal as a top 4 on this team, though.  I am fine with the Russell replacement Kevin, as he hasn't hit full stride yet. If you want to audition Nakladal in the top 4, then pair him with Broidie and put Hamilton with Gio.  Alternate who gets the top assignments to see who rises to the top.

Hmm, how do we define Top4 D?  Our D is supposedly one of the best, but the results are not there defensively, just offensively.  Defensively I'd put Nakladal above Hamilton and right around Brodie.  They play differently but both are effective in different ways.  As long as the Flames' focus is on offensive-minded D joining/leading the rush, Nakladal may not be ideal Top4, but that doesn't mean he's not capable as a Top4.  I mean, really.  What do you think Regher was for the Flames, a #6/#7D?

[cross16]

Hmm, how do we define Top4 D?  Our D is supposedly one of the best, but the results are not there defensively, just offensively.  Defensively I'd put Nakladal above Hamilton and right around Brodie.  They play differently but both are effective in different ways.  As long as the Flames' focus is on offensive-minded D joining/leading the rush, Nakladal may not be ideal Top4, but that doesn't mean he's not capable as a Top4.  I mean, really.  What do you think Regher was for the Flames, a #6/#7D?

 

 

Brodie's defence i would argue is in the upper echelon of the league, probably at least top 15 so are you suggesting Nakladkl is right around a top dman in the league?

 

I don't mind Nakladl but that comparison is getting way ahead of ourselves. IMO he is nowhere close to Brodie and still a step behind Hamilton. He's playing decent, but doing so in a pretty shelterd role while Hamilton and Brodie perform better while handling more minutes. Not a very close comparison at all. 

 

I like him but IMO Nadkladl is not and is not likely to be a top 4 dman. I think at this point it would take a very unprecedent development curve to turn Nadkladl into a top 4 dman. not impossible, just unlikely IMO. he could settle in as a decent bottom pairing guy though. 

[cccsberg]

Brodie's defence i would argue is in the upper echelon of the league, probably at least top 15 so are you suggesting Nakladkl is right around a top dman in the league?

 

I don't mind Nakladl but that comparison is getting way ahead of ourselves. IMO he is nowhere close to Brodie and still a step behind Hamilton. He's playing decent, but doing so in a pretty shelterd role while Hamilton and Brodie perform better while handling more minutes. Not a very close comparison at all. 

 

I like him but IMO Nadkladl is not and is not likely to be a top 4 dman. I think at this point it would take a very unprecedent development curve to turn Nadkladl into a top 4 dman. not impossible, just unlikely IMO. he could settle in as a decent bottom pairing guy though. 

My point which you seemed to ignore is what defines a Top4 D?  Is it defensive skill/responsibility, offensive contribution or a combination of the two?  

 

When I compared Nakladal to Hamilton and Brodie I was only speaking of the defensive aspects of their games.  Let's put it another way.  Watching games I regularly see a defensive gaffe/missed assignment/player get beaten re: Hamilton, and to a lessor degree Brodie, but rarely see it with Nakladal.  For instance, when have you ever seen Nakladal knocked off the puck along the boards, versus Brodie who can't fully compete against the bigger forwards.  Now, we can argue that its because they are up against better competition/players so you can't really compare, which is likely true to some extent.  However, I also believe that Hamilton & Brodie's focus/contributions on the offensive side of things offsets how we view them overall, which is also important, of course.  

 

The bottom line is defensively I see Nakladal as very strong, and if we define Top4 D as primarily defensive-minded he can easily fit into that slot.  Again I'll ask.  How do you (specifically) define Top4 D?

Another way to think about it.  What makes Hamonic a Top2/Top4 D, even though he doesn't actually contribute much offensively, and makes so many here seemingly going ga ga to get him in a trade?

The bottom line is we often seem to fall for the "grass is greener" syndrome, while all the while having just what we think we need staring us right in the face.  With Nakladal, Jokipakka and Wotherspoon I believe that is very much the case......

[travel_dude]

Brodie's defence i would argue is in the upper echelon of the league, probably at least top 15 so are you suggesting Nakladkl is right around a top dman in the league?

 

I don't mind Nakladl but that comparison is getting way ahead of ourselves. IMO he is nowhere close to Brodie and still a step behind Hamilton. He's playing decent, but doing so in a pretty shelterd role while Hamilton and Brodie perform better while handling more minutes. Not a very close comparison at all. 

 

I like him but IMO Nadkladl is not and is not likely to be a top 4 dman. I think at this point it would take a very unprecedent development curve to turn Nadkladl into a top 4 dman. not impossible, just unlikely IMO. he could settle in as a decent bottom pairing guy though. 

 

I would argue that Brodie is in fact #1 on the Flames.  He doesn't (yet) have the elite scoring, but he is getting better each year.  His positioning is elite.  He makes the odd mistake, but who doesn't.  

 

With Nakladal, I have no problem with playing him as a 5/6 d-man; he's already doing that and performing well. With Joki, I think he has the potential to grow into a 3/4.  He is getting that opportunity right now, and is playing up to that level.  He still has some work to do, but I see the combination of offensive sense and defensive ability already.  He should only get better.

 

With the last few games, I don't see why we aren't evaluating Nakladal at the top 4 level.  Play him with Gio and Brodie with Hamilton. Joki with Engelland.  Roll them almost evenly, so you get a sense of what they can do in a situation you will likely encounter next season (injury, penalty/suspension).

[cross16]

My point which you seemed to ignore is what defines a Top4 D?  Is it defensive skill/responsibility, offensive contribution or a combination of the two?  

 

When I compared Nakladal to Hamilton and Brodie I was only speaking of the defensive aspects of their games.  Let's put it another way.  Watching games I regularly see a defensive gaffe/missed assignment/player get beaten re: Hamilton, and to a lessor degree Brodie, but rarely see it with Nakladal.  For instance, when have you ever seen Nakladal knocked off the puck along the boards, versus Brodie who can't fully compete against the bigger forwards.  Now, we can argue that its because they are up against better competition/players so you can't really compare, which is likely true to some extent.  However, I also believe that Hamilton & Brodie's focus/contributions on the offensive side of things offsets how we view them overall, which is also important, of course.  

 

The bottom line is defensively I see Nakladal as very strong, and if we define Top4 D as primarily defensive-minded he can easily fit into that slot.  Again I'll ask.  How do you (specifically) define Top4 D?

Another way to think about it.  What makes Hamonic a Top2/Top4 D, even though he doesn't actually contribute much offensively, and makes so many here seemingly going ga ga to get him in a trade?

The bottom line is we often seem to fall for the "grass is greener" syndrome, while all the while having just what we think we need staring us right in the face.  With Nakladal, Jokipakka and Wotherspoon I believe that is very much the case......

 

We are seeing two very different players in Nak then. I see Nak get beat quite frequently, especially with outside speed. he can't close gaps like Brodie can so players can make a move on him on the blueline and get around him and he dons't recover as fast. his board play is solid I agree but he gets beat there too. I also find nak is prone to some poor defensive reads and pinches or tried to force a play at the blueline whe he really shouldn't.  That happens to everyone, but if you re seeing he is more sound defensivly than Brodie/hamilton i respectfully disagree. I konw you said Defence and thats what i said as well. IMO, Brodie is a top 10-15 blueliner in the league just based on his ability to defend beucase Brodie can defend against some of the best forwrads in the league. Nak hasn't draw near the tough minutes Brodie does and its nearly as successful as Brodie is either, so like I said I think comparing the two isn't right.

 

Top 4 blueliner is all about being able to hand the minutes. you can have players that trend either direction, offensively or defensivly, but for me its about handling the minutes. Can your game thrive when it reaches 20 mins, 23 min, 26 mins a night? Can you keep the other team at bay but also create chances for your team at those minutes level. What makes Hamonic good, and a top 3 dman IMO, is he can handle those minutes. he can keep the opposition at bay and still allow for his team to create more chances on the ice all while drawing very tough minutes.  Nak has not shown me enough for me to warrant he could handle that becuae IMO he's not exactly thriving right now while drawing lower quality of minutes. he is playing solid for sure so don't think i'm putting him down, but I woudln't say he is thriving and if he was i'd be more akin to give him top 4 minutes. right now though he is also being outplayed by Jokipakka and he is more desevering of those minutes.

 

YOu don't have to sell me on the internal options on D. I've already said in a few threads i don't think the Flames should be aggressive in upgrading their D in the off season. i think there is more than enough talent here to have a good D core next season and i would rather look for growth in guys like Hamilton, Jokipakka, Nak etc then spent assets. not to mention I think their execution and structure in the D zone is the main cultprit and not their talent level. I'm very comfortable keeping the same D core next season. 

[cccsberg]

We are seeing two very different players in Nak then. I see Nak get beat quite frequently, especially with outside speed. he can't close gaps like Brodie can so players can make a move on him on the blueline and get around him and he dons't recover as fast. his board play is solid I agree but he gets beat there too. I also find nak is prone to some poor defensive reads and pinches or tried to force a play at the blueline whe he really shouldn't.  That happens to everyone, but if you re seeing he is more sound defensivly than Brodie/hamilton i respectfully disagree. I konw you said Defence and thats what i said as well. IMO, Brodie is a top 10-15 blueliner in the league just based on his ability to defend beucase Brodie can defend against some of the best forwrads in the league. Nak hasn't draw near the tough minutes Brodie does and its nearly as successful as Brodie is either, so like I said I think comparing the two isn't right.

 

Top 4 blueliner is all about being able to hand the minutes. you can have players that trend either direction, offensively or defensivly, but for me its about handling the minutes. Can your game thrive when it reaches 20 mins, 23 min, 26 mins a night? Can you keep the other team at bay but also create chances for your team at those minutes level. What makes Hamonic good, and a top 3 dman IMO, is he can handle those minutes. he can keep the opposition at bay and still allow for his team to create more chances on the ice all while drawing very tough minutes.  Nak has not shown me enough for me to warrant he could handle that becuae IMO he's not exactly thriving right now while drawing lower quality of minutes. he is playing solid for sure so don't think i'm putting him down, but I woudln't say he is thriving and if he was i'd be more akin to give him top 4 minutes. right now though he is also being outplayed by Jokipakka and he is more desevering of those minutes.

 

YOu don't have to sell me on the internal options on D. I've already said in a few threads i don't think the Flames should be aggressive in upgrading their D in the off season. i think there is more than enough talent here to have a good D core next season and i would rather look for growth in guys like Hamilton, Jokipakka, Nak etc then spent assets. not to mention I think their execution and structure in the D zone is the main cultprit and not their talent level. I'm very comfortable keeping the same D core next season. 

OK, good discussion.  I guess I'll have to keep watching closely, especially the gap control and recovery of each guy.  I still believe Nak is one of our best on the boards and net-front. I agree Brodie is one of the best D overall, just that his weakness is being smaller stature and struggling occasionally in board battles with bigger guys or handling guys in front of the net.  Hamilton is still learning to be aware before dumping the puck up the boards, right to the opposition, and needs to play physical, especially behind the net.  He is getting better in that, though.  

 

Of course it is hard to argue with quality of opposition and TOI because the coach doesn't play Nak that much, but to me he could.  With the experimentations going on lately Nak has been getting more minutes so we'll see how he handles it.  Hopefully they re-sign him.  Jokipakka is very good at using his stick to poke the puck away and seems very sound positionally.  He is the least tentative offensively but both he and Nak are becoming more familiar and becoming more involved.  Offensively, of course, Gio, Brodie and Hamilton are all near elite and it shows in their points and impact on helping drive the whole Flames offence.

[kehatch]

I personally don't see the upside on Nakladal. Great shot but lacks the offensive acumen to put up points. Limited skill set in the D zone. It won't shock me if he goes to free agency next season as the Flames have a lot of these depth guys and he may want to go somewhere with more opportunity. That said, my preference would be to keep him on a 1 year contract.

Jokipakka on the other hand I really like. He is just getting into his prime and he has been playing solid D, often in the top 4. He is a stable partner to put with someone like Hamilton and I could see him develop into a solid asset.

[travel_dude]

I personally don't see the upside on Nakladal. Great shot but lacks the offensive acumen to put up points. Limited skill set in the D zone. It won't shock me if he goes to free agency next season as the Flames have a lot of these depth guys and he may want to go somewhere with more opportunity. That said, my preference would be to keep him on a 1 year contract.

Jokipakka on the other hand I really like. He is just getting into his prime and he has been playing solid D, often in the top 4. He is a stable partner to put with someone like Hamilton and I could see him develop into a solid asset.

 

I think that a one-year deal makes sense.  He has all of 22 games at the NHL level.  I think he will surprise once he gets in about 50 or so games.  Easily more upside than Smid right now.  Sign him to a deal, and if he becomes a valuable player, keep him.  If he only is replacement level, then at least you can send him down or trade him elsewhere.

 

One player I look forward to at the pro level is Ollas-Mattsson.  I haven't seen enough games from him yet to form a true picture, but the limited viewings of him were good.  A shame he lost this year to injury.  Would have like to see him finish off the WJC tourney.

[cross16]

i agree i odn't see the upside in Nak either. I thikn he can be a decent 5/6 guy but nothing more, his hockey sense and decision making IMO won't allow him to be a top 4 dman and I think thats why he isn't getting the opportunity becuase if i'm Hartley I wouldn't be playing him more either. 

 

I'd like to bring him back and ideally a 2 year deal in the 1-1.25 range would be great but anything more i'm prepared to let him walk. 

[kehatch]

I think that a one-year deal makes sense.  He has all of 22 games at the NHL level.  I think he will surprise once he gets in about 50 or so games.  Easily more upside than Smid right now.  Sign him to a deal, and if he becomes a valuable player, keep him.  If he only is replacement level, then at least you can send him down or trade him elsewhere.

 

One player I look forward to at the pro level is Ollas-Mattsson.  I haven't seen enough games from him yet to form a true picture, but the limited viewings of him were good.  A shame he lost this year to injury.  Would have like to see him finish off the WJC tourney.

 

I agree with 1-year on Nakladal.  I am less optimistic about what we will see, but he can play the game now and a 1-year depth deal is perfect for the Flames.  But the Flames are full of bottom 3 competition so I wouldn't be surprised to see him move on.  

 

As for our prospects I really like our guys.  We don't have any marquee prospects at the positions.  But outside of (maybe) Gilles that is pretty much true of the Flames prospect system at every position.  That is a symptom of our best prospects graduating.  Haynes put together a great article recently about how young the Flames are.  http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/04/dirty-rascals-flames-young-core-relied.html.  Tough to put together that together and still maintain a great prospect system.  

[robrob1974]

Signing Nakladal to a 2 year deal could be perfect.

Being older, he can be a good 6/7 guy.

Anderson probably needs 2 years in the AHL.

Kylington could need 2 more to bulk up.

Is Kulak ready?

A one year could work if you think someone else is ready.

Brodie, Hamilton

Giordano, Jokkipakka

Engelland, Wotherspoon

Nakladal

Of course pairings are up for change. Giordano and Brodie could end up back together.

[travel_dude]

...

 

As for our prospects I really like our guys.  We don't have any marquee prospects at the positions.  But outside of (maybe) Gilles that is pretty much true of the Flames prospect system at every position.  That is a symptom of our best prospects graduating.  Haynes put together a great article recently about how young the Flames are.  http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/04/dirty-rascals-flames-young-core-relied.html.  Tough to put together that together and still maintain a great prospect system.  

 

I am not really worried about our prospects.  The D will take time, and it's really hard to tell this early who will rise to the top 4. The most likely are Hickey, Kylington, and Andersson.  Spoon and Ollas-Mattsson are outside chances.

 

The forwards prospects include some possible to translate to top 6.  Shinkaruk, Poirier, Mangiapane, Jankowski have the best chance right now.  Possibly Klimchuk (too early to tell).  The less likely, but still outside chance are Pollock and Karnaukhov.

[cccsberg]

i agree i odn't see the upside in Nak either. I thikn he can be a decent 5/6 guy but nothing more, his hockey sense and decision making IMO won't allow him to be a top 4 dman and I think thats why he isn't getting the opportunity becuase if i'm Hartley I wouldn't be playing him more either. 

 

I'd like to bring him back and ideally a 2 year deal in the 1-1.25 range would be great but anything more i'm prepared to let him walk. 

No, don't agree on the Nak appraisal.  He is strong in the D zone, good positioning, strong on the boards and one of the best net-front.  Not as strong offensively I agree, but he is coming and getting more involved as his games increase.  

 

Propping Nak isn't to say I'm down on our other guys.  They are very good too, but have a slightly different skill set.  Although I agree that Brodie is a terrific D, skating and puck movement is elite, he's smaller and gets beat on the boards and net-front, like on the 2nd LAK goal tonight. 

 

My liking Nak is mainly in terms of looking at our whole D corps.  We have several terrific offensive D but few that are big, tough and mean who can regularly compete on the boards and net-front.  Engelland and to a lessor extent Gio are the only ones who do this.  On rare occasion Hamilton gets more physical but it is rare.  Although its great to have these great offensive D, we also need some guys who can clear the front of the net and win board battles against the NHL's best.  To me Nak is doing that job very well right now and we definitely need more of that on the team.  

 

Of our developing D prospects the ONLY one who meets that need is Kanzig (with other deficiencies), although I admit to not really knowing how Bruce or Ollas-Matsson will turn out.  

 

We definitely should be re-signing Nakladal for say a couple of years and see how he continues to develop, which should give more time for our young guys to develop.

 

If we end up drafting #6 this June I would be all for picking up either Chykryn or Sergachev as from what I've seen both are more like the physical/strong/offensive/skating D that we are missing.  Although we have lots of D prospects, its the type that really matters now.

[jjgallow]

I am not really worried about our prospects.  The D will take time, and it's really hard to tell this early who will rise to the top 4. The most likely are Hickey, Kylington, and Andersson.  Spoon and Ollas-Mattsson are outside chances.

 

The forwards prospects include some possible to translate to top 6.  Shinkaruk, Poirier, Mangiapane, Jankowski have the best chance right now.  Possibly Klimchuk (too early to tell).  The less likely, but still outside chance are Pollock and Karnaukhov.

 

Honestly....

 

If we're so strong with D, why did the Flames allow more goals than...Any...other team in the NHL?

 

And, why, maybe more importantly, are the Stockton Heat 9th Worst in their league for goals against?

 

We have Some good offensive defencemen, for sure.  And there's Rasmus.  Another offensive D with potential, in junior.

 

 

But are we Really going to blame ALL of our defensive struggles, both in the NHL, and the AHL....on goaltending?

[travel_dude]

Honestly....

 

If we're so strong with D, why did the Flames allow more goals than...Any...other team in the NHL?

 

And, why, maybe more importantly, are the Stockton Heat 9th Worst in their league for goals against?

 

We have Some good offensive defencemen, for sure.  And there's Rasmus.  Another offensive D with potential, in junior.

 

 

But are we Really going to blame ALL of our defensive struggles, both in the NHL, and the AHL....on goaltending?

 

Goaltending in both locations.  Really.  What was the GAA for the fram team?  NHL?  Neither Ortio or Poulin were able to get the job done well in the AHL.  Poulin and Gillies were the best of the bunch there.

 

I don't think you can pin goals against on either NHL defense or AHL defense.  At even strength, goaltending at both levels was not great.  I don't think that's on defense.  

 

Even if you argue that defense played a part in goals against, the farm is fine.  Defense prospects just starting pro careers are going to take time to become all around great players.  Look at Kylington.  The guy is 18 and already an awesome skater with good offense.  He didn't look horrible in NHL action.  With his skills, he could easily become another Brodie or better.  Andersson already is a good shut down guy at the junior level,  

 

The NHL club has the worst goal against for a reason.  Goaltending.  PK was bad, but again goaltending.

[kehatch]

The Flames AHL team is very young, especially on D. The Flames have a few weak links at D and key guys had a rough start. Hamilton is also developing. But overall the right pieces are there.