Who Should We Fashion Or Rebuild Around?

[Flyerfan52]

I wouldn't touch Kane at half the price he is going to cost let alone at the price tag the jets are likely going yk have for him. Massive buyer beware and is stay far, far away. You have to be extremely concerned when a young player like Kane who is signed to a verh decent contract on a team with no cap issues becomes available. That's a huge red flag to me that te person we see in the media is likely the same in the locker room and therefore I want no part. People will reference Segin and try to compare the two and point how Segin worked out but the bruins were in cap problems and had to move a center and had to move a contract to keep filling other areas. Differenct circumstances

Cross,  give me 1 report that Evander is being shopped that is not pure speculation. Something with named credible sources if you could.

[OilerPensfan97]

Any of those teams but Pittsburgh .

[cross16]

Cross,  give me 1 report that Evander is being shopped that is not pure speculation. Something with named credible sources if you could.

I was operating under the assumption he is available. I have no idea if he is or not but my point is I think he is a big buyer beware regardless and a huge red flag if being shopped.

I wasn't comparing Kane to Seguin, just saying that we missed out on a player that fits into our rebuild plan, a player with allot if promise you could be a key piece to this club for years to come. If another player with his skill set and around that age becomes available we should be in the conversation, I would rather move future considerations that may or may not become keys in the cog for a proven talent in his early 20's then sit idle and cross our fingers that everything is going to work out.

there's a fine some between needing patients and being proactive... Maybe Kane isn't the right situation for the flames, but if our friends up north have taught us anything, its that sitting on sitting checking from behind waiting for the stars to align is a long and painful road!

And I completely agree but acquire the right players not just any that become available that's my point with Kane. I fully agree the flames need to be aggressive and not just sit back a be wait for their draft picks to mature I would hate that approach.

I bring up Segin only because I think people are going to make the connection but to me it is different. It was a proactive comment.

[JTech780]

I was operating under the assumption he is available. I have no idea if he is or not but my point is I think he is a big buyer beware regardless and a huge red flag if being shopped.

And I completely agree but acquire the right players not just any that become available that's my point with Kane. I fully agree the flames need to be aggressive and not just sit back a be wait for their draft picks to mature I would hate that approach.

I bring up Segin only because I think people are going to make the connection but to me it is different. It was a proactive comment.

Agreed if you are going to give up the kind of assets that it would take to get Kane, you had better be getting a core/franchise type player and I don't see Kane as a core player. I see him more as a complimentary player like a Vanek.

[OilerPensfan97]

I was operating under the assumption he is available. I have no idea if he is or not but my point is I think he is a big buyer beware regardless and a huge red flag if being shopped.

 

Did you actually read this was happening though?

 

People love to say certain things are going on without sources and they actually aren't happening.

[kehatch]

On Kane, I am not sold on him. But it is the same story EVERY time a player like him comes available. Fans put a buyer beware tag on the player because he is being moved or not producing on the trading team. It was the same story with Seguin, same story with Carter, etc. The players that fans really like aren't available. Simple. In most cases the player works out just fine.

On patience, I am not in any rush. But again, the Flames are missing a key demographic. Nobody is addressing that. I don't want to become the Oilers with a bunch of stars in a single demographic developing without consistent leadership of players that have been there. The Flames screwed up in the drafting and developing area for close to a decade. That has left a void needing filling. It isn't about a lack of patience. It is about dealing from a position of strength to rectify a position of weakness. To make sure we build the team right.

Like I said above, the Oilers should have made their bold moves years ago. Let's not be the Oilers and wait until we have that supposed core and than work to try and fill in the support.

[TrippinVdUb]

I say we model the rebuild around my NHL 14 Flames team... 64-0 in the regular season baby, YA!

[cross16]

Not sure why the knives are out as to what I said. It's been speculated in many sources that Kane may be available and may be shopped and this thread has operated under the assumption he MIGHT be available. I never said I thought he was available or that I heard he was all I said was IF available I would steer clear. It's a message board where probably 75% or more of the discussion operates on what it or hypotheticals and that's all this is.

[kehatch]

Not sure why the knives are out as to what I said. It's been speculated in many sources that Kane may be available and may be shopped and this thread has operated under the assumption he MIGHT be available. I never said I thought he was available or that I heard he was all I said was IF available I would steer clear. It's a message board where probably 75% or more of the discussion operates on what it or hypotheticals and that's all this is.

Agreed. If we didn't discuss rumour and speculation this section of the message board would be a pretty quiet place.

It's all what ifs and could bes.

[Carty]

Not sure why the knives are out as to what I said. It's been speculated in many sources that Kane may be available and may be shopped and this thread has operated under the assumption he MIGHT be available. I never said I thought he was available or that I heard he was all I said was IF available I would steer clear. It's a message board where probably 75% or more of the discussion operates on what it or hypotheticals and that's all this is.

 

To be fair, there was a fair bit of speculation during the season that Kane could be traded...   A few examples...

 

From:   http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/rumor-roundup-evander-kane-eric-staal-and-the-struggling-canucks/

 

From:   http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/24517942/evander-kane-stays-mum-on-trade-talk-after-healthy-scratch

 

From:   http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/11/14/5105886/evander-kane-trade-rumours-continue-to-swirl-amongst-controversy

[robrob1974]

Considering I wrote the detailed review of various rebuilds in the OP I think I have looked at the recent rebuilds.  There is nothing wrong with drafting in the top 5.  I am just saying that the Flames should consider their options.  

 

Your just putting a bunch of high draft picks together.  Chicago traded for Hossa and Sharp.  Seabrook and Keith were also in the right age demographic to help Toews and Kane along.  LA traded for Carter and Richards to go with their older drafted players.  And they traded Schenn and Hickey before winning the cup.   Carolina also traded Johnson (as did LA).  

 

All your showing is that drafting is important and that you have a high chance of getting better players with higher picks.  My point remains, the Flames are heavy in the 21 and under demographic and really light in the 23-27 demographic.  None of those teams win their cup without players in that demographic.  You need to spread out your talent.  You need various levels of experience.  There are only so many spots for kids.  If (and only if) you can turn a younger player or our first into a impact player in that demographic than the Flames should consider it.  

 

In four or five years when we're ready to contend for the cup, we will have a lot of options at the 23+ range. 

[tmac70]

I like Kane as a player, however there are 2 point that concern me with him. 

 

1) the price to obtain him

2) his attitude

 

The only way our 4th is is in play is for a absolute 1st line proven such Toews or Crosby, which isn't happening. Winnipeg will be looking for a lot which at this time we cannot give up. IMHO as much as I like E kane, for us at present or future I don't think Kane is a guy that pushes us any further in 2-3 years than where we seem to be headed anyway. 

[The_People1]

On patience, I am not in any rush. But again, the Flames are missing a key demographic. Nobody is addressing that. I don't want to become the Oilers with a bunch of stars in a single demographic developing without consistent leadership of players that have been there. The Flames screwed up in the drafting and developing area for close to a decade. That has left a void needing filling. It isn't about a lack of patience. It is about dealing from a position of strength to rectify a position of weakness. To make sure we build the team right.

Like I said above, the Oilers should have made their bold moves years ago. Let's not be the Oilers and wait until we have that supposed core and than work to try and fill in the support.

 

Agreed.  Let's not be the Oilers and dwell in the basement for 4 years+.  At some point, when we are about to break out of a rebuild but the perception of our draft picks are still of immense value, then we cash in on trades.  That would be the time to move a 1st round pick for a key player in his mid-20s who can come in and change the fortunes of the Flames for the better.  I feel that time is next year, not this year.

 

We should be sure we know what we have first by evaluating Gaudreau in a full season with the Flames.  All of Poirier, Klimchuk, and Baertschi would benefit from a full season in the AHL.  Also, depending on who we draft, I think only Draisaitl is physically NHL ready.  All the other guys should go back to Juniors for a year.  These are our heavy hitters of the future and none are truly ready yet and may never even pan out.

 

To me, next season is an audition for the mid-tier guys:  Reinhart, Ferland, Knight, Hanowski, Van Brabant, Granlund, and Byron (RFA). I don't expect Galiardi to be back.  On D, it's Wotherspoon and Cundari who are pushing for full time jobs.  I don't expect Breen to be back.  In G, let's keep an eye on Ramo and Ortio's development.

 

Once we have a solid new Bottom 6, something the Oilers neglected, then I think the Flames are ready to make a move for a Top 6 mid-20s guy to help bring along Monahan, Colborne, Gaudreau, Poirier, Klimchuk, Baertschi, Bennett/Draisaitl/DalColle, and then most hopefully, McDavid/Eichel/Barzal/Hanifin.

[robrob1974]

I think we should fashion our development much like Detroit. I also feel like, even though San Jose is always competitive and a lot of their players are home grown through their system. I know people view them as a failure, but when you reach the conference finals a couple of times in the last few years as well as get past the first round a bunch and making the playoffs all of the time, I still view them as successful. 

 

Chicago has been a lot like that recently as well.

 

End goal is the Cup, but I feel like having an exciting product and consistent is just as important. 

[MAC331]

I love your optimism for the future. I don't think our build point now is anything like what Edmonton attempted. I wouldn't be surprised to see them deal one of Hall, Nugent or Makarov for other needs. They should be going after a goalie because if they think Scrivens is their answer, the mistakes continue.

I like our D corps with the addition of a experienced RS defenseman like Matt Greene to play with Russell. having Wotherspoon and Cundari in AAA is good depth.

In regards to our bottom 6 forwards I think we have a good start with Stajan, Glencross, Bowma and McGrattan. Personally I like the play of Knight, Reinhart and Granlund if we are discussing the 3rd and 4th lines. Knight was exceptional at faceoffs, Reinhart I wouldn't mind seein at RW on the 3rd line and Granlund fits in somewhere, hard working winger.

 

Depending on the draft and depending on what they do with trades I don't think our top line exists right now and needs to be assembled. If you keep Colburne as a RW or LW with Monahan the new GM has to make some decisions around Hudler, Backlund, Byron and D.Jones. These are the very players that have any trade value and you likely need to add a prospect or two to move them.

Agreed.  Let's not be the Oilers and dwell in the basement for 4 years+.  At some point, when we are about to break out of a rebuild but the perception of our draft picks are still of immense value, then we cash in on trades.  That would be the time to move a 1st round pick for a key player in his mid-20s who can come in and change the fortunes of the Flames for the better.  I feel that time is next year, not this year.

 

We should be sure we know what we have first by evaluating Gaudreau in a full season with the Flames.  All of Poirier, Klimchuk, and Baertschi would benefit from a full season in the AHL.  Also, depending on who we draft, I think only Draisaitl is physically NHL ready.  All the other guys should go back to Juniors for a year.  These are our heavy hitters of the future and none are truly ready yet and may never even pan out.

 

To me, next season is an audition for the mid-tier guys:  Reinhart, Ferland, Knight, Hanowski, Van Brabant, Granlund, and Byron (RFA). I don't expect Galiardi to be back.  On D, it's Wotherspoon and Cundari who are pushing for full time jobs.  I don't expect Breen to be back.  In G, let's keep an eye on Ramo and Ortio's development.

 

Once we have a solid new Bottom 6, something the Oilers neglected, then I think the Flames are ready to make a move for a Top 6 mid-20s guy to help bring along Monahan, Colborne, Gaudreau, Poirier, Klimchuk, Baertschi, Bennett/Draisaitl/DalColle, and then most hopefully, McDavid/Eichel/Barzal/Hanifin.

[robrob1974]

I love your optimism for the future. I don't think our build point now is anything like what Edmonton attempted. I wouldn't be surprised to see them deal one of Hall, Nugent or Makarov for other needs. They should be going after a goalie because if they think Scrivens is their answer, the mistakes continue.

I like our D corps with the addition of a experienced RS defenseman like Matt Greene to play with Russell. having Wotherspoon and Cundari in AAA is good depth.

In regards to our bottom 6 forwards I think we have a good start with Stajan, Glencross, Bowma and McGrattan. Personally I like the play of Knight, Reinhart and Granlund if we are discussing the 3rd and 4th lines. Knight was exceptional at faceoffs, Reinhart I wouldn't mind seein at RW on the 3rd line and Granlund fits in somewhere, hard working winger.

 

Depending on the draft and depending on what they do with trades I don't think our top line exists right now and needs to be assembled. If you keep Colburne as a RW or LW with Monahan the new GM has to make some decisions around Hudler, Backlund, Byron and D.Jones. These are the very players that have any trade value and you likely need to add a prospect or two to move them.

 

I agree with some of those players. I think we have to keep Backlund as I see him a great player to go through. Maybe I am putting too much stock in him. But if he can average 50 points he's a valuable commodity on our team. For not having very much center depth, we're stockpiling a lot of them. It bodes well for adding pieces going forward, so I guess it does make Backlund expendable. I just fear that in the future his ceiling can be around a Sharp?

 

Am I overrating his potential? Maybe. 

[kenny76]

I love your optimism for the future. I don't think our build point now is anything like what Edmonton attempted. I wouldn't be surprised to see them deal one of Hall, Nugent or Makarov for other needs. They should be going after a goalie because if they think Scrivens is their answer, the mistakes continue.

I like our D corps with the addition of a experienced RS defenseman like Matt Greene to play with Russell. having Wotherspoon and Cundari in AAA is good depth.

I'd rather see Wortherspoon on the Flames if he earns it in camp, I'd like to see one rookie D groomed this year....if they earn it. These are rebuilding years, He's got the size, preformed well in his stint & has shown he's mature beyond his years. 

The Flames compeatitiveness kept games entertaining, However for me personally watching Mony, Colborn & Ortio was a big reason I caught every game last year, I think you need the rookies in the mix, Lets you cheer for a whole other reason besides a win or a loss.

[OilerPensfan97]

Chicago is the obvious choice since they've won twice in the last few years.

[tmac70]

With our rebuild you must design a team that can compete in a similar fashion as the clubs in your division.  We are in the Pacific division, large, physical skilled game. When clubs constantly dwell in the sewer (EDM,FLA,NYI) you have extremely poor management. Adaptation is crucial in any thing in life in order to survive. 

 

I will say we need to have similarities to the top teams in our division but with a Calgary flavor to it. 

[Carty]

With our rebuild you must design a team that can compete in a similar fashion as the clubs in your division.  We are in the Pacific division, large, physical skilled game. When clubs constantly dwell in the sewer (EDM,FLA,NYI) you have extremely poor management. Adaptation is crucial in any thing in life in order to survive. 

 

I  fully agree, and I think that Burke has been thinking along the same lines for quite a while...

 

I will say we need to have similarities to the top teams in our division but with a Calgary flavor to it. 

 

That is one of the key factors that brought success to the Flames in the past...

[The_People1]

With our rebuild you must design a team that can compete in a similar fashion as the clubs in your division.  We are in the Pacific division, large, physical skilled game. When clubs constantly dwell in the sewer (EDM,FLA,NYI) you have extremely poor management. Adaptation is crucial in any thing in life in order to survive. 

 

I will say we need to have similarities to the top teams in our division but with a Calgary flavor to it. 

I  fully agree, and I think that Burke has been thinking along the same lines for quite a while...

 

 

That is one of the key factors that brought success to the Flames in the past...

 

It's interesting to see what Treliving decides to do, or is asked to do.

 

Feaster was fired for what could be a combination of:

- conflicting vision with Burke

- same vision but loss of confidence to get it done

- a lack of vision entirely

 

It's hard for ownership and management to spin it but after five straight years of missing the playoffs, this could very well be the official start of the rebuild.

[s4xon]

It's interesting to see what Treliving decides to do, or is asked to do.

 

Feaster was fired for what could be a combination of:

- conflicting vision with Burke

- same vision but loss of confidence to get it done

- a lack of vision entirely

 

It's hard for ownership and management to spin it but after five straight years of missing the playoffs, this could very well be the official start of the rebuild.

 

No, I see the moving of Jarome and the final game of Kipper being the official start of the rebuild.  That ushered the Flames into an entirely new era entirely.  The hiring of Burke, the firing of Feaster and the hiring of Treliving is just bringing in the right people for the job to recognize and unify a new vision for the team within this new era.

 

On the Prez/GM/Head Coach

• a vision needs to be recognized and aligned by all 3 parties involved
• if one of these 3 doesn't recognize the vision, a replacement is needed
• once a vision is established, the roster is then adjusted according to that vision and a team is built to realize that vision.  The vision is also very apparent to the fanbase.
• the team built on that vision will be slightly adjusted here and there on the fly until either a cup is won, or an impending mistake is made by any of the above mentioned parties (Prez, GM, Head Coach), or the vision becomes a relic and the league has evolved into a new kind of tempo.
• then you rinse and repeat.

[The_People1]

No, I see the moving of Jarome and the final game of Kipper being the official start of the rebuild.  That ushered the Flames into an entirely new era entirely.  The hiring of Burke, the firing of Feaster and the hiring of Treliving is just bringing in the right people for the job to recognize and unify a new vision for the team within this new era.

 

On the Prez/GM/Head Coach

• a vision needs to be recognized and aligned by all 3 parties involved
• if one of these 3 doesn't recognize the vision, a replacement is needed
• once a vision is established, the roster is then adjusted according to that vision and a team is built to realize that vision.  The vision is also very apparent to the fanbase.
• the team built on that vision will be slightly adjusted here and there on the fly until either a cup is won, or an impending mistake is made by any of the above mentioned parties (Prez, GM, Head Coach), or the vision becomes a relic and the league has evolved into a new kind of tempo.
• then you rinse and repeat.

 

I think you know what I meant.

 

Feaster was all about skill, speed, and US college players.  Then, enter Burke and his truculence philosophy.  Whatever Feaster had done, or tried to do, will be either be scrapped entirely or modified heavily.  The hiring of Treliving is the beginning of the new era.  So yes, not "rebuild" in the common sense because the Flames had built nothing yet.  Instead, it's more like this is year one of a "re-rebuild" towards a new vision.

[DL44]

Just saw this thread for the first time... haven't wandered over here in awhile...

 

Where is the option of the Detroit Red Wings?

 

By far the most entertaining brand of hockey I've been witness to since the 80's Oilers (who despised as a kid)...

Altho Chi today is what the Wings were all about..  built and playing the style the Wings organization had made successful for 20 years.

 

It was the design and style of play Gillis originally modeled the 2008-2011 Canucks after before he f'ed it up.

[s4xon]

Just saw this thread for the first time... haven't wandered over here in awhile...

 

Where is the option of the Detroit Red Wings?

 

By far the most entertaining brand of hockey I've been witness to since the 80's Oilers (who despised as a kid)...

Altho Chi today is what the Wings were all about..  built and playing the style the Wings organization had made successful for 20 years.

 

It was the design and style of play Gillis originally modeled the 2008-2011 Canucks after before he f'ed it up.

 

The Flames are in the Western Conference (namely the pacific division).  With large bruising teams like the 3 California teams, Dallas, and one could even argue St. Louis, the Flames need to keep up with them in terms of size and skill. 

 

What I would like to see from Detroit's model, is their affinity to find the diamonds in the rough when it comes to drafting (gaudreau), their overall drafting process, and their perennial post season record.

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The only Wings model the Canucks followed during their 3 years you mentioned was finding the post season.  Both clubs drafting histories, models, and prospect pools were and are continents apart.