Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[DirtyDeeds]

So if a team can only protect 9 forwards, 6 D and 1 goalie. who would you opt to protect?

In nets?  Ramo, Ortio or Gillies?

 

A lot would depend on the draft rules.  Just saying it would suck to lose a prospect like Ferland or Gillies or Ortio because we can't protect enough young players/prospects. 

Gillies isn't even under contract. There is no way we would have to put up his rights. As well he is only 20 years old and could remain in college for another year.(this is I believe his sophomore year)

[lordxan]

This is circular and I know well disagree but I personally think if you ask Tim Murray he would tell you hey want to win but they just are not going to make a short term win now move they are going to think long term. So yes you deal miller, you deal Ott and you decrease your chances to win now but hopefully better in a few years. Is that deliberately trying to lose now, not IMO because I think the sabres would still rather win games but they are just not going to put whatever they can into the team to do so and get will accept the consequences. I'm personally fine with that and I don't blieve that affects the integrity of the game.

I have no problem with what the sabres are doing or what the hawks or Avs did previously. I do have a problem with what Edmonton did but IMO they paid the consequences for the decisions by all of the bad habits they picked up and by going through 3 GMs in short order and IMO that penalty is more harsh then anything th league could instil on them which is why I just don't see the point of further rule changes. I believe these things work themselves out.

Very good point.  I mentioned this in a different thread post, but also fits here too.  Good NHL executives, not unlike players, will go to teams which treat them well.  Part of this is the ownership competency and ability to stay out or involved as much or as little as required to have a fluid functioning Mgt team.

 

In Edm, IMO, they will not attract much in the of GOOD NHL level executives and players will not likely sign or waive to go there until they repair this issue.  Edm has some major internal restructuring issues to work through, so until thy get that sorted out there is no way, no matter how many 1st over all picks they get, will they be able to ice a competitive team.  They have proven this over and over again.

 

Their first step is to get rid of the old boys mentality and start looking outside their small organizational world to successful teams with good structure and start targeting young executives who have learned who to do things the right way from successful senior executives.  Then, and only then can they start to rebuild Edm.

 

Just my opinion and observations on the matter.

[The_People1]

I have no problem with what the sabres are doing or what the hawks or Avs did previously. I do have a problem with what Edmonton did but IMO they paid the consequences for the decisions by all of the bad habits they picked up and by going through 3 GMs in short order and IMO that penalty is more harsh then anything th league could instil on them which is why I just don't see the point of further rule changes. I believe these things work themselves out.

 

 

What exactly did the Oilers do?  Why did they do it?  And, what if you can no longer draft #1 overall that easily, would they continue to do it?  Would anyone?

[robrob1974]

This is circular and I know well disagree but I personally think if you ask Tim Murray he would tell you hey want to win but they just are not going to make a short term win now move they are going to think long term. So yes you deal miller, you deal Ott and you decrease your chances to win now but hopefully better in a few years. Is that deliberately trying to lose now, not IMO because I think the sabres would still rather win games but they are just not going to put whatever they can into the team to do so and get will accept the consequences. I'm personally fine with that and I don't blieve that affects the integrity of the game.

I have no problem with what the sabres are doing or what the hawks or Avs did previously. I do have a problem with what Edmonton did but IMO they paid the consequences for the decisions by all of the bad habits they picked up and by going through 3 GMs in short order and IMO that penalty is more harsh then anything th league could instil on them which is why I just don't see the point of further rule changes. I believe these things work themselves out.

 

Cross, I am in your camp. I feel like the Flames needed to drop a few players as well. Something the guys asked on the radio the day after the Buffalo game was, who was the more skilled team? The overall consensus was Buffalo. They have far more upside in young talent and in a few years they can be the next Chicago, especially after all of the draft picks over the next few years on top of possibly getting the 1st overall this year and a very high one next year. 

 

Something we've done was restock the cupboards over the last 2 years. We went from near the bottom of the league in prospects to a possible top 15-20 in the league. So far, it looks like average skill sets and borderline NHLers, but it's a huge improvement. Until it becomes the norm, I will be unsettled by our drafting.

 

I understand we're trying to build a culture, but something I wonder (which is something they said on the radio as well) is, who is going to be here when our next core group will be here. 

 

Although, if Baertschi is going to part of the new core, I get what we're doing because we can't have guys who mail it in from time to time. 

 

Who do we believe will actually be here in 2-4 years? Monahan… Maybe Backlund? Maybe Colborne? Maybe not. And so on, as it goes. 

[MAC331]

I don't know if BUF was any more skilled but they were noticeably bigger. We have some very good talent on this team now and the Flames have done better with the last few drafts. We also have plenty of cap room which allows us to keep certain experienced assets plus add by FA to this core.

I am thrilled with the play of Ramos and now Ortio.

Our D with Wideman, Giordano, Brodie, Russell, Smid and Wotherspoon is showing to be very solid. Now continue to build in behind this grouping in AAA in case of injuries.

Our forward lines heading into next year will be where Flames management need to get the chemistry right. Cammalleri is good as gone and if they could turn Hudler into something come Draft Day all the better. The remaining players are a good start but could be improved upon in the offseason.

1st Line  LW (need) Backlund C, RW (need)

2nd Line LW Colburne, Monahan C, RW (need)

3rd Line LW Glencross, Stajan C, RW Jones

4th Line LW Bouma, Reinhart C, McGrattan RW

 

One can see our needs are not all that many but I think we need some quality talents to fill these positions.

Cross, I am in your camp. I feel like the Flames needed to drop a few players as well. Something the guys asked on the radio the day after the Buffalo game was, who was the more skilled team? The overall consensus was Buffalo. They have far more upside in young talent and in a few years they can be the next Chicago, especially after all of the draft picks over the next few years on top of possibly getting the 1st overall this year and a very high one next year. 

 

Something we've done was restock the cupboards over the last 2 years. We went from near the bottom of the league in prospects to a possible top 15-20 in the league. So far, it looks like average skill sets and borderline NHLers, but it's a huge improvement. Until it becomes the norm, I will be unsettled by our drafting.

 

I understand we're trying to build a culture, but something I wonder (which is something they said on the radio as well) is, who is going to be here when our next core group will be here. 

 

Although, if Baertschi is going to part of the new core, I get what we're doing because we can't have guys who mail it in from time to time. 

 

Who do we believe will actually be here in 2-4 years? Monahan… Maybe Backlund? Maybe Colborne? Maybe not. And so on, as it goes. 

[s4xon]

Very good point.  I mentioned this in a different thread post, but also fits here too.  Good NHL executives, not unlike players, will go to teams which treat them well.  Part of this is the ownership competency and ability to stay out or involved as much or as little as required to have a fluid functioning Mgt team.

 

In Edm, IMO, they will not attract much in the of GOOD NHL level executives and players will not likely sign or waive to go there until they repair this issue.  Edm has some major internal restructuring issues to work through, so until thy get that sorted out there is no way, no matter how many 1st over all picks they get, will they be able to ice a competitive team.  They have proven this over and over again.

 

Their first step is to get rid of the old boys mentality and start looking outside their small organizational world to successful teams with good structure and start targeting young executives who have learned who to do things the right way from successful senior executives.  Then, and only then can they start to rebuild Edm.

 

Just my opinion and observations on the matter.

 

Would be the right moves, but lets be honest.  The old boys club isn't going anywhere.  The bottom of the NHL is owned and operated by the Oilers.  There is nothing to suggest that this will change any time soon.

 

The worst thing the Oilers did was to fire Krueger.  He managed to pull a soft, 'me first' group of kids into 7th worst.  A pretty harrowing, yet rewarding feat for a head coach only half a year into his tenure. The guy was the best coach they'd seen in years, and they opted to punt him for Eakins....

[Flyerfan52]

I don't know if BUF was any more skilled but they were noticeably bigger. We have some very good talent on this team now and the Flames have done better with the last few drafts. We also have plenty of cap room which allows us to keep certain experienced assets plus add by FA to this core.

I am thrilled with the play of Ramos and now Ortio.

Our D with Wideman, Giordano, Brodie, Russell, Smid and Wotherspoon is showing to be very solid. Now continue to build in behind this grouping in AAA in case of injuries.

Our forward lines heading into next year will be where Flames management need to get the chemistry right. Cammalleri is good as gone and if they could turn Hudler into something come Draft Day all the better. The remaining players are a good start but could be improved upon in the offseason.

1st Line  LW (need) Backlund C, RW (need)

2nd Line LW Colburne, Monahan C, RW (need)

3rd Line LW Glencross, Stajan C, RW Jones

4th Line LW Bouma, Reinhart C, McGrattan RW

 

One can see our needs are not all that many but I think we need some quality talents to fill these positions.

Ramo & Ortio have exceeded expectations but when those are low it's not hard. I hope we re-sign Joey MacDonald (or someone similar)  as insurance.

The defense is adequate @ best. Wideman & Gio are 2nd pairing on most teams but are the best of the lot. The rest are maybes.

Saying there are few needs @ forward when including 2 of 6 top 6 spots & using Backlund as a 1C is a joke. Wanting to move the best RW for "something" @ the draft makes it worse.

 

Monahan is probably best served with another year (preferably on the 3rd ala Coutier) used in defensive situations. Stajan works as a 2/3 center while Colborne is a #3 LW.

So, needs @ forward are 5 top 6 (4 if we keep Hudler).

Colborne or Glencross will be called on to fill in on lines above the 1s they should & Backlund is excess if we can land someone better then Stajan. Otherwise he can take the 2C if we don't want to rush Monahan.

 

In sum,

1 experienced goalie even if needed as backup.

@ least 1 top pairing defense.

4 top 6 forwards.

 

6 positions but harder to fill then the 1s we actually have strength at.

[cross16]

What exactly did the Oilers do?  Why did they do it?  And, what if you can no longer draft #1 overall that easily, would they continue to do it?  Would anyone?

If the plan failed then why do we need to fix it? The oilers got all those picks and it still hasn't helped them and likely won't got at least a couple more seasons so again I'm not sure why we are needed to fix a problem that isn't there. I don't think he oilers tanked but they put way too much faith in young players without bolstering then at all. You nay call it tanking to get number one but I think they just were too nervous to bring anyway in to take away from the kids. The overthought the process of playing young kids.

[rickross]

Would be the right moves, but lets be honest.  The old boys club isn't going anywhere.  The bottom of the NHL is owned and operated by the Oilers.  There is nothing to suggest that this will change any time soon.

 

The worst thing the Oilers did was to fire Krueger.  He managed to pull a soft, 'me first' group of kids into 7th worst.  A pretty harrowing, yet rewarding feat for a head coach only half a year into his tenure. The guy was the best coach they'd seen in years, and they opted to punt him for Eakins....

The Oilers are really bad, even they didn't realize how bad until this season. I've never seen their fan base so dejected before, the ownership is a big part of the issue. Ever since they handed(sold) Mr. Katz the keys this team has progressively gotten worse year after year. Its bizarre watching their circus unravel, from the unprecedented consecutive 1# Draft picks, the revolving door for coaches every year. "They need better D..they're too small, no..its Kevin Lowe..nope not Lowe its  Renney, Krueger now Eakins! Yeah its the new systems, it was Dubnyk, Khabibulun!.. then Bryzgalov can't forget Yakupov, and Horcoff and Hemsky!!" The list goes on, their top drafts prospects have been brought up in a losing culture. They try but they lack heart..it says A LOT when you're coach declares Matt Hendricks as the "heartbeat" of the team, a guy who's been an Oiler for less than 5 months. Where is Gagner? Hall..Eberle..even Ference seems to have given up in the locker room and on ice. They are a tough puzzle to solve with no identity right now,  a bunch of high draft picks and then everybody else

[Flyerfan52]

Sometimes the highest ranked (thus BPA) get there on pure talent playing against their own age group.

It's what happens when they play against men that shows what they are. Once you hit the bigs you are playing against a bunch of borderline NHLers that are fighting to stay in the league so have no problem taking out a wunderkind.

 

We got Monahan @ #6, Sean Couturier was a #8 while Truoba was a #9. None is a bad consolation prize for not finishing last.

None of the 3 was expected to play in their 1st year but all 3 proved too be too good to be sent down or back to junior.

They weren't thrown in to appease the crowds but played their way onto the repective rosters on merit. All 3 have shown why when they play against men.

[robrob1974]

Sometimes the highest ranked (thus BPA) get there on pure talent playing against their own age group.

It's what happens when they play against men that shows what they are. Once you hit the bigs you are playing against a bunch of borderline NHLers that are fighting to stay in the league so have no problem taking out a wunderkind.

 

We got Monahan @ #6, Sean Couturier was a #8 while Truoba was a #9. None is a bad consolation prize for not finishing last.

None of the 3 was expected to play in their 1st year but all 3 proved too be too good to be sent down or back to junior.

They weren't thrown in to appease the crowds but played their way onto the repective rosters on merit. All 3 have shown why when they play against men.

 

Ya, I like Monahan. I can't wait to see what he can do as his career progresses. How is Courturier doing so far? Is he still their 3rd line C? On pace for 40-ish points. It's not bad. Kind of like Backlund. 

[conundrumed]

It's all in how you want a player to play for you.

Philly had a terrible start but it's ripening just in time for them. They're the hottest team.

Courturier is as good of a player as I'd like Monahan to be for us.

Lots of upside from both as they learn the ropes.

[robrob1974]

Well, I have now shifted gears and don't care where the Flames finish (low) in the standings. I wanted a higher pick, but if they can develop the player they get where they draft and get him right, that's the main goal. Here's to hoping we get a good player and develop him proper!

[conundrumed]

Well, I have now shifted gears and don't care where the Flames finish (low) in the standings. I wanted a higher pick, but if they can develop the player they get where they draft and get him right, that's the main goal. Here's to hoping we get a good player and develop him proper!

That's the long and short of it. It's still a team game, no one player changes that. Going into tailspin mode for 1 player that may or may not be as good as the 8th guy, it's a bit of a crapshoot.

People can tell me drafting is that tight now that you can, but no it isn't.

In a team game you take your positives out of one game into the next. If we're rolling with positives, let it roll.

Want a happy locker room, pump it with positives.

We're playing that way, I am absolutely great with that.

If Hartley's let go with a new GM, I'll be seriously choked.

But as far as the draft, aspiring to finish near or at last means you've hit rock bottom. That's every guy in your room feels like crap, a rarely-anything-positive diet, if you will.

All for 1 player.

I am seriously not down with that concept.

Look North for gawdsakes, negatives have pervaded that team for quite some time.

Picking 3rd is good and well, but we'd sacrifice our team's dignity and confidence in doing so.

[bronco73]

Sometimes the highest ranked (thus BPA) get there on pure talent playing against their own age group.

It's what happens when they play against men that shows what they are. Once you hit the bigs you are playing against a bunch of borderline NHLers that are fighting to stay in the league so have no problem taking out a wunderkind.

 

We got Monahan @ #6, Sean Couturier was a #8 while Truoba was a #9. None is a bad consolation prize for not finishing last.

None of the 3 was expected to play in their 1st year but all 3 proved too be too good to be sent down or back to junior.

They weren't thrown in to appease the crowds but played their way onto the repective rosters on merit. All 3 have shown why when they play against men.

This is exactly right.  Yea our firsts were awesome against kids.  But now they are in the big league... it's men against boys and it is painfully obvious that these kids are nowhere near in the same ball park.

[robrob1974]

This is exactly right.  Yea our firsts were awesome against kids.  But now they are in the big league... it's men against boys and it is painfully obvious that these kids are nowhere near in the same ball park.

 

I also don't think they've been surrounded by the right people either. ALthough, I don't know what it's like in that room because I don't follow them quite like I follow the Flames. I wondered why they gave Ference the captaincy when he didn't step foot on the Ice in an Oiler uniform. I feel like they should have competed for it and who ever was a good leader won out in training camp. 

 I just don't know if the vets of their team are mentoring quite like the ones on this one. Ours seem to have embraced it and are creating a culture within the dressing room. 

Like, Cammalleri not having skate blades on his skates the other night. They're allowing the players to have fun and have team bonding. They're a tight group, like what they said in the Stajan article in the Sun today. It's a good way to build...

[DirtyDeeds]

I also don't think they've been surrounded by the right people either. ALthough, I don't know what it's like in that room because I don't follow them quite like I follow the Flames. I wondered why they gave Ference the captaincy when he didn't step foot on the Ice in an Oiler uniform. I feel like they should have competed for it and who ever was a good leader won out in training camp. 

 I just don't know if the vets of their team are mentoring quite like the ones on this one. Ours seem to have embraced it and are creating a culture within the dressing room. 

Like, Cammalleri not having skate blades on his skates the other night. They're allowing the players to have fun and have team bonding. They're a tight group, like what they said in the Stajan article in the Sun today. It's a good way to build...

 

Seems to me they handed out 6 or 7 C's/A's on the Oilers and most are the young guns. How are they supposed to follow that type of leadership and how are those young guys supposed to know ?

I think Smyth and Ference are the only ones with lots of experience. maybe I missed one...

[The_People1]

11 games to go at 65-points.  A possible 22-points remain on the board. 

 

After Saturdays monsterous win, i sense a 3 or 4-game winning streak coming on.  That should put us on pace to 80-points to end the season.  Worst case is we draft 8 or 9th, depending on how badly Winnipeg and Carolina mail it in the final couple of weeks.

[travel_dude]

11 games to go at 65-points.  A possible 22-points remain on the board. 

 

After Saturdays monsterous win, i sense a 3 or 4-game winning streak coming on.  That should put us on pace to 80-points to end the season.  Worst case is we draft 8 or 9th, depending on how badly Winnipeg and Carolina mail it in the final couple of weeks.

We have an easier schedule than the Oils, as they play playoff-bound teams (Phoenix & Vancouver?).  We play a lot of games against the East (some in, some out).  They may not pass us.  Winnipeg will play till the bitter end, as they are only 6 points out.  Carolina??  Don't know. 

 

You will see a few teams that are in the playoffs resting top players, so the basement dwellers may win a few. 

[Flyerfan52]

We have an easier schedule than the Oils, as they play playoff-bound teams (Phoenix & Vancouver?).  We play a lot of games against the East (some in, some out).  They may not pass us.  Winnipeg will play till the bitter end, as they are only 6 points out.  Carolina??  Don't know. 

 

You will see a few teams that are in the playoffs resting top players, so the basement dwellers may win a few. 

You are right about the Jets & after watching the Canes play them Sat. they look like another that will give their all until the bitter end.

 

Carolina has a 1.2% chance @ the playoffs while Wpg. odds are 0.6 last I read. Neither has a realistic chance but is unlikely to mail it in.

 

Some that have a ticket to the dance will rest players with even the most minor injury so that's when teams eliminated (or dang near that 0.0 chance) play for pride & have nothing to lose.

[kehatch]

As point there isn't much reason for this debate. The difference between top 3 and every where else is huge (in terms of chance of drafting a star). The difference between 5 and 8 isn't that big.

I honestly don't know how a Flames fan could be disappointed with the wins right now. The effort and character is a great sign, the performances by many of the young guys is awesome, and the Flames are super exciting.

A year ago people were making fun of me for being a die hard Flames fan and we were booing our team off the ice many nights. This season I am proud to say that is my team. I am enjoying the games and will worry about the draft when the season is over.

[The_People1]

I guestimate we will at least pass Ottawa which would put us once again, at lucky 6th overall.  The way the Sens are playing, they've already unpacked their golf bags and started to book courses.

 

It's a tough draft position at 6th this year because there seems to be group in the top 4 viewed as being above the rest and the Flames will not have a crack at them.  Ekblad, Reinhart, Bennett, and Draisailt.  Even if one of them drops out of the top 4, the team picking 5th will likely snatch them up just before the Flames.  There is no prospect of Sean Monahan's calibre avaiable at that position this year. 

[cross16]

I guestimate we will at least pass Ottawa which would put us once again, at lucky 6th overall. The way the Sens are playing, they've already unpacked their golf bags and started to book courses.

It's a tough draft position at 6th this year because there seems to be group in the top 4 viewed as being above the rest and the Flames will not have a crack at them. Ekblad, Reinhart, Bennett, and Draisailt. Even if one of them drops out of the top 4, the team picking 5th will likely snatch them up just before the Flames. There is no prospect of Sean Monahan's calibre avaiable at that position this year.

I think Ekblad and reinhart are in a class on their own. Then I think from about 3 to 7 or 8 they are pretty interchangeable. I think you can argue for and against Bennet, Dal Colle, Drastil, Perlini, Ehlers(spelling?) Ritchie and maybe even fleury. There are players you'll like more then others but I think in terms kf calibre if prospect theg are all the same. Not Monahan level but not a huge step down either. All very good prospects IMO.

[Flyerfan52]

I guestimate we will at least pass Ottawa which would put us once again, at lucky 6th overall.  The way the Sens are playing, they've already unpacked their golf bags and started to book courses.

 

It's a tough draft position at 6th this year because there seems to be group in the top 4 viewed as being above the rest and the Flames will not have a crack at them.  Ekblad, Reinhart, Bennett, and Draisailt.  Even if one of them drops out of the top 4, the team picking 5th will likely snatch them up just before the Flames.  There is no prospect of Sean Monahan's calibre avaiable at that position this year. 

In 2011 Coutier fell to 6th among NA skaters with Euros like Adam Larsson ranked separately. Jets went off the board taking Scheifele & Couts went to Philly @ #8.

2012 Trouba was ranked #9 among NA with players like Filip Forsberg available on the Euro side. Jets were lucky to snag him @ #9.

2013 Seth Jones was #1 NA (fell to 4th) with Barkov & Ristolenen on the Euro side. Monahan was #5 on NA side & we got him @ 6.

 

For 2014 look past the 4 being hyped as they are the top 4 NA ranked. 1 or 2 teams that actually leave the GTA to scout might go for a Euro or go off the media board so the order changes.

 

The only team that seems to think media rankings are a Bible is the Oilers.

[phoenix66]

With Burke at the helm on draft day..anything is possible. .dont ask me why but my gut says we pick top 3..just a hunch but something tells me something big goes down that day for us.