The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[Cowtownguy]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya man it's going to come to maybe $5000 to $8000 per Calgarian tax payer.  Just for a 2 week party.  

 

Funny how they can come up with money when they want to. I am actually choked that our tax dollars are used to convince us to vote (yes) in a plebiscite that city council has openly said they may ignore (when we vote no). They could easily spend a few thousand dollars drawing a random sample of Calgarians to get results that they or may not follow. They don't even have all of the financial information available. What a fricken sham.

 

If they break even on the games after spending bank on them, then the new facilities are not exactly a real benefit are they? They could spend a few billion and build them right now without the Olympics. 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, TheFan99 said:

What is baffling to me is Winnipeg's arena (MTS Centre) sits something like 15400 or so? It's a small market in a poor city and no crying about a new arena. Still, able to keep their core together and turning a profit. Go, figure.

 

It's all about the luxury box seats.  They generate more from them than 3 or 4 thousand bleacher seats.  As long as they sell out the box seats, they will do well.

[The_People1]

19 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Funny how they can come up with money when they want to. I am actually choked that our tax dollars are used to convince us to vote (yes) in a plebiscite that city council has openly said they may ignore (when we vote no). They could easily spend a few thousand dollars drawing a random sample of Calgarians to get results that they or may not follow. They don't even have all of the financial information available. What a fricken sham.

 

If they break even on the games after spending bank on them, then the new facilities are not exactly a real benefit are they? They could spend a few billion and build them right now without the Olympics. 

 

No kidding.  Build a $1.3-billion multiplex arena/fieldhouse.  No money.

 

Host a $5-billion 2-week party?  No problem.

[TheFan99]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

No kidding.  Build a $1.3-billion multiplex arena/fieldhouse.  No money.

 

Host a $5-billion 2-week party?  No problem.

I Know this isn't a political forum. I could go on all day lol. But, Nenshi probably was past a basketball when younger and it hit him in the face. Then, probably ran a 30 second 100 meter. If, it was a billion dollar state of the art art complex it would be being built as we speak. This, is not Paris, France no matter how much he wants it to be.

[Cowtownguy]

On 2018-10-14 at 2:13 PM, TheFan99 said:

I Know this isn't a political forum. I could go on all day lol. But, Nenshi probably was past a basketball when younger and it hit him in the face. Then, probably ran a 30 second 100 meter. If, it was a billion dollar state of the art art complex it would be being built as we speak. This, is not Paris, France no matter how much he wants it to be.

You nailed it. Ken King totally messed this whole thing up by not knowing his adversary. All the Flames needed to do in their proposal was include a bunch of "art" (maybe a gold statue of Nenshi), a $20.00/cup coffee shop, and a boat load of mimes and gypsies in the building. They would have got their $1.8 billion multiplex. This was a missed opportunity.

[robrob74]

20 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

You nailed it. Ken King totally messed this whole thing up by not knowing his adversary. All the Flames needed to do in their proposal was include a bunch of "art" (maybe a gold statue of Nenshi), a $20.00/cup coffee shop, and a boat load of mimes and gypsies in the building. They would have got their $1.8 billion multiplex. This was a missed opportunity.

 

Do negotiations on arenas always go this way? Or did the NHL team pull an NHL move and make demands of the city which basically was a slap in their face? 

 

I feel like both sides played it wrong, but how is it that they can’t work together on the strategic plan if they want the city to foot a lot of the bill. Ostracism doesn’t really work to accomplish a lot.

 

Us against them created lock outs, and a wall that is a higher hurtle to mount in the end.

 

Betman talks about doing things a certain way with Ballsillie, then does the same as Ballsillie in most of his dealings.

 

i think the team was presumptuous and the city responded in kind, the same manner.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

You nailed it. Ken King totally messed this whole thing up by not knowing his adversary. All the Flames needed to do in their proposal was include a bunch of "art" (maybe a gold statue of Nenshi), a $20.00/cup coffee shop, and a boat load of mimes and gypsies in the building. They would have got their $1.8 billion multiplex. This was a missed opportunity.

 

I knew it.  The CalgaryNext concept was missing a giant blue ring on the roof.   And maybe some pillars holding up rocks at the front door. 

 

Ken King didn't promise the whole multiplex would only use one blue bin, one green bin, and one black bin, the latter collected every two weeks.

[stubblejumper1]

Ken King screwed up by suggesting the ticket tax should go to the Flames.  Governments tax citizens.  Private companies charge fees.  

[robrob74]

47 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

Ken King screwed up by suggesting the ticket tax should go to the Flames.  Governments tax citizens.  Private companies charge fees.  

 

Mid the call it a loan, it could be like an airport fee/tax. If they paid the government back.

 

i find it odd that a team is asking for money from the government yet one of the owners evades taxes by moving out of the country, thus paying less into the money they ask for. I get it, not necessarily the same thing, but...

[The_People1]

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-committing-800m-to-olympics-is-not-a-good-deal-nenshi

 

I don't get why this article says $3-billion public money is needed to host the Games.  Wasn't the estimate $5.3-billion?

[ABC923]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-committing-800m-to-olympics-is-not-a-good-deal-nenshi

 

I don't get why this article says $3-billion public money is needed to host the Games.  Wasn't the estimate $5.3-billion?

The rest of the money is expected from other sources. I think the IOC has promised to kick in something like 900 million or a billion, and the rest was supposed to come from the private sector.  

[Cubicon]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-committing-800m-to-olympics-is-not-a-good-deal-nenshi

 

I don't get why this article says $3-billion public money is needed to host the Games.  Wasn't the estimate $5.3-billion?

 

The rest is listed as coming from "the IOC, sponsorships, ticketing, and merchandising." (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/10/15/money-biggest-obstacle-for-calgarys-olympic-bid.html)

 

Also, since the money is coming from all three levels of government, it would be more like $500-$1000 per Calgarian.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, Cubicon said:

 

The rest is listed as coming from "the IOC, sponsorships, ticketing, and merchandising." (https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/10/15/money-biggest-obstacle-for-calgarys-olympic-bid.html)

 

Also, since the money is coming from all three levels of government, it would be more like $500-$1000 per Calgarian.

 

Yes but not every Calgarian is taxed because they are toddlers or retired elderly.  Some are stay at home parents. . Some work but do not make enough to be taxed.  Families that work may make less than poverty levels and get tax relief.  

 

Really, only 1/3 to 1/4 of Calgarians will be paying the bill.  Now apply the same provincially and federally and each Calgarian tax payer is going to pay about $5000.  That's on top of paying normal taxes already.

[MAC331]

21 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes but not every Calgarian is taxed because they are toddlers or retired elderly.  Some are stay at home parents. . Some work but do not make enough to be taxed.  Families that work may make less than poverty levels and get tax relief.  

 

Really, only 1/3 to 1/4 of Calgarians will be paying the bill.  Now apply the same provincially and federally and each Calgarian tax payer is going to pay about $5000.  That's on top of paying normal taxes already.

Bigger picture is an investment in economic activity for Calgary over the next 7 years leading up to the event. We could use this with the way our Oil industry is being treated.

People saying we don't have the money are simply copping out and don't understand the economics.

(this means all negative people not you The_People) LOL

[Cubicon]

20 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Yes but not every Calgarian is taxed because they are toddlers or retired elderly.  Some are stay at home parents. . Some work but do not make enough to be taxed.  Families that work may make less than poverty levels and get tax relief.  

 

Really, only 1/3 to 1/4 of Calgarians will be paying the bill.  Now apply the same provincially and federally and each Calgarian tax payer is going to pay about $5000.  That's on top of paying normal taxes already.

 

Fair enough, but your numbers are still off. According to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, all taxes are paid by 67% of the Canadian population. I'd say it's a reasonable assumption to extend that same percentage to Calgary as well as the province. So if you want to calculate it per tax payer, at the latest funding numbers I've seen mentioned out there (accuracy unknown):

 

Calgary: $800M / (1.3M people x 67%) = $918 per taxpayer

Alberta: $700M / (4.2M people x 67%) = $243 per taxpayer

Canada: $1500M / (36.7M people x 67%) = $61 per taxpayer

 

Grand total: $1222 per Calgarian taxpayer, which is a far cry from $5000.

 

Now of course that's just the stated cost; it's the overruns that could kill us. If the city gets stuck with the bill for any cost overruns, we could be in a world of hurt. If the feds step in and take responsibility for overruns then the impact won't be too bad since our share of the federal pie is much smaller.

[cross16]

According to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation they are estimating it will cost around 2K per Calgarian and that does not include cost overruns or interest payments etc.

 

They didn't break down thie math as well as you Cubicon so i'm not sure exactly how they came up with the number. The CTF tends to be more of a worst case/scare tactic organization as well so I do take what they are saying with a grain of salt. 

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4566104/calgary-2026-winter-olympic-games-cost-taxpayers/

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Cubicon said:

 

Fair enough, but your numbers are still off. According to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, all taxes are paid by 67% of the Canadian population. I'd say it's a reasonable assumption to extend that same percentage to Calgary as well as the province. So if you want to calculate it per tax payer, at the latest funding numbers I've seen mentioned out there (accuracy unknown):

 

Calgary: $800M / (1.3M people x 67%) = $918 per taxpayer

Alberta: $700M / (4.2M people x 67%) = $243 per taxpayer

Canada: $1500M / (36.7M people x 67%) = $61 per taxpayer

 

Grand total: $1222 per Calgarian taxpayer, which is a far cry from $5000.

 

Now of course that's just the stated cost; it's the overruns that could kill us. If the city gets stuck with the bill for any cost overruns, we could be in a world of hurt. If the feds step in and take responsibility for overruns then the impact won't be too bad since our share of the federal pie is much smaller.

 

Thanks good info.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Bigger picture is an investment in economic activity for Calgary over the next 7 years leading up to the event. We could use this with the way our Oil industry is being treated.

People saying we don't have the money are simply copping out and don't understand the economics.

(this means all negative people not you The_People) LOL

 

Ya the only issue here is we are putting in money to hire ourselves?  So in that sense, are we just fooling ourselves?  When jobs are government jobs then that's not sustainable.  We need private corporations and entrepreneurs to be hiring.

 

And plus lots of the design and engineering of these games may get farmed out to US firms who have experience and so the jobs don't stay local.

 

Or maybe I'm too pessimistic.

[Horsman1]

On 10/14/2018 at 2:13 PM, TheFan99 said:

I Know this isn't a political forum. I could go on all day lol. But, Nenshi probably was past a basketball when younger and it hit him in the face. Then, probably ran a 30 second 100 meter. If, it was a billion dollar state of the art art complex it would be being built as we speak. This, is not Paris, France no matter how much he wants it to be.

I think he has a personal agenda to tern Calgary into little Dubai

 

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya the only issue here is we are putting in money to hire ourselves?  So in that sense, are we just fooling ourselves?  When jobs are government jobs then that's not sustainable.  We need private corporations and entrepreneurs to be hiring.

 

And plus lots of the design and engineering of these games may get farmed out to US firms who have experience and so the jobs don't stay local.

 

Or maybe I'm too pessimistic.

Pessimistic isn't the word I would use. Three levels of Government, Corporations and ourselves investing in this economic activity could end up a very much need boost during this period of time. Out the other end a bunch of new or upgrading facilities for continued use keeping Calgary modern. I say YES

[Cowtownguy]

6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Thanks good info.

And still a pretty good party (i.e. expensive party).

 

The Olympics is a financial loser, and moving money around doesn't make money. The only way we might break even is if they are held on our terms. Given it looks like any city that was remotely interested is pulling out of the bidding process, that could happen. We might "win" by default. That is why I suspect that we are paying for an election that council can whimsically ignore when Calgarians vote against hosting them.

 

I see the plebiscite turning out 60/40ish against.

[cross16]

Hard for the city to ignore the results now that thd province made their portion contingent on it   City can't afford 800 mill let alone over 1 billion and I doubt the Feds are gonna make up the difference. 

[Cowtownguy]

11 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Hard for the city to ignore the results now that thd province made their portion contingent on it   City can't afford 800 mill let alone over 1 billion and I doubt the Feds are gonna make up the difference. 

True enough. I don't think that the city was happy with the provincial contribution either. I wonder what will happen if the IOC is left without a city to host the games.

[Cubicon]

8 hours ago, cross16 said:

According to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation they are estimating it will cost around 2K per Calgarian and that does not include cost overruns or interest payments etc.

 

They didn't break down thie math as well as you Cubicon so i'm not sure exactly how they came up with the number. The CTF tends to be more of a worst case/scare tactic organization as well so I do take what they are saying with a grain of salt. 

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4566104/calgary-2026-winter-olympic-games-cost-taxpayers/

 

30 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Hard for the city to ignore the results now that thd province made their portion contingent on it   City can't afford 800 mill let alone over 1 billion and I doubt the Feds are gonna make up the difference. 

 

And that's quite probably where the difference comes from. The feds haven't yet stated what they'd contribute. If it's not enough to cover the total, then yeah, that could easily balloon it up to 2K+ per person. We still don't have a good idea of how the costs will play out yet.

 

I'm personally in favour of it, but I realize the costs are high. But it won't be decided by those of us who are in this thread (and are relatively well informed). It'll be decided by the thousands of Calgarians that haven't done any research into it. I'm curious how they'll vote, though I suspect they'll vote yes. 

[Horsman1]

On 10/16/2018 at 3:58 PM, robrob74 said:

 

Do negotiations on arenas always go this way? Or did the NHL team pull an NHL move and make demands of the city which basically was a slap in their face? 

 

I feel like both sides played it wrong, but how is it that they can’t work together on the strategic plan if they want the city to foot a lot of the bill. Ostracism doesn’t really work to accomplish a lot.

 

Us against them created lock outs, and a wall that is a higher hurtle to mount in the end.

 

Betman talks about doing things a certain way with Ballsillie, then does the same as Ballsillie in most of his dealings.

 

i think the team was presumptuous and the city responded in kind, the same manner.

The Flames simply hired the wrong King.. They were thinking.. Frank King of Calgary Olympic glory.. .. Now they might need Don King to run the negotiations.. but they'd probably be better off at this point with.. Martin Luther King