tmac70 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I think we all would like the best draft choice possible. There is no full proof system. One also has to look at how teams such as Detroit, Pitts, LA, Hawks seem to draft late in rounds but seem to always find effective players constantly. If the system was that flawed than only teams drafting inside the top 5 should succeed. The creation of a team is a balance of all elements of types of players. Not sure i know of a team that has a full roster of first round picks in the NHL. It's the result of the NHL's draft system: losing games means winning a higher draft pick. You are right in that it shouldn't be that way and things need to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 This is always the stupidest question. Only some fans think this way. Players are professional and play to win. Hartley has them playing hard every night and it should stay this way. I'm pretty vocal about finding the "lose to win" mindset distasteful. I can see the allure of gaining the high end talent @ the top of the draft list but view an earned (rather then traded for) high pick as a reminder the season was a failure. I'd rather draft 14th (or later if it means 1 round of playoffs) because it's easier to swallow being in the thick of the fight rather then having spent the year on the sidelines. When there is more discussion of who to trade to get higher in the draft (weakening the current team) then suggested trades to improve in the now I can't get into that mindset. Players don't come with an on/off switch so after seeing fans applaud a bad record they can become inured to giving their best. If the fans prefer losses they might as well lose. Like all habits it's hard to break so you either weed out those taught that a high pick > being on the playoff bubble or hope you can kickstart the competiveness that they used to have. (Remember the hardhat?) When I pick my favorite team(s) I hope they'll win every game. Even when the Flames (my #2) face my #1 Flyers I'd be happiest with a Flyers OT win so the Flames @ least get 1 point. The various posters do seem to have strong feelings on both sides so manybe this should be a poll to show which of the 2 is prevalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4xon Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm coming from a perspective of a fan and only as a fan. What I mean by that is, when I say "WE should lose" i don't literally mean the players, coaches, etc go play to lose. I meant "we as fans should CHEER for losses". The players, coaches, etc should STILL play to win regardless of what we cheer for. If you understand where i'm coming from, then you will see we actually agree on almost everything. Does that make sense? Nope. As a fan, we should cheer to win. And only win. Cheering (for wins or losses) doesn't change the outcome of the game anyways, nor does it change the outcome of the draft. The most we can do as fans is drunkenly scream at the tv, or applaud from the stands during a live game. So with that tidbit of truth, a fan of a team should be cheering for a win 100% of the time. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulstad Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 As much as it pains me to say this, I kind of understand Peep's mindset on this. I completely and vehemently disagree with it, but I think I get it.... Peeps does not cheer for losing. He hates it as much as the rest of us do. However, because the system currently in place rewards those who lose, Peeps is cheering for taking advantage of the system as it stands. However, in order to take advantage of the "reward the loser" system, one must make the conscious choice to become the loser. The thought of losing sucks, the act of losing intentionally is utterly abhorrent, but when the reward is first crack at the cookie jar, the best way to play is to exploit the system Does this come close to what you're trying to portray, Peeps? I hope so, because if it's not..........*shrug* I got nuthin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Nope. As a fan, we should cheer to win. And only win. Cheering doesn't change the outcome of the game anyways, nor does it change the outcome of the draft. The most we can do as fans is drunkenly scream at the tv, or applaud from the stands during a live game. So with that tidbit of truth, a fan of a team should be cheering for a win 100% of the time. Just my 2 cents. It's not that black and white because the NHL has created a situation whereby you get a higher draft pick by losing. A higher draft pick does matter because there's a noticable skill/talent difference between a Nathan Mackinnon and a Sean Monahan. There is a noticable skill/talent difference between a Sam Bennett/Reinhart and a Leon Draisailt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4xon Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 It's not that black and white because the NHL has created a situation whereby you get a higher draft pick by losing. A higher draft pick does matter because there's a noticable skill/talent difference between a Nathan Mackinnon and a Sean Monahan. There is a noticable skill/talent difference between a Sam Bennett/Reinhart and a Leon Draisailt. I fully agree. But as your earlier response was in regard to "as a fan only", I'd like to point out that as fans cheering either way (for wins or for losses) literally has no effect on the outcome of the draft, nor the outcome of the standings. Therefore we fans should just cheer for wins. It's logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 As much as it pains me to say this, I kind of understand Peep's mindset on this. I completely and vehemently disagree with it, but I think I get it.... Peeps does not cheer for losing. He hates it as much as the rest of us do. However, because the system currently in place rewards those who lose, Peeps is cheering for taking advantage of the system as it stands. However, in order to take advantage of the "reward the loser" system, one must make the conscious choice to become the loser. The thought of losing sucks, the act of losing intentionally is utterly abhorrent, but when the reward is first crack at the cookie jar, the best way to play is to exploit the system Does this come close to what you're trying to portray, Peeps? I hope so, because if it's not..........*shrug* I got nuthin. Yes, that's my mindset on this. I fully agree. But as your earlier response was in regard to "as a fan only", I'd like to point out that as fans cheering either way (for wins or for losses) literally has no effect on the outcome of the draft, nor the outcome of the standings. Therefore we fans should just cheer for wins. It's logical. I understand that too. It should be like that and i hope the NHL goes to a non-weighted lottery for teams who miss the playoffs. In a perfect world, every team who misses the playoffs has one ball in the jar and the draft order for all teams who missed the playoffs are drawn based off those odds. As of now, it's not like that. When the season is coming to a close and the playoffs are all but out of reach, why are we cheering for 4 or 5 extra points in the standings as opposed to a better draft pick? Especially, the 1st overall pick? There's more to "win" by "losing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfreining Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I believe you never win by losing! Not even with the current draft system. The team mindset will be that losing is good and after 10 years of drafting 1st overall it will never change. And we look up into the north and all the dynasty there will never happen, because the players get 6M per year for losing..... they need to exchange the complete team to remove the losing is good mentality. You win by winning, by giving the team a winning mentality and if hard work and good work ethic doesn't pay of by wins, players will lose quality because they lose the confidence. All No1 draft picks as good as they play now in Junior will be lost, or even refuse to sign! Honestly, if I would be a top player and I am drafted 1st overall... by Edmonton (or any other team with a culture of losing to win)? I Wouldn't even think about signing there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 100% agreed with the mistaken idea that getting the first overall pick will instantly turn a team around the next season because it simply doesn't. You still have to draft well in the second, third rounds and beyond. You still have to sign the right free agents and create the right lockeroom balance. But that's not the debate here. The debate is, which of the following two would you prefer as a fan? A. 1st overall pick but last place in the standings B. 6th overall pick and 24th out of 30 teams Which is better? In my opinion, the higher the draft pick, the better and that's because we missed the playoffs anyways. Why is it suddenly that cheering for 1st overall pick means all the negative connotations attached like, "tanking", "being the stinky Oilers", "creating a losing environment", "never getting out of the cellar", etc. Meanwhile finishing with 6th pick overall is free of that stigma? Lastly, a lot here seem to think the Oilers and Islanders have patented the meaning of tanking but it's not true. There was also the Chicago Blackhawks and Pittsburgh Penguins who tanked it and came back strong. There were also teams who refused to tank it like the Nashville Predators, Columbus Blue Jackets, who have been stuck in mediocrity forever. Every team has their own story. I cheer for the Flames to get the 1st overall pick, AND draft well in the second, third rounds and beyond. I cheer for them to sign the right free agents and create the best group of leaders in the locker room moving into the future. BUT OH NO! Since the Flames are going for the 1st overall pick, that means nothing else after that can ever happen. Right? The higher draft pick is clearly better I won't disagree there. For a rebuild team that has no shot at the playoffs I agree that you might as well finish last in terms of a best case scenario but where is top short is cheering for that, wanting it to happen, or wanting the organization to do anything to help themselves there. If the flames windup being bad enough to finish last in happy to take that first overal pick but I'd rather cheer for then to play hard and develop good habits and not be upset when they lose rather than cheer for then to lose. I don't like the culture that creates. I also will add I think this who one concept of tanking is a media/fan fabrication. Before they drafted guys like toews and Kane the Blackhawks were aggressive in signing guys like Adrian aucoin, The boulin wall, and coming out of the lockout they wanted to win. It didn't work and their teams as bad enough to be in the bottom tier so they rebuillt and rebuilt fairly quickly. The pens were trying to move the team and spend as little money as possible so that equals a crapy team and had it no been for some luck in a lottery there is no way the pens are still in Pittsburg. So I think this Idea of tanking is foolish and fabricated. The nfl has the same draft system, actually they have no lottery actual so that would actually encourage tanking, yet no one does in the nfl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 As much as it pains me to say this, I kind of understand Peep's mindset on this. I completely and vehemently disagree with it, but I think I get it.... Peeps does not cheer for losing. He hates it as much as the rest of us do. However, because the system currently in place rewards those who lose, Peeps is cheering for taking advantage of the system as it stands. However, in order to take advantage of the "reward the loser" system, one must make the conscious choice to become the loser. The thought of losing sucks, the act of losing intentionally is utterly abhorrent, but when the reward is first crack at the cookie jar, the best way to play is to exploit the system Does this come close to what you're trying to portray, Peeps? I hope so, because if it's not..........*shrug* I got nuthin. Taking advantage of the system as it stands. Hmm. Able bodied people drawing welfare while dealing drugs do that. E-mailer & phone scammers do that. So unless caught purposefully ditching we should try to have a weak team to take advantage of a system that rewards losers. Sorry, against my morals. ****************************** Not panning you Kulstad but re-wording Peeps justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I don't understand why anyone would sell their fandom for any price. I don't care if it is because we are now out of a playoff spot or now could get a higher place draft pick. I don't care if some of you assume that that higher draft pick makes the team better and/or better quicker. I am no slut and won't sell my team fandom at all, let alone so cheaply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The higher draft pick is clearly better I won't disagree there. For a rebuild team that has no shot at the playoffs I agree that you might as well finish last in terms of a best case scenario but where is top short is cheering for that, wanting it to happen, or wanting the organization to do anything to help themselves there. If the flames windup being bad enough to finish last in happy to take that first overal pick but I'd rather cheer for then to play hard and develop good habits and not be upset when they lose rather than cheer for then to lose. I don't like the culture that creates. Fan cheering does not create good or bad habits in players or coaches. Fan cheering only creates good and bad habits in fan cheering. So, as a fan who is cheering for loses, i have to worry personally that i run a bad habit of cheering for losses when the playoffs are out of reach and the regular season is all but over. That's it. All that other garbage about the players, the coaches, team morale, etc is just that, total garbage. Professionals are paid to win. A team still has to draft well in the second and third rounds and beyond. They still have to sign good free agents. They still have to establish a core group of leaders who will persevere through the tough times and breed a winning atmostphere throughout the locker room. As powerful as we fans think we are, we're actually not that relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OilerPensfan97 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Absolutely not. You play to win, not to lose. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 But really is the system flawed? Personally, the system is set up so that each club can succeed. They have cap space floor and ceilings and a system of allowing movement of players from club to club, each club has a point of equal balance. What seems to be missed is that their are more internal problems with most clubs than external. Some clubs try and win at all costs, some have a limited budget to do it with. As much as it is a sport it is still a business, having the correct people place to make correct decisions if crucial. If a team like Nashville/ Ottawa has limited budget use but still make the playoffs, they have the right people in place. However, when teams like Edmonton, Flordia, Islanders continually bottom feed the system cannot protect the stupid. Taking advantage of the system as it stands. Hmm. Able bodied people drawing welfare while dealing drugs do that. E-mailer & phone scammers do that. So unless caught purposefully ditching we should try to have a weak team to take advantage of a system that rewards losers. Sorry, against my morals. ****************************** Not panning you Kulstad but re-wording Peeps justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulstad Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 As of now, it's not like that. When the season is coming to a close and the playoffs are all but out of reach, why are we cheering for 4 or 5 extra points in the standings as opposed to a better draft pick? Especially, the 1st overall pick? There's more to "win" by "losing". See, you almost had me sort-of supporting you, but you went and blew it right here. To continue in your scenario, we're not cheering for the 4-5 extra points, we're cheering because our team is showing the willingness, the drive, and the desire to not give up and continue to improve. We all know that the 4-5 points are meaningless...it's the desire to still compete despite the meaninglessness of it that makes the fans appreciative. Were you happy during the past few seasons, when the playofffs were out of reach, when the Flames were obviously just skating for their paycheques? That's the "country club mentality" that most fans hated to see, and are now glad it appears to be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I can't believe my eyes! Gentleman..................losing is unacceptable........PERIOD! Finishing last means you are the doormat of the entire league. Sorry, but I do not cheer for my team to be the door mat of the entire league at any time. I cheer for my team to win every game. When I look at the standings and see a certain team below mine, it gives me great pleasure that it is them and not us, regardless of who will pick 1st at the draft. Unfortunately, someone has to finish last, meaning they're having a rough go at it lately. Some teams just can't help themselves so the NHL understandably agrees to offer them a helping hand, somewhat similar to a Canadian Welfare cheque. Welfare Insurance is a temporary tool to help those who can not help themselves during rough times. Knowing that there is a welfare system, should I quit my job and go get a Welfare cheque? I could, but I'm guessing that won't solve my problems. Losing is for losers. Go Flames! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7wit Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm sure we would all agree that players, coaches and GM's never quit and always try their hardest to win. As for fans, it should be the same. To say "well...we're out of the hunt so let's get the highest pick possible" is scary. I would much rather cheer for a team which gels at the end of a season with a few wins and have some positive encouragement for the next year than cheer for the highest draft pick possible. It gives hope to fans and the team as well that this team can play well when games matter to other playoff contending teams. You might think that games won at the end of a season don't matter. You would be correct by saying it doesn't change the standings much, but this game is 90% mental and 10% talent. If you go to the off-season knowing that you played well and beat teams which are desperate for points to get a good seeding in the playoffs, then that gives you a ton of confidence and hope for good things next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Fan cheering does not create good or bad habits in players or coaches. Fan cheering only creates good and bad habits in fan cheering. So, as a fan who is cheering for loses, i have to worry personally that i run a bad habit of cheering for losses when the playoffs are out of reach and the regular season is all but over. That's it. All that other garbage about the players, the coaches, team morale, etc is just that, total garbage. Professionals are paid to win. A team still has to draft well in the second and third rounds and beyond. They still have to sign good free agents. They still have to establish a core group of leaders who will persevere through the tough times and breed a winning atmostphere throughout the locker room. As powerful as we fans think we are, we're actually not that relevant. I have no problem with people if they want to cheer for loses I just don't agree with that, that's all but people are entitled to their own opinions and ways. I don't agree completely on the culture though I think when you look at Edmonton there fans were really tolerable of losing and inmany years seemed to encourage if and I think that gave their management group permission to stay patient. I think there is a small influence fans play in n organization but yes I do agree that it's the organizations direction that is most important at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm coming from a perspective of a fan and only as a fan. What I mean by that is, when I say "WE should lose" i don't literally mean the players, coaches, etc go play to lose. I meant "we as fans should CHEER for losses". The players, coaches, etc should STILL play to win regardless of what we cheer for. If you understand where i'm coming from, then you will see we actually agree on almost everything. Does that make sense? I agree with you in the sense that, if we start really skidding, there is a silver lining. The issue I have with nose-diving though, is you start dealing with confidence issues with your players/goalies, and perhaps you take a hit on what your vets might fetch in trade. Your coaching staff goes under the camera eye and even your mgmt starts feeling a lot of public opinion heat. Being a team that falls like a stone can also bring negatives outside of draft position positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 People should cheer however they want. I hate when people try to define a. 'real fan'. On an intellectual level I believe the best thing for the Flames is to give it their all every night but to come up just short enough to get that high pick. But once the puck drops I cheer for every goal for, get pissed at bad reffing calls, shout at soft goals against, etc. Like most fans. The game just wouldn't be fun anymore if I was cheering for a loss. My only expectation is that the GM doesn't give up the future to try and generate a few more wins by failing to trade expiring vets or by trading our futures for a short term player. We are rebuilding for the future. Beyond that I am for trying to win. Winning is good for a rebuilding team. It is good for our developing kids, it's good for the culture, the fans, and it means we are that much closer to turning it around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymo Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 http://my.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=15925&user_id=183341 The above is a cautionary tale of how rewarding failure can corrupt the mimd of some fans.I understand why the system is in place and the benefits it brings but I think an alternative needs to be sought. We should be hugely proud at not drafting in the top 5 for the last 40 years, but our reward for never throwing in the towel is bejng denied those crucial building blocks. Going back to the corruption of fans, I think most observers believe that is as far as it goes and the professionalism of players and teams will not allow them to lose on purpose and thus dilute the competetiveness of the league.This is not the case. When a team in decline gently succumbs to their fate of spending a few years in the basement without striving to be more competetive in the short term, this is because there is reward for their failure and not censure. The English Premier League is laden with fabulous riches. It's top clubs have staggering wage bills and the teams finishing in the top four qualify for the Champions League where they will compere against Europes elite for even greater financial rewards. But the game with the biggest financial reward is by far the Championship Playoff Final. This is a tournament between the teams that finished between 3rd and 6th in The Championship, the league below the Premier League. The prize is a place in the Premier Leaguue, joining those that finshed first and second. Making way for these are the teams that finished in the bottom 3 in the Premiier League standings. Every team will battle as much as they possibly can to avoid this fate. Which makes every game ultra competetive. It's never OK to lose. Teams still rebuild, but they had better not lose while they're doing it. The consequences are just too great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymo Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The estimated financial reward of winning the playoff final is £60M (not an actual prize, but the money to be gained from ine years participation in EPL) making it the greatest financial reward for any single sporting event in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 The NHL values parody. It is tough to create parody if the last place teams don't have an out. Personally I think having random draft orders assigned to the teams out of the playoffs (and the same with those in) makes the most sense. Penalizing the winner and awarding the loser doesn't make sense to me. Especially since the existing draft order doesn't seem to be getting the bottom teams out of the basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymo Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I disagree. I don't think giving teams in last place an 'out' necessarily encourages parity. It makes being last easier to stomach. It teams were fighting tooth and nail to the last game, that would encourage parity. If the team at the top of the standings needs two points on the last game to secure the presidents trophy are playing a team level on points at the bottom, there is a huge disparity in incentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 See, you almost had me sort-of supporting you, but you went and blew it right here. To continue in your scenario, we're not cheering for the 4-5 extra points, we're cheering because our team is showing the willingness, the drive, and the desire to not give up and continue to improve. We all know that the 4-5 points are meaningless...it's the desire to still compete despite the meaninglessness of it that makes the fans appreciative. Were you happy during the past few seasons, when the playofffs were out of reach, when the Flames were obviously just skating for their paycheques? That's the "country club mentality" that most fans hated to see, and are now glad it appears to be gone. With the playoffs out of reach and given a choice, A. Play with desire and a high compete level. Lose the game. B. Play with desire and a high compete level. Win the game. I'm picking "A". If i'm not mistaken, that's something you can side with too and that's all i'm saying. I'm not cheering for the 4 or 5 points but i'm still cheering for the effort. Again, the idea of "cheering for loses" means all these things to different people because everybody has rules about what a fan is suppose to be. Reality is though, there is diversity in thought process and team building ideology. Some see the 1st overall pick as a critical centerpiece in a solid rebuild while others want to climb the standings for respectability. That's all understandable. Lastly, players and coaches are professionals paid to win. If at any time any player or coach looks like they have tossed in the towel and waved the white flag for any reason, then they should not be welcomed back next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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