The_People1 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 You might think that games won at the end of a season don't matter. You would be correct by saying it doesn't change the standings much, but this game is 90% mental and 10% talent. If you go to the off-season knowing that you played well and beat teams which are desperate for points to get a good seeding in the playoffs, then that gives you a ton of confidence and hope for good things next year. For every Yakupov and Edmonton, there's a Mackinnon and Colorado. Are you saying Colorado carried over their momentum from last season into this season? They made a coaching change, roster change, and cleansed the team of bad apples. The Flames can do this too after drafting 1st overall. I'm sure we would all agree that players, coaches and GM's never quit and always try their hardest to win. As for fans, it should be the same. To say "well...we're out of the hunt so let's get the highest pick possible" is scary. Fair statement. Since fan cheering only builds habits in fan cheering, not player or coaching performance, those fans who cheer for loses have to be careful they don't build bad habits of cheering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The NHL values parody. It is tough to create parody if the last place teams don't have an out. Personally I think having random draft orders assigned to the teams out of the playoffs (and the same with those in) makes the most sense. Penalizing the winner and awarding the loser doesn't make sense to me. Especially since the existing draft order doesn't seem to be getting the bottom teams out of the basement. Well, if it's true the NHL values "parody" then their current draft system is quite the mockery of competitive integrity. But on the point about parity, the NHL should encourage winning at all times. Don't reward the biggest loser with the greatest prize. It's a loophole in the system and it needs to be eliminated. Instead, the NHL should go to a non-weighted lottery system. Let's say three or four days after the Cup finals are done and a couple weeks before the actual draft, all non-playoff teams enter a lottery with equal weight and the lottery becomes a huge televised and marketed event. Non-playoff teams will throw draft lottery parties and the NHL can sell televised rights. The NHL can cash in big on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Than explain Tampa? There 3rd pick isn't on the roster, leading goal scorer out now in a playoff spot. Colorado/Tampa made a few changes and made drastic improvements. Let's also face facts that Mckinnion isn't the lone reason the AV's moved up, they had a solid core that under performed. No different than LA when they won the cup. The simple fact is 1st overall is only effective if you have the organization structure in place to design a proper team. The system allows those who can't compete the opportunity to acquire better players to make you competitive. Just because an organization has the inability to design a proper team, is not the fault of the system it is the fault of the organization For every Yakupov and Edmonton, there's a Mackinnon and Colorado. Are you saying Colorado carried over their momentum from last season into this season? They made a coaching change, roster change, and cleansed the team of bad apples. The Flames can do this too after drafting 1st overall. Fair statement. Since fan cheering only builds habits in fan cheering, not player or coaching performance, those fans who cheer for loses have to be careful they don't build bad habits of cheering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 People should cheer however they want. I hate when people try to define a. 'real fan'. On an intellectual level I believe the best thing for the Flames is to give it their all every night but to come up just short enough to get that high pick. When I say "you" in the following I do not mean you personally. I mean you the "so called fans". Where do you draw the line on what a fan is? What is wrong with saying a fan always cheers for their team? lets face it some fans are fair weather fans... when they choose to cheer against the team for any reason, it does not sound like much of a fan to me. When I say where do you draw the line, I mean what does it take to get you to cheer against them? a candy? a drink? to me if you are a true fan then you cheer your team through good or bad. No exceptions..... that is me, I do not put any expectations on other people they are welcome to feel and act as they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Don't reward the biggest loser with the greatest prize. Actually the greatest prize goes to the biggest winner. It's called the Stanley Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymo Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The Stanley Cup is for losers. Who wants 30th overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Don't reward the biggest loser with the greatest prize. Actually the greatest prize goes to the biggest winner. It's called the Stanley Cup. and with that... FF52 wins the thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Than explain Tampa? There 3rd pick isn't on the roster, leading goal scorer out now in a playoff spot. Colorado/Tampa made a few changes and made drastic improvements. Let's also face facts that Mckinnion isn't the lone reason the AV's moved up, they had a solid core that under performed. No different than LA when they won the cup. The simple fact is 1st overall is only effective if you have the organization structure in place to design a proper team. The system allows those who can't compete the opportunity to acquire better players to make you competitive. Just because an organization has the inability to design a proper team, is not the fault of the system it is the fault of the organization Nobody is saying the 1st overall pick turns a team around overnight. We established this understanding a few posts back. Regardless of whether you go for the 1st overall pick or not, you still have to do everything else right as an organization. Actually the greatest prize goes to the biggest winner. It's called the Stanley Cup. and with that... FF52 wins the thread... FF52 didn't just win the thread. He won the internet. Nice one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 When I say "you" in the following I do not mean you personally. I mean you the "so called fans". Where do you draw the line on what a fan is? What is wrong with saying a fan always cheers for their team? lets face it some fans are fair weather fans... when they choose to cheer against the team for any reason, it does not sound like much of a fan to me. When I say where do you draw the line, I mean what does it take to get you to cheer against them? a candy? a drink? to me if you are a true fan then you cheer your team through good or bad. No exceptions..... that is me, I do not put any expectations on other people they are welcome to feel and act as they want. It's a form of tough love. There is pain in losing but the team will come out the other side clean and be better for it. Those who cheer for the team to win all the time is consider "real fans" but those who cheer for loses in the hopes of getting a high pick is not considered "real fans" and that's unfortunate because both are real fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 It's a form of tough love. There is pain in losing but the team will come out the other side clean and be better for it. Those who cheer for the team to win all the time is consider "real fans" but those who cheer for loses in the hopes of getting a high pick is not considered "real fans" and that's unfortunate because both are real fans. The fact that we hit the reset button last year and traded away our so-called legacy, only to play at a higher compete level this year, just goes to show you that the team is the most important part of the equation. Fans will come and go, some will cheer for a higher draft pick as a consolation prize for rebuilding, and some will cheer no matter what the effect. We all want the same result; a Flames banner hanging in the Saddledome or whatever the new building will be. I take pride in our team showing up every game. This year, we play to the final whistle. In other years a two goal deficit would mean a loss for us. Or we might play 20 minutes in a game. Colorado mailed it in parts of last year (and were called out by their goalie for it). Edmonton seemed (seems) to have a systematic approach to losing. Other teams are just plane badly run. Even with our lack of 1st overall picks, we still have some interesting prospects that could well become elite or middling or busts. Monahan, Granlund, Baertschi, Backlund, Johnny Hockey, Arnold, Agostino, Janko, Seilof, T-Spoon. etc. It's exciting to see some of them start to shine. The only things that could stop their development is 1) bad coaching, 2) losing culture, or 3) trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 It's a form of tough love. That is nonsense... The Flames are just a group of wayward children in need of discipline... There is pain in losing It is... That is exactly why every team needs to play to win... but the team will come out the other side clean and be better for it. A team can only be "clean", if it always plays to win... Those who cheer for the team to win all the time is consider "real fans" That's right... We are considered to be real fans... but those who cheer for loses in the hopes of getting a high pick is not considered "real fans" and that's unfortunate because both are real fans. I have to ask Peeps... Have you ever played hockey, or any other sport at a competitive level?... Because if you have, and losing was considered to be acceptable... You had a bad coach on a poorly run team... Hoping to lose is for losers that don't deserve to win... ever... While I fully understand your frustration with the NHL's current draft procedure, that is something that needs to be taken up with the league itself, not something that anyone should want to become a part of culture of the team that they cheer for... When Deeds first started this thread, I wondered wtf he did it for... Then I think I started to get it... People like you (pun unintentional) can have a place to vent and cheer for the losses... As you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else is... But cheering for the loses, does not belong in a GDT as an example... This is a better place for it... Those of us that have become black, blue, broken or bloody in an attempt to win on the ice, will never understand or accept any losing mentality towards a hockey game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I have to ask Peeps... Have you ever played hockey, or any other sport at a competitive level?... Because if you have, and losing was considered to be acceptable... You had a bad coach on a poorly run team... Losing is not acceptable to the players. We all agree bro. Maybe read the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Losing is not acceptable to the players. We all agree bro. Maybe read the thread? It is also not acceptable to a good number of fans of the Flames... Any team (or individual) needs to play to win... Always... Or they should just stay home in the first place... Maybe I am not the one that needs to read the thread again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Interesting that there are now 14 votes saying "No". There are 0 saying "Yes" but there are 5 basically saying yes but with excuses why. ******************************* I think it's a given that coaches are unlikely to instruct players to lose (coaches are disposable & are judged on recent performance) & any player worth having will not throw a game. However, owners & GMs have a longer shelf life. See Angotti's words about words from Eddie Johnson when it looked like the Pens were playing their way out of the Mario Lemieux sweepstakes. Strangely when the Pens were about to go bankrupt they sold every player that belonged in the NHL to get bad enough to be gifted with Malkin & Crosby. Odd? @ least they timed it to get generational players. I seem to remember KLowe telling the faithful that since they couldn't sign good players as FAs they'd have to draft them so the fans should be ready for some losing years. Since there hasn't been a Lemieux/Crosby available @ 1/1 that wait continues. I know some believe the hype about McDavid being the next Crosby because they are from the same home town & McDavid is a good player but are you willing to live @ the bottom of the heap on the chance that he will be? We could send Monahan back to junior to decrease our chances of winning. Who knows, in a few years those 2 could be deadly but Monahan is already good while McDavid could turn out to be a Daigle/Falloon. How far ahead are the Oilers with Hall & RHN supposedly carrying the mail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Well, if it's true the NHL values "parody" then their current draft system is quite the mockery of competitive integrity. But on the point about parity, the NHL should encourage winning at all times. Don't reward the biggest loser with the greatest prize. It's a loophole in the system and it needs to be eliminated. Instead, the NHL should go to a non-weighted lottery system. Let's say three or four days after the Cup finals are done and a couple weeks before the actual draft, all non-playoff teams enter a lottery with equal weight and the lottery becomes a huge televised and marketed event. Non-playoff teams will throw draft lottery parties and the NHL can sell televised rights. The NHL can cash in big on this. I think the current NHL draft system is fine, it works well. It is designed to provide the most help to the weakest teams and theoretically minimizing the time weak teams are stuck in the basement. I’m sure the league looks at it as “sharing the wealth for the benefit of all”. Is it perfect? Probably not. Can it be tweeked? Probably. The parity the league has been experiencing would be lost if all non-playoff teams had equal opportunity at the top young prospects. Teams would be stuck in the basement longer and be forced to fold/move geographically more frequently. That’s not healthy for the league. Every year there are healthy teams with winning records which miss the playoffs by a single point. This year for example, there could be teams like PHI, WASH and VAN missing the playoffs. I don’t think healthy teams such as these should have equal opportunity at the top draft prospects when sick teams are failing to win and/or are struggling at the gate because lack of talent. Do I like teams such as EDM getting 1st overall draft choices year after year? NO I hate it, but it is still the best thing for the league because that team will become healthy and start winning. If the endless 1st overall picks fail to help the habitual losing team then the salary cap comes into play and the team is forced to off load talent. It makes sense to me. The challenge is to find the personnel who only accept the winning. When you find it (the winners), you have found the Holy Grail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfreining Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Losing is not acceptable to the players. We all agree bro. Maybe read the thread? It is, because the Fans wanting a loss make it a demand to lose. The players are sorry for the fans as well, if they lose. The main wording is "The Fans are great and they would have deserved the win". If the consumer can life with a loss, the players can as well. AND..... Confidence is going to vanish if the hard work is not rewarded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7wit Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 For every Yakupov and Edmonton, there's a Mackinnon and Colorado. Are you saying Colorado carried over their momentum from last season into this season? They made a coaching change, roster change, and cleansed the team of bad apples. The Flames can do this too after drafting 1st overall. Whoever isn't gelling or working hard at the end of the season is who you would identify as players or personnel that need to be moved, demoted, or released. Colorado added some key parts to their team and did well in moving parts that weren't gelling. Even without MacKinnon, they would have been better this year. The simple fact they were called out for their poor play and adding Roy behind the bench made them try a lot harder as he demands that from his players. A culture of winning promotes success that's what I'm getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 It is also not acceptable to a good number of fans of the Flames... Any team (or individual) needs to play to win... Always... Or they should just stay home in the first place... Maybe I am not the one that needs to read the thread again... I have repeated many times in the thread that i cheer for the Flames to play hard, play to win, coach to win, draft well, and sign good free agents. Where we differ in opinion, and the only place where we differ, is that I want the Flames to come up just short of a win so they can draft higher. Yet, just because of that last part, the first part is completely ignored and/or not allowed to exist mutually with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I have repeated many times in the thread that i cheer for the Flames to play hard, play to win, coach to win, draft well, and sign good free agents. Where we differ in opinion, and the only place where we differ, is that I want the Flames to come up just short of a win so they can draft higher. Yet, just because of that last part, the first part is completely ignored and/or not allowed to exist mutually with the other. What Peeps wants is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 What Peeps wants is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 But Peep's that statement is contradictory. Play to win, draft to win, coach to win but just don't win, to get a draft pick. I makes no sense! I have repeated many times in the thread that i cheer for the Flames to play hard, play to win, coach to win, draft well, and sign good free agents. Where we differ in opinion, and the only place where we differ, is that I want the Flames to come up just short of a win so they can draft higher. Yet, just because of that last part, the first part is completely ignored and/or not allowed to exist mutually with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 But Peep's that statement is contradictory. Play to win, draft to win, coach to win but just don't win, to get a draft pick. I makes no sense! Thanks for this post because it highlights the confusion with the stance I have taken on the matter because there is no contradiction with my post. The act of "play to win" is an effort. The act of "win a game" is a result. It is entirely possible to cheer for the effort but not the result. How far ahead are the Oilers with Hall & RHN supposedly carrying the mail? They have not gone far because they have failed to do two other important things right: 1. Draft well in the mid-to-late rounds. 2. Sign the right free agents. Both of which I cheer the Flames to do well at in addition to drafting as high as possible. You need everything done right to get out of the basement of the league. You can't just draft 1st overall and think that will save your franchise, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renman74 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 what if we played to win but then every game we pull the goalie for the last 5 minutes if we are tied or up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I am sure that you understand that if a person is cheering for this... I have repeated many times in the thread that i cheer for the Flames to play hard, play to win, coach to win, draft well, and sign good free agents But then say's that they hope for this... . Where we differ in opinion, and the only place where we differ, is that I want the Flames to come up just short of a win so they can draft higher. It becomes difficult to take the veracity of the first part seriously... Yet, just because of that last part, the first part is completely ignored and/or not allowed to exist mutually with the other. That is because it comes across like a woman saying that she hopes she is only a little bit pregnant when either she is, or she isn't... You can only either hope to win, or hope to lose... Trying to 'dress up' hoping to lose, is like putting lipstick on a pig... It just makes it look funny, and the pig still looks and smells like a pig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 what if we played to win but then every game we pull the goalie for the last 5 minutes if we are tied or up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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