Flames Defense

[jjgallow]

We did not do it backwards on purpose. We happened to draft BPA. That turned out to be Monahan and Bennett. 

 

JH was gift from hockey gods for not tanking.    -come on now, lol

 

We still need to address the goaltending. Who knows if Ramo will recover and it is a long term injury.

 

 

Monahan and Bennet were Undoubtedly BPA.

 

I don't think that defines our drafting history, though.  In fact, those were basically no-brainers.

 

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/community/topic/21967-calgary-flames-drafting-and-development-your-analysis/#entry694162

 

In years that were strong in defencemen (2012), we traded down to get centers.

 

One of the best goaltenders we drafted, we traded away because we somehow thought we had all that figured out with Ramo and Hiller (Brossoit).  We also passed on BPA goalie moves like Zach Fucale, others:

http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=86218

 

While I'm Always a supporter of BPA, I don't think our current situation can be blamed on following it.  Because outside those two players mentioned, we generally didn't follow it.

 

2010, we forfeited most of our picks

2011, - No complaints.   BPA.  

2012.  Bypassed top goalies and defencemen who were BPA, in order to get centers, etc.  Weird.

           Drafted lots of low-skill, low-ceiling,  low risk defencemen, who we are talking about now.

           They were Definitely not BPA.  They were Lowest Risk Available.

           All of them appear to have an NHL shot, and ALL of them appear to be interchangeable parts.

           Had we drafted BPA, maybe only One would turn out, but with Top-2, or Top-4 projections.

2013.   Obviously no issues with Monahan.

            Again, bypassed top goalies and defencemen who were BPA.

            Again, drafted Low risk, low reward defencemen ahead of BPA.  The classic arguement was Kan't zig, but many others.

2014..  More of the same.

2015..   I would describe this as a BPA year for the Flames, but way to late in the game.  

             They made the right move by trading their first round pick for a top young defenceman.

 

 

The only reason we are even having an arguement as to whether out defence is okay, is because we made the Right and Necessary move of acquiring Hamilton.

 

 

IMHO, we need to do that, One More Time.

 

Possibly with our 2016 draft pick.  We don't have time to wait for that draft class to develop.  I believe we need to trade for a 21-23 year old defenceman with Elite upside and NHL experience.

 

 

In my own assessment, this need comes way before our goaltending needs.    Because we at least have 2 goalies who are NEARLY NHL ready, and have Elite upside.  Whether we actually develop them, is another question altogether.  No idea why were trading away young goalies in a rebuild, but we might want to stop that. 

 

Could we use another top young goalie?  Maybe.   We don't know until we give the existing prospects a fair chance.    But most of the suggestions I've seen on that board are goalies in their late 20's and even 30's.  Those goalies will never win us a cup.  And acquiring them, while it may move us up in the regular season standings, pushes us further away from a cup.

 

Where we Really like any real prospect pipeline, is Elite defencemen.   And that, is where I think we need to make an adjustment through a trade.   The Hamilton trade was brilliant.

 

One more, please.

[cross16]

While I don't disagree with adding another high end dman, problem I have with it is we need to remember Hamilton cost us 3 high draft picks. That's not a trade you can make very often and still see sustained success especially given right now the flames prospect pool needs work as it is. Teams that have dman with high end potential don't tend to give them up very often and when they do the price is very high on them.

I think this years draft has a good chance to see the flames add a higher end dman. I see the flames winding up in the 6-10 range and very likely a dman would be BPA

[kehatch]

Not sure why your complaining when we have Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton as our top 3 and we have Kylington, Anderson, and Hickey in the pipe.  At net they have Gilles, MacDonald, and Ortio in the pipe.  There are only so many development spots available.  I don't agree with every drafting decision the Flames have made but I don't think its fair to say they bypassed the BPA.  They might have bypassed your BPA, but they have their own book.  

 

I do agree they will need to fill in some holes via trade and free agency.  That is true for every team.  The made a good start with the Hamilton trade.  I would like to see another top 4 goalie if the contract price is worth it.  I would also like to see a young goalie for next season and that will probably need to be rectified via trade.  I don't agree that another top 4D trumps getting a goalie.  First of all there is no reason to go after only one.  Second, we have a solid top 4 and a lot of D contracts next season where as we have zero goalies signed.  None.  Tough to ice a team without a goalie.  

[jjgallow]

While I don't disagree with adding another high end dman, problem I have with it is we need to remember Hamilton cost us 3 high draft picks. That's not a trade you can make very often and still see sustained success especially given right now the flames prospect pool needs work as it is. Teams that have dman with high end potential don't tend to give them up very often and when they do the price is very high on them.

I think this years draft has a good chance to see the flames add a higher end dman. I see the flames winding up in the 6-10 range and very likely a dman would be BPA

 

 

The Flames gave up a 1st rounder (15th), 45, and 52 overall.

 

In return, they receive an NHL impact-ready 9th overall pick who his lived up to or exceeded expectations, having passed the most risk-averse stages of their development.   At 22 years old.

 

We can assume that None of the picks the Flames gave up, will have an impact at 22 years of age.  fair assumption?

 

We can assume that out of the three picks, probably none are going to be as good as Hamilton.  fair assumption?  With some risk, of course.

 

We can assume that out of the three picks, probably One of them will see the NHL.   right?

 

 

Chances are, we traded Hamilton for One guy who will eventually make the NHL, and won't be as good, who will not give Boston any more playing time in their career than Hamilton gives the Flames.

 

 

There is Nothing unsustainable about that.  

 

I'm not saying we can pull off another trade like it, but if we can, we should imho.

 

p.s.......If we trade a 6-10 range pick, we're not going to have to offer up 2nd round picks.  Unless we get a player even better than Hamiltion (which I would be Totally ok with).    

 

Keep in mind that by the time any 2016 draft pick hits their stride, the Flames will not be a young team anymore.

[jjgallow]

Not sure why your complaining when we have Giordano, Brodie, and Hamilton as our top 3 and we have Kylington, Anderson, and Hickey in the pipe.

 

 I was wondering who your top 3 was!  

 

OK...so Brodie is borderlined to be called part of the youth movement now, but I"ll take it.

 

Giordano, flat out no.   Gio is Not going to win a cup in Calgary as a top 4 D-man.

 

The difference is that you're looking at the day-to-day lineup, I'm looking at our Stanley cup winning lineup.

 

We have 2.   Hamiltion, Brodie (sort of).

 

Both Kylington and Andersson are YEARS away from being top 4 on a cup winning team.

 

I'm patient.  I'm really patient.

 

I'm not that patient.  

 

They're also both struggling this year.  They really are.  I'm not saying they won't turn out.  But I don't think we can hope for more than one of them to.  Maybe.   Many years from now.

[cross16]

I don't agree with all of that no. I think in today's era I would expect a top 10 pick to make your team and have an impact in 3 years or less if you pick that right guy. So IMO a guy they take this year I would suspect would be on their team in 2 years and probably making an impact. You shouldn't need to wait as long for top 10 picks.

I love the Hamilton trade and have no problem with what the flames gave up but I'm not for them giving up that much all the time. Sure if you can trade a top 10 pick for another Hamilton do it but I don't believe you can. Teams don't give up players with that type of ceiling often and when they do they want a big return for them.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I'm not following why you think gio won't be here for a cup....we aren't 10-15 years away from winning here, our captain is not going to retire suddenly this offseason. Unless there is some career ending injury that hits gio, I don't see him retiring anytime soon. Brodie at 25 is still a young player, I would consider him part of the youth movement. It almost sounds to me like your definition of a rebuild is having every player in his early 20s with one veteran to lead the way and only then are you successful.

Kylington and andersson are struggling? In what way? One of them broke into the AHL at 18 and is doing well at that level, the other guy is dominating the OHL offensively as a dman, but might have some weight to lose.

Also in regards to the picks we traded for Hamilton, the 1st round pick we could have got barzal, as a player that comes to mind as ending up an impact player at this time. We really don't know how any of those picks could turn out because Boston made some odd picks.

[robrob1974]

I'm not following why you think gio won't be here for a cup....we aren't 10-15 years away from winning here, our captain is not going to retire suddenly this offseason. Unless there is some career ending injury that hits gio, I don't see him retiring anytime soon. Brodie at 25 is still a young player, I would consider him part of the youth movement. It almost sounds to me like your definition of a rebuild is having every player in his early 20s with one veteran to lead the way and only then are you successful.

Kylington and andersson are struggling? In what way? One of them broke into the AHL at 18 and is doing well at that level, the other guy is dominating the OHL offensively as a dman, but might have some weight to lose.

Also in regards to the picks we traded for Hamilton, the 1st round pick we could have got barzal, as a player that comes to mind as ending up an impact player at this time. We really don't know how any of those picks could turn out because Boston made some odd picks.

Would you rather have Barzal or Hamilton?

[darth_henning]

 I was wondering who your top 3 was!  

 

OK...so Brodie is borderlined to be called part of the youth movement now, but I"ll take it.

 

Giordano, flat out no.   Gio is Not going to win a cup in Calgary as a top 4 D-man.

 

The difference is that you're looking at the day-to-day lineup, I'm looking at our Stanley cup winning lineup.

 

We have 2.   Hamiltion, Brodie (sort of).

 

Both Kylington and Andersson are YEARS away from being top 4 on a cup winning team.

 

I'm patient.  I'm really patient.

 

I'm not that patient.  

 

They're also both struggling this year.  They really are.  I'm not saying they won't turn out.  But I don't think we can hope for more than one of them to.  Maybe.   Many years from now.

 

 

Um....what?

 

 

Our Stanley Cup window opens in about 2-3 years. Probably best shot is in about 5 years. 

 

Gio will be in his mid-30s at that point, and while he won't likely be a top 2 he'll almost certainly be a top 4 still. 

 

Kylington and Anderson are also about 3 years away each. They won't walk in and be top players but they'll be solid right as we enter the cup window and only get better once we are there. 

 

 

The problem isn't D on our cup team its D until we get to that point. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Would you rather have Barzal or Hamilton?

I'd rather have Hamilton, my post was directed at jigallow saying we couldn't have drafted impact players with the picks we traded.

[jjgallow]

If the Flames want to win a cup, the organization will need to start thinking about what that cup winning team will look like. Instead of current needs.

The classic illustration of the failure to do this, was drafting Jankowski to get a center for Iggy.

Gio won't be in that top four picture when we win the cup. He may very well be our captain. But he won't be logging the minutes he does now.

Just look at the top 4 D on Stanley Cup winning teams. It's pretty clear and consistent.

[jjgallow]

Hey Cross....

I'll admit, there is the potential for Maybe waiting on our 2016 pick to become a top 2-4 D. But it comes with Very High risk. An unacceptable level of risk, imho.

Also...we Just traded Hudler...Wideman gone....and trade deadline still approaching. Adjustments may be in order.

We may very well get one of those top 3 spots. And if we do, we Have to go BPA...imho, to realize maximum value. If a D is not BPA, a trade is probably the better option. And much lower risk.

None of it will really matter until we know where we're picking and we know who won the lottery.

But I think a trade should be a serious consideration.

[cross16]

If the Flames want to win a cup, the organization will need to start thinking about what that cup winning team will look like. Instead of current needs.

The classic illustration of the failure to do this, was drafting Jankowski to get a center for Iggy.

Gio won't be in that top four picture when we win the cup. He may very well be our captain. But he won't be logging the minutes he does now.

Just look at the top 4 D on Stanley Cup winning teams. It's pretty clear and consistent.

They draft a center that they themselves declared was 4-5 years away, for a soon to be UFA that they ended up trading less than a year later?

Hey Cross....

I'll admit, there is the potential for Maybe waiting on our 2016 pick to become a top 2-4 D. But it comes with Very High risk. An unacceptable level of risk, imho.

Also...we Just traded Hudler...Wideman gone....and trade deadline still approaching. Adjustments may be in order.

We may very well get one of those top 3 spots. And if we do, we Have to go BPA...imho, to realize maximum value. If a D is not BPA, a trade is probably the better option. And much lower risk.

None of it will really matter until we know where we're picking and we know who won the lottery.

But I think a trade should be a serious consideration.

I have no problem considering the right trade but I think you have to be cautious about consistently trading top 60 picks. The reality is JJ is the Hamilton trade is not a very common trade and I think pulling off another one is going to be very tough, that's my point. Teams don't typically trade you those type of players unless they either can't afford them or get an overpayment. Both of those situations put e flames in a tough spot.

[robrob1974]

If the Flames want to win a cup, the organization will need to start thinking about what that cup winning team will look like. Instead of current needs.

The classic illustration of the failure to do this, was drafting Jankowski to get a center for Iggy.

Gio won't be in that top four picture when we win the cup. He may very well be our captain. But he won't be logging the minutes he does now.

Just look at the top 4 D on Stanley Cup winning teams. It's pretty clear and consistent.

I don't think that they traded down to get Jankowski to play for Iginla, being an admitted 5 year project. Intellectual honesty would be considered in the pick.

I don't think for one minute that Feaster thought this team didn't need a rebuild but was going by his marching orders to make the playoffs.

I am not saying he was a good GM. I didn't think he was good at trading.

I actually think they picked Jankowski to help in the long run.

Would we prefer Maata, or Dumba? Right now yes.

[travel_dude]

If the Flames want to win a cup, the organization will need to start thinking about what that cup winning team will look like. Instead of current needs.

The classic illustration of the failure to do this, was drafting Jankowski to get a center for Iggy.

Gio won't be in that top four picture when we win the cup. He may very well be our captain. But he won't be logging the minutes he does now.

Just look at the top 4 D on Stanley Cup winning teams. It's pretty clear and consistent.

 

I don't think you can really look at past teams that have won for some magic formula or makeup.  The landscape is changing every year.  Tough guys aren't needed much now.  Clutching and grabbing is done.  Big goalies are now the thing.  Goalie pads will likely change over time.

 

You can't predict what a team will look like.  Sometimes there is a trade or FA signing that puts you over the top.  Sometimes you catch lightening in a bottle.  Sometimes you just get matchups that are perfect against your team.

 

BTW, Janko just finished a 4 point night.  2g, 2a. 

[jjgallow]

They draft a center that they themselves declared was 4-5 years away, for a soon to be UFA that they ended up trading less than a year later?

 

 

So....you can see my frustration level at the time?  lol.

 

At the time of the draft, Feaster was publicly in a "Win Now" mode, absolutely against rebuilding,  and insisting that Iginla was part of the long term picture.  And Iggy was telling everyone he was playing until 40 (good on him, he's actually living up to this, and doing it well).

 

I personaly think Feaster was hoping Jankowski would be ready sooner.  It was more Weisbrod that was warning of the "project".   

 

You could argue that he was adopting a "build around a top center" philosophy that was popular at the time.

 

That's fine...I don't know. 

 

Either way, worst plan ever.  

 

(You don't need to abandon BPA to do it.  And everyone knows, you build from your Goalie, to your Defence, to your Center, and finally your wings.   Ideally.)

[jjgallow]

The reality is JJ is the Hamilton trade is not a very common trade and I think pulling off another one is going to be very tough, that's my point. 

 

Well That...I agree with wholeheartedly.  I think it was one of the best trades the Flames ever made...and extremely tough to pull off.

 

Just saying, IF they can pull it off...we would be in Really good shape.

[jjgallow]

Kylington and andersson are struggling? In what way? One of them broke into the AHL at 18 and is doing well at that level, the other guy is dominating the OHL offensively as a dman, but might have some weight to lose.

 

 

They are doing fine for the second round picks that they are.   Don't get me wrong.....I am Counting on ONE of them turning out.    Even if we DO make Another Hamilton trade....it's STILL not enough, unless one of these guys turn out, or someone else surprises, or Giordano turns into one of those weird Lidstrom-like freaks of natures that plays their best hockey at 40.

 

Kylington I am most impressed with right now, breaking in the AHL.   But he is struggling there.  To be expected, of course.

 

Andersson is improving in some areas and regressing in others.  He's great at the OHL level, as he should be.  He is an over-ager, after all.   

 

Great prospects.  Not elite prospects.  Time will tell.  If I were to guess....I think Kylington MIGHT make it into a top 4 role.  Or, not.

 

But, I don't expect him to reach that level in Time.  I don't think we can wait that long.  And it's too much of a gamble, no matter how long we wait, to be honest.   It would be a different story if we were talking about wingers.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I'm not sure why you think kylington is struggling, most of the reviews I've heard on his play have him doing very well, better on the offensive side but learning the game and adapting as an 18 year old will.

Andersson is only overage by a year and he plays on a good team in Barrie, but is still doing well.

I'm more confused by your statement in gio, are you expecting the flames to be contenders 7 or 8 years from now? Why does he have to be a freak like lidstrom to be good at 35 when the flames will be contending. He's showing no signs of slowing down, and im not sure why the guy in the best shape on team is suddenly going to fall apart in the next year or two.

To be honest you are kinda contradicting yourself by saying kylington and andersson won't be ready but gio will be old. Our team will be more then fine with the D we have even if wotherspoon, kulak, nakladal or other similar players fill the bottom 3 spots. The only need we have at this time is someone to play with hammy, unless they split up the brodano pairing, in which case we need another legit top 4 guy not named Russell.

[cross16]

Anderson isn't an over ager. He is in his 19 year old year, your not in your over age year until 20.

[rickross]

TJ Brodie is the truth. If not already by now,next year his contract will be one of most top value agreements in the league!

[travel_dude]

They are doing fine for the second round picks that they are.   Don't get me wrong.....I am Counting on ONE of them turning out.    Even if we DO make Another Hamilton trade....it's STILL not enough, unless one of these guys turn out, or someone else surprises, or Giordano turns into one of those weird Lidstrom-like freaks of natures that plays their best hockey at 40.

 

Kylington I am most impressed with right now, breaking in the AHL.   But he is struggling there.  To be expected, of course.

 

Andersson is improving in some areas and regressing in others.  He's great at the OHL level, as he should be.  He is an over-ager, after all.   

 

Great prospects.  Not elite prospects.  Time will tell.  If I were to guess....I think Kylington MIGHT make it into a top 4 role.  Or, not.

 

But, I don't expect him to reach that level in Time.  I don't think we can wait that long.  And it's too much of a gamble, no matter how long we wait, to be honest.   It would be a different story if we were talking about wingers.

 

 

How does Andersson or Kylington have any less chance of being an effective NHL D-man than some of the guys currently in the NHL at a young age?  Klingberg is only 23 but is killing it.  He wasn't an Ekblad.  Nurse is looking OK for his rookie season.  Ghost was good in Union College, but looks really good in the NHL.

[rickross]

If Justin Schultz can make it..anyone can make it

[andymo]

How does Andersson or Kylington have any less chance of being an effective NHL D-man than some of the guys currently in the NHL at a young age? Klingberg is only 23 but is killing it. He wasn't an Ekblad. Nurse is looking OK for his rookie season. Ghost was good in Union College, but looks really good in the NHL.

They have less chance because they're further away. They're good prospects with great potential, but that doesn't always come to fruition. We often look at our prospects in terms of when they'll be in the NHL rather than if. If wasn't so long ago Pat Sieloff was a when rather than an if. 3 years ago, these boards were touting Sven as the Calder winner with 60 plus points. Kylington and/or Anderson may become very good players in the NHL. We will have to wait and see...

[xstrike]

If Justin Schultz can make it..anyone can make it

Most players aren't unfortunate enough to play for the Oilers.