The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[The_People1]

17 hours ago, conundrumed said:

It's headshaking.

Go look at the airport area. It can't be worse than that dive known as the Stampede Grounds. Edge of town sure, start fresh. The airport upgrades include fantastic roadworks.

Easy in, easy out. Wanna get impaired, lots of hotels. Not a flood plain. Come from any direction, good infrastructure.

 

Airport?  Sucks for fans living in the SW.

[zima]

I know right now it is a game of Chicken but if all fails and the Ego's of both sides don't bend and the Flames deside to move that would be a huge transition. There is no guarantee the team will succeeded where ever they go will also have to start a new name and jersey and if they go states way with the way most teams out there are struggling they could lose it all for yrs to come. Knowing that and the high risk from moving from a City that supports them a 100% as far as going to games buying there product to me that would be crazy. Now saying that do they know something we don't will they risk perhaps going to eastern Canada like maybe another Toronto team or perhaps Quebec ? To me those would be the only viable sites you could almost guaranty a successful Franchise. I hate how the Management is putting a gun to our head I think it stinks even though it is just a possible empty threat but if it is not and they not saying anything till they have something in place due to losing a fan base prematurely. Because if we knew thy were leaving in the very near future no one or almost no one would attend another game. That would be a scum thing to do Just saying.  

[The_Tribal Chief]

I Think it is Gonna Be Interesting Zima What is Gonna Be Interesting is 2 Things Can they Come up with a Deal Of some Kind At all 2 Will the Flames come with a Open mind and Negotiate Again Or are They Gonna sit there and Say there is nothing to Discuss

[Cowtownguy]

49 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm not a fan of Nenshi, but he has a point of West Village. A lot of work and money has been spent there to already show that location is not feasible for what was proposed and is a bad idea. With how far behind these talks already are I would hope they would be more interested in moving forward, not backwards. 

It is concerning that the area is a non-starter. The area needs to be cleaned up sooner than later. I would like to know what, if anything, is being done about the creosote? I understand that there are concerns about transportation as well. 

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

It is concerning that the area is a non-starter. The area needs to be cleaned up sooner than later. I would like to know what, if anything, is being done about the creosote? I understand that there are concerns about transportation as well. 

 

To be fair he said it was a non-starter, because they've already done the background work on it to show it isn't a very feasible location. He doesn't see value in undoing all that time/month and studies to re visit the issue and that's where I agree with him. 

 

I agree it needs to be cleaned up but I don't share the same concern or time frame. Be nice if it was done sooner than later but most of what i've read sad it isn't a immediate danger or threat. I'd like to see it done, but I'd also like to see a fieldhouse build first. 

[Cowtownguy]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

To be fair he said it was a non-starter, because they've already done the background work on it to show it isn't a very feasible location. He doesn't see value in undoing all that time/month and studies to re visit the issue and that's where I agree with him. 

 

I agree it needs to be cleaned up but I don't share the same concern or time frame. Be nice if it was done sooner than later but most of what i've read sad it isn't a immediate danger or threat. I'd like to see it done, but I'd also like to see a fieldhouse build first. 

I am a little skeptical about it not being a problem. I believe I read somewhere that the creosote has been found on the other side of the river. Apparently, there is another river underneath the river. I would assume that the 2013 flood must have resulted in the chemical moving downstream. Regardless, a big chunk of the inner city is not useable; not a tourist attraction. I agree that they have completed all of those studies suggesting that it was a poor idea. I have never quite understood why the Flames then suggested a multi-complex in the very area that was considered inappropriate. Have they not been talking over the years?

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

. Have they not been talking over the years?

 

Not really. As most private corporations do, the CalgaryNext project was done all by the Flames with pretty minimal city involvement. There isn't too much they can consult or add value on until they get a proposal. 

 

But also worth pointing out is that the city didn't even know the cost of the cleanup until CalgaryNext forced them to look at the feasibility of the area so even if they were talking it's not like that information was out there. More than a few members on council were surprised at the figure that came back as it was cheaper than they thought. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

What Is the Feeling we will get a Deal done going back to the table

[cross16]

You want them back at the table. Cant' get a deal done if you are not talking.

 

Let's see what this amounts to, but it's hard for me to get optimistic. They were really far apart last time and not just even in terms of numbers, philosophically as well, and so far CSEC has been very unreasonable in their demands. I'm not sure the City coming back to the table is going to make CSEC soften and until they do I don't see much hope for a deal. 

 

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Airport?  Sucks for fans living in the SW.

 

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

You want them back at the table. Cant' get a deal done if you are not talking.

 

Let's see what this amounts to, but it's hard for me to get optimistic. They were really far apart last time and not just even in terms of numbers, philosophically as well, and so far CSEC has been very unreasonable in their demands. I'm not sure the City coming back to the table is going to make CSEC soften and until they do I don't see much hope for a deal. 

 

Downtown sucks for everyone in the burbs or surrounding communities.  So what’s your point?  There is no perfect location.

[The_Tribal Chief]

Who Owns the Dome the flames or the city

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

 

Downtown sucks for everyone in the burbs or surrounding communities.  So what’s your point?  There is no perfect location.

 

Not really. I'm pretty deep SW and I think downtown is great. If the arena was up by the airport I would 100% cancel my tickets. Would take me over an hour to get home at night, or would force me to drive and pay for parking. 

 

Your right there is no perfect location but IMO downtown is a must for a new arena. Makes zero sense to put it anywhere else. General speaking, I always find arenas and cities function when stuff like that is downtown. 

 

15 minutes ago, The_Snowbear said:

Who Owns the Dome the flames or the city

 

City. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

Well Personally Cross i think maybe a deal can be reached easier cause with the olympics IF NENSHI wants to he can add Federal funds and Provincial funds and the arena could be part of the olympics spending Just My opinion

[zima]

52 minutes ago, cross16 said:

You want them back at the table. Cant' get a deal done if you are not talking.

 

Let's see what this amounts to, but it's hard for me to get optimistic. They were really far apart last time and not just even in terms of numbers, philosophically as well, and so far CSEC has been very unreasonable in their demands. I'm not sure the City coming back to the table is going to make CSEC soften and until they do I don't see much hope for a deal. 

 

So from what you are saying might as well cancel tickets for remainder of the last season or 2 unless your willing to support a team who is going to use and abuse us for the remainder of there time in this City? If thats the case then lets get together and demand the management get to the table or we will stop now and let them scramble to move there precious team now or perhaps that might just open up a can of worms and force them to show there hand or I should say there intentions

[The_Tribal Chief]

Well Are the Worms pretty or Ugly roflmao

[phoenix66]

Here is the thing , it is all posturing and politics at this time. neither side is blameless, but the reason I'm more against the city is how its played out so far .

 

1. Flames Unveiled the NEXT proposal .. YES it was heavily slanted in their favour, never did anybody expect the city to say "OK" , its called a starting negotiation . They likely expected the City to say " we like this and this.. dont like this and this" and so it begins.

2. They were flat out told NO, study or not , it was almost immediate and seemingly personal for Nenshi.. the obvious research into seeing if an environmental subsidy could be done since we have a risk of creosote leaking into the river was never looked at , mentioned , or even considered . instead they used the cleanup cost as the exit door to sell to the public 

3. City said , how about we do it here .. in Victoria Park.. here is our proposal , .. again , heavily slanted in the City's favor this time..  all good, once again , its called a negotiation starting point ..

4. Flames Countered (this is what you do in a negotiation ).. with their Vic Park proposal..which I actually think wasnt bad, .. still needed some work though

 

now here is where it gets muddy .. The CITY NEVER CAME BACK

 

5. Nenshi attempts to slip the arena into his campaign platform 

6. Flames called Mayors office to see if there was some development they were unaware, (remember the last proposal was made by the CSEC) they were told No 

7. Flames made it know that there was no deal , and rightfully called Nenshi on it 

Then it hit the Fan.. and became an election issue .. call it what you want , but I saw the Flames trying to distance themselves from Nenshi's campaign, but he drew them into the election fight ...  this is the one point I think the CSEC dropped the ball.. they should have just said " we have no deal , and we have no interest in talking further until the election is over".. but it is what it is .. Nenshi took the "save the city from the Big Bad Millionaires club" stand, and painted Smith as a pawn of the Flames (once records went public it was proven he never received one dime from the Flames or the owners)

 

Long story short , I have seen the CSEC be more amenable  to looking for a solution than the City , and his childish actions yesterday proves it . His whining over it should be called Arena , not event center .. his statement to stir up not looking at West again .. and of course his insistence that " we never left .. they left .. why aren't they the ones to invite us back" garbage

 

3 Facts 

1. We need this facility..whether it be sports , olympics , events .. just the upkeep and repairs on the old one are increasing every year (READ THIS )

2.It's going to cost Money .. 3 Major private funded arenas were built in Canada recently .. all 3 are no longer owned by the private funders that paid for it . there's a reason that. The City is already on record saying we need a Fieldhouse .. they have said more than once , it will cost about $200 M to do so .. aside from primarily the cleanup cost ( which , see above can be funded by an outside source ) this was the $ they asked the City for . It should make everybody's head shake just a little more knowing this , that it was dismissed outright 

3. Nenshi is not about saving money ,  just recently he had the gall to say "people would rather increase tax to have better city services."  when a recent survey said the exact opposite. to justify the tax hikes he just gave us all

 

 

Bottom line is . let it play out .. its all posturing and politics .. it will get done one way or the other . I've said it before, Its just part of the script 

[Cowtownguy]

On May 29, 2018 at 11:54 AM, cross16 said:

But also worth pointing out is that the city didn't even know the cost of the cleanup until CalgaryNext forced them to look at the feasibility of the area so even if they were talking it's not like that information was out there. More than a few members on council were surprised at the figure that came back as it was cheaper than they thought. 

I find that rather disturbing. Perhaps it is not surprising, but it is concerning. 

 

I understand that such projects are going to generate conflict. Each party has to protect their interests. I will be upset if we host the Olympics and many of the hockey games are played in Edmonton because it will be an opportunity lost. Refusing to externalize the arena costs to the provincial and federal governments will be a slap in the face to the Flames. It is one thing to hold strong in negotiations. It is another thing to intentionally waste such an opportunity.

[travel_dude]

On 5/29/2018 at 3:00 PM, phoenix66 said:

Here is the thing , it is all posturing and politics at this time. neither side is blameless, but the reason I'm more against the city is how its played out so far .

 

 

Saving space on quoting you....

 

I really begin to wonder what the agenda is for Nenshi and crew.  The West Village is out as a possible location, but was it the creosote or the use of prime land?  The cost is a good excuse for not doing anything, but you have to wonder.  Didn't I read (during the opening volley) that the West Village development was for condos and other high-density development?  One would have to wonder if that is hidden away in some development plan that will make people rich in the future, perhaps once Nenshi retires from the council.  At that time, the developer can apply for Fed and other funding to offset the cleanup costs.  

 

On another note, does the council expect a NHL team to build and own the arena, ahem, event center?  Why would anyone take on that?  You own it, you pay tax on it.    

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Saving space on quoting you....

 

I really begin to wonder what the agenda is for Nenshi and crew.  The West Village is out as a possible location, but was it the creosote or the use of prime land?  The cost is a good excuse for not doing anything, but you have to wonder.  Didn't I read (during the opening volley) that the West Village development was for condos and other high-density development?  One would have to wonder if that is hidden away in some development plan that will make people rich in the future, perhaps once Nenshi retires from the council.  At that time, the developer can apply for Fed and other funding to offset the cleanup costs.  

 

On another note, does the council expect a NHL team to build and own the arena, ahem, event center?  Why would anyone take on that?  You own it, you pay tax on it.    

 

Min van so many high rises went up around the arena after it was built. It’s downtown but they’ve created a community out of it. It’s close to the water as well.  

 

For the Flames, how long does a project like cleaning up the environment take? Plus having to build the stadium afterwards? Is it too long a process anyway? Or is digging up ground enough to help clean the mess?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

Min van so many high rises went up around the arena after it was built. It’s downtown but they’ve created a community out of it. It’s close to the water as well.  

 

For the Flames, how long does a project like cleaning up the environment take? Plus having to build the stadium afterwards? Is it too long a process anyway? Or is digging up ground enough to help clean the mess?

 

How long do they continue to discuss where the site will be.  

I don;t know how long.  Maybe they would be in construction phase by now.

 

I just find it odd that the area is such a surprise.  Turn your back and you think it will go away?

Seems to be some ulterior motive for not wanting it there.  It's a non-starter?  Somebody is going to get rich.

[robrob74]

3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

How long do they continue to discuss where the site will be.  

I don;t know how long.  Maybe they would be in construction phase by now.

 

I just find it odd that the area is such a surprise.  Turn your back and you think it will go away?

Seems to be some ulterior motive for not wanting it there.  It's a non-starter?  Somebody is going to get rich.

 

In politics, It’s usually their buddies nowadays. 

 

But it I think an arena could up the value of the area. I am not an expert though,

[travel_dude]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

In politics, It’s usually their buddies nowadays. 

 

But it I think an arena could up the value of the area. I am not an expert though,

 

The "council" looks at revenue.  If the building is city owned, no revenue through tax.  If it's condos and businesses, they pay tax. 

If the Flames owned the building, they would need to pay some tax.  Maybe less than par, but still tax.

Long term, they might have been better off, since the area will remain as it is until someone starts the process.  

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The "council" looks at revenue.  If the building is city owned, no revenue through tax.  If it's condos and businesses, they pay tax. 

If the Flames owned the building, they would need to pay some tax.  Maybe less than par, but still tax.

Long term, they might have been better off, since the area will remain as it is until someone starts the process.  

 

And they don’t get anyone paying tax now?

[cross16]

Flames pay a very small amount of rent in the saddledome. It's even hard calling it that because I think it's actually more of a donation to rinks around Calgary than actually rent that can be revenue for the city. flames got cut a really good deal from the city in the 90s when the team was suffering and had to maybe move thst the city lowered their rent(as I understand it).

 

city, obviously, wants more from the Flames if a new arena is built. Whether it's a tax or rent the city has said they don't have a preference. I do believe both sides agree the city should own the building but I think the fact the Flames pay such low costs right now is a underlying issue. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

It is Like 2 Children fighting over apples and oranges and neither wanting to give up on what tastes better