DirtyDeeds Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have debated now for weeks if I should start this thread. The discussion has the ability to divide the Flames community. So let the debate begin but no personal shots please. The topic is the Flames and the debate is "losing so you can get a higher draft pick". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Personally: I cringe at the thought that any team would do it, let alone the Flames doing it. I don't know if I could support any team that decided they wanted to place themselves lower in the standings just to get a higher draft pick. This thinking defeats what competition is all about and I don't see how resetting the goal for a Hockey club to lose for the sake of getting a high draft pick is a worthy consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'm pretty vocal about finding the "lose to win" mindset distasteful. I can see the allure of gaining the high end talent @ the top of the draft list but view an earned (rather then traded for) high pick as a reminder the season was a failure. I'd rather draft 14th (or later if it means 1 round of playoffs) because it's easier to swallow being in the thick of the fight rather then having spent the year on the sidelines. When there is more discussion of who to trade to get higher in the draft (weakening the current team) then suggested trades to improve in the now I can't get into that mindset. Players don't come with an on/off switch so after seeing fans applaud a bad record they can become inured to giving their best. If the fans prefer losses they might as well lose. Like all habits it's hard to break so you either weed out those taught that a high pick > being on the playoff bubble or hope you can kickstart the competiveness that they used to have. (Remember the hardhat?) When I pick my favorite team(s) I hope they'll win every game. Even when the Flames (my #2) face my #1 Flyers I'd be happiest with a Flyers OT win so the Flames @ least get 1 point. The various posters do seem to have strong feelings on both sides so manybe this should be a poll to show which of the 2 is prevalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I approach this now every game of the season has a win win scenario. Flames win well they win and continue to develop good habits, they lose they get a higher draft pick. I don't support losing on purpose but I don't get upset by losing, in this case, so long as the team plays hard. The only thing I'm against in a rebuild is win now moves that don't help you long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 The various posters do seem to have strong feelings on both sides so manybe this should be a poll to show which of the 2 is prevalent. I'll do that ..good suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 There are one or two people on the board that want to lose for the sake of a rebuild. Most of us wanted the Flames to rebuild. Keeping players like Iginla that were depreciating and expiring assets when the team wasn't playing hard and wasn't winning didn't make sense. Some misinterpreted that as a desire to tank. I love what is happening now. The kids are developing and the team is working hard. The culture of hard work and the commitment to play to win is going to pay big dividends as we work our way back into contention. If that results in a couple of extra wins and a slightly lower draft pick than so be it. It is worth it. We are also committed to a rebuild so we are bringing on the right types of assets and we can trade away expiring vets without remorse we are giving up on a playoff run. As to the question. No, it is not okay to intentionally tank. It is okay to recognize that you don't have the talent and trade away the Iginla's and Cammalleri's without fretting over whether that is going to cost you a couple of wins. But I don't see that as trying to lose. I see that as cashing in on assets and making room for your developing prospects to get in a few games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I want the team to get a higher draft choice, but I don't want them to lose intentionally. I like that they're trying hard and by not having the old core and vets on the team, the team is right where it should be. I don't mind if we're lower in the standings because it is where we are at and I am happy they're trying. So far, because they were supposed to finish last in the entire league, they're almost over achieving and it is a great mindset to have. Gone are the days of mailing it in... Which I just never understood. I want this team to taste success and constantly thirst for it. You're either in it to win or to lose, effort proves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I want the team to get a higher draft choice, but I don't want them to lose intentionally. I like they're trying hard and by not having the old core and vets on the team, the team is right where it should be. I don't mind if we're lower in the standings because it is where we are at and I am happy they're trying. So far, because they were supposed to finish last in the entire league, they're almost over achieving and it is a great mindset to have. Gone are the days of mailing it in... Which I just never understood. Interesting way to put it but I am not so sure "mailing it in" is the same thing. Although I can see where you might use the term when a team is expecting to make the playoffs and then gets mathematically eliminated and might "Mail in the remaing games" while waiting for golf season to start. In the old days vets would 'Mail it" some games because they needed to conserve for playoffs which is where the thoughts then changed to "The Real Season begins". I don't think that thinking is applicable here because "mailing it in" does not include the failing for a higher draft pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Personally in a rebuild your going to hit a certain bottom, I want a high draft choice only to shorten the rebuild but not at the cost of intentionally losing to do such. This whole process is being done correctly. The ability to have guys fighting for roster spots is a great way to re- circumvent the winning culture we once had. We could see at the beginning of the season how valuable veterans are to this club. We are also at a cross roads as to having to recycle old with new veterans until the cycle is complete. Guys like Backs, and Brodie are no longer younger players as they will now play the role of veterans in the next couple of years. Having players such a s these with a Gio who had to fight for every second of ice time, working to get more time on the ice, in that every shift might be their last is all I ever wanted. Tanking in professional sports is not something one inspires to do, however it is understandable to start at when a rebuild does occur. We should start to panic if we see no improvement in a few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubblejumper1 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 How much more can they lose? I don't think there is any chance that the Flames will try to "tank" for a higher pick. They are working very hard and Hartley doesn't seem to tolerate a lack of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid_Flame91 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Intentionally tanking is just plain bad, But with Hartley behind the bench and Burke behind him, The old attitude is gone. It's either you work your checking from behind off or you can warm the bench, As it should always be. I hate winning on backs of people like Butler, Since we all know the playoffs are gone. If its our rookies, and aspiring prospects, I'm jumping out of my seat in happiness. Wishing that were going to tank and realizing that with the talent that we currently have were going to tank is entirely different things. We plain and simple do not have enough skill, size, truculence, grit, or whatever you think we need. Were not going to address that with FA's. It's going to have to be good draft picks, and smart trades. Just stay on the road were on, and we should be back into play-off contention on a yearly basis within the next 3-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I'll do that ..good suggestion. Thanks DD. I would have prefered a simpler yes or no as while I type this it's 3 against tanking & 3 on the "it's not that simple" side. That choice is yes to tanking but has excuses. Excuses are usually made when someone fails. I see it as a black & white question. Tank or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 The simple answer is Absolutely Not! Coaches coach to win and players play to win at all times! This is the most fundamental rule of professional hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 While on the one hand, ill totally admit up front I cheer for losses at this stage, I definitely at no time want the team to do it on purpose. As stated by a few above, you cant just suddenly switch it on, a look north shows this to be true. I want to see effort, a compete level that says we are trying to win every game until it becomes ingrained in our culture. Would I love to see a ton of one goal losses over the final stretch? Absolutely..but anybody coasting or "mailing it in" should be handled the same way a top 5 team would....by replacing them in an apprpriate way. Bench, demote, or move them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordxan Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I want the team to get a higher draft choice, but I don't want them to lose intentionally. I like that they're trying hard and by not having the old core and vets on the team, the team is right where it should be. I don't mind if we're lower in the standings because it is where we are at and I am happy they're trying. So far, because they were supposed to finish last in the entire league, they're almost over achieving and it is a great mindset to have. Gone are the days of mailing it in... Which I just never understood. I want this team to taste success and constantly thirst for it. You're either in it to win or to lose, effort proves it. Bold part sums it up for me. There are other ways to get the higher pick, trades and the like, though, I do hope we get a high pick like top 3, but if not and we are in the top 5 there is room to move and BB has done it before. The key moving forward is to establish a competitive mind set, The Oil have shown what happens if you fail to establish that with your younger guys. However, keeping all our vets is NOT what we need to do that, we need thin our Vet line out a bit more and give more playing time to your promising young guys, thus keeping some leadership to help instill the competitive mindset. With that said, moving our vets earlier served no purpose, as their value is undoubtedly higher at deadline day than any other time of the season say for the off season. Just my thoughts, other may differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Interesting way to put it but I am not so sure "mailing it in" is the same thing. Although I can see where you might use the term when a team is expecting to make the playoffs and then gets mathematically eliminated and might "Mail in the remaing games" while waiting for golf season to start. In the old days vets would 'Mail it" some games because they needed to conserve for playoffs which is where the thoughts then changed to "The Real Season begins". I don't think that thinking is applicable here because "mailing it in" does not include the failing for a higher draft pick. It is exactly what I was referring to, the old days when there was a country club atmosphere in the dressing room. I think the "mailing it in" mind set added to and was possibly one of the main reasons for that country club atmosphere. I was saying how happy I am those days are over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Argus Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I would say no, it's not okay to lose for the sake of a higher draft pick. I will say, though, that it is okay for a team to recognize their position (as the Flames finally have this year, and should have in previous years), and sell off assets if appropriate, even knowing that it will probably mean more losses. Basically, I'm fine with trades that make us less competitive (i.e., more likely to lose) in the short term, as long as they have clear upside in the long term. As for the cheering for losing thing, I'll admit I'm kind of divided. If we were to magically fast-forward to the season's end, I'd be happier if we finished bottom five than just out of the playoffs (given where we're at in this stage of our rebuild). But when it comes to watching the games, or checking the score after the game is done, I can't help but cheer for the Flames and my favorite players to do well! So I guess I'm kind of the in the same boat as Cross. With the way the Flames have been playing, it's a win-win. If we work hard and lose, great, that's a step closer to a better draft spot. If we work hard and win, that's great too, because it's instilling a culture that will pay dividends in a few years when the team is competitive in terms of talent level. It's even better if we're winning because our young guys are playing well. I'd like to add, from that perspective, this season has been darn near perfect. We've been competitive in all but a handful of games this year, lots of 1 goal games, great effort all around, good production from many of our young guys and core players. And yet, we're still bottom 5 with a chance at bottom 2 (I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Buffalo has the bottom spot locked up). I'd say the only significant black mark on the season is the team's mishandling of Baertschi, and his subsequent under-performance. But we have to remind ourselves that he was never a sure-fire prospect, and anyway, there's still plenty of chance for him to turn things around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 This topic has been debated regularly on these boards the past 3 seasons and inevitably, it breaks down to these two underlying questions, 1. Is it okay to be rewarded for losing? NO, it's not okay to be rewarded for losing but through the evolution of North American sports, the NHL has adopted a system that offers just that, a reward to teams that lose more among other teams that also lose a lot. This should change and the introduction of a draft lottery helps to elimate this reward. Pro sports should be about winning games at all times and Fans should not be encouraged to cheer for loses when the playoffs are out of reach. As we stand today, the draft lottery is not enough and they need to curb the lottery odds more in the effort to further encourage competitive integrity amongst teams, stop teams from tossing their season for high draft picks, and most importantly, stop fans of these teams to cheer for such a direction. It's about ethics, morals, and the integrity of pro sports. The NHL needs to do more to promote healthier environments amongst losing teams. 2. Should we lose if there's a reward? YES. It's the product of the NHL's doing. There is a reward for tanking to the cellar when the playoffs are all but out of reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4xon Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 This topic has been debated regularly on these boards the past 3 seasons and inevitably, it breaks down to these two underlying questions, 1. Is it okay to be rewarded for losing? NO, it's not okay to be rewarded for losing but through the evolution of North American sports, the NHL has adopted a system that offers just that, a reward to teams that lose more among other teams that also lose a lot. This should change and the introduction of a draft lottery helps to elimate this reward. Pro sports should be about winning games at all times and Fans should not be encouraged to cheer for loses when the playoffs are out of reach. As we stand today, the draft lottery is not enough and they need to curb the lottery odds more in the effort to further encourage competitive integrity amongst teams, stop teams from tossing their season for high draft picks, and most importantly, stop fans of these teams to cheer for such a direction. It's about ethics, morals, and the integrity of pro sports. The NHL needs to do more to promote healthier environments amongst losing teams. 2. Should we lose if there's a reward? YES. It's the product of the NHL's doing. There is a reward for tanking to the cellar when the playoffs are all but out of reach. Peeps, we've gone 11 rounds with this before, and I'll start the 12th round swinging. You are just plain wrong (in my mind) in that line of thinking. It's borderline cancerous, and I definitely don't want it anywhere near the Flames locker room. If the Flames lose due to a poor lineup, then so be it, if the picks fall into line because of the said losing, so be it. However, to purposefully lose, or hope for losses proves nothing when it comes to the said club. Here in lies the country club mentality. "Lets play when it's convenient" does nothing for the progression of an NHL club. That mentality spreads cancer throughout the locker room and forces the coming generations to catch the virus. It's unacceptable. This is the National Hockey League, the highest form of hockey on the planet. In no way should a professional hockey team of the NHL caliber pack it in and let the anchor drop for the rest of the season for the benefit of a shiny new prized prospect at the end of a poor season. Playing to win is playing the game properly. Plain and simple. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, I checked the "It's not that simple" box in the poll because there are other factors in play. Playing to win is a must, however, if the result of trying your best results in a loss, then there's nothing a team can do about it and they accept their place in the standings. It's up to the players, and the coaching staff to do everything in their power to win. Most would say it's up to the GM and the Coach to ice the best team possible. The GM, and the coach, however, can tweak a team's makeup in order to sway their place in the standings. It's been done before, and it sure as hell will continue. We've all seen it. It's the reason Eakins has been playing Bryz when Scrivens has been lights out. If the Flames choose not to ice their best team, then there's really nothing us fans can do about it. I don't get angry after losses at this point in the season, because it benefits the draft position of the team. But in no way do I condone losing for the sake of draft position. Much like Cross, I view wins and losses as a win/win at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 One thing I would add is that there seems to be a theory that getting the first overal pick is a consequence free reward. Tank on purpose, get the best player on the draft and become a better team it's as simple as that because you can come into the next season and flip a switch to suddenly play like a better team that just lied down dead ye year before. I don't think it works that way because I think you have to consider the dangerous bad habits you develop and the culture you develop when you agree it is better to lose then win. As Vince Lombardi said, "winning is a habit, unfortunately so is losing" an look no further then Edmonton or the island as an example. These teams have tons of "rewards" but don't know how to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zirakzigil Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Its not that simple, Burke needs to trade away some of the veterans and bring up more youth, that will make the team lose more. Hartley needs to keep the team on a losing is unacceptable attitude. Losing purposefully just makes the team wind up as the Oilers, all high picks and poor team attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Tanking for a higher pick makes no sense. Picking in the 1-5 range doesn't guarantee you a better NHLer than picking 6-20. It's nice to think scouting is a perfect world, but it's far from it. There is no point in sending your players a message that you're going to mess around with the lineup and toss your vets overboard, because you're sending the message that you're thoroughly displeased with everyone. You end up with a frustrated group that introduces frustration to whoever you bring up. No one wants to work for misery, you want to keep a positive environment, because when you promote a negative one, it's hard to erase that memory from the people you want to keep. Edmonton is anchored right now because of exactly that, imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Peeps, we've gone 11 rounds with this before, and I'll start the 12th round swinging. You are just plain wrong (in my mind) in that line of thinking. It's borderline cancerous, and I definitely don't want it anywhere near the Flames locker room. If the Flames lose due to a poor lineup, then so be it, if the picks fall into line because of the said losing, so be it. However, to purposefully lose, or hope for losses proves nothing when it comes to the said club. Here in lies the country club mentality. "Lets play when it's convenient" does nothing for the progression of an NHL club. That mentality spreads cancer throughout the locker room and forces the coming generations to catch the virus. It's unacceptable. This is the National Hockey League, the highest form of hockey on the planet. In no way should a professional hockey team of the NHL caliber pack it in and let the anchor drop for the rest of the season for the benefit of a shiny new prized prospect at the end of a poor season. Playing to win is playing the game properly. Plain and simple. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, I checked the "It's not that simple" box in the poll because there are other factors in play. Playing to win is a must, however, if the result of trying your best results in a loss, then there's nothing a team can do about it and they accept their place in the standings. It's up to the players, and the coaching staff to do everything in their power to win. Most would say it's up to the GM and the Coach to ice the best team possible. The GM, and the coach, however, can tweak a team's makeup in order to sway their place in the standings. It's been done before, and it sure as hell will continue. We've all seen it. It's the reason Eakins has been playing Bryz when Scrivens has been lights out. If the Flames choose not to ice their best team, then there's really nothing us fans can do about it. I don't get angry after losses at this point in the season, because it benefits the draft position of the team. But in no way do I condone losing for the sake of draft position. Much like Cross, I view wins and losses as a win/win at this point. I'm coming from a perspective of a fan and only as a fan. What I mean by that is, when I say "WE should lose" i don't literally mean the players, coaches, etc go play to lose. I meant "we as fans should CHEER for losses". The players, coaches, etc should STILL play to win regardless of what we cheer for. If you understand where i'm coming from, then you will see we actually agree on almost everything. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 One thing I would add is that there seems to be a theory that getting the first overal pick is a consequence free reward. Tank on purpose, get the best player on the draft and become a better team it's as simple as that because you can come into the next season and flip a switch to suddenly play like a better team that just lied down dead ye year before. I don't think it works that way because I think you have to consider the dangerous bad habits you develop and the culture you develop when you agree it is better to lose then win. As Vince Lombardi said, "winning is a habit, unfortunately so is losing" an look no further then Edmonton or the island as an example. These teams have tons of "rewards" but don't know how to win 100% agreed with the mistaken idea that getting the first overall pick will instantly turn a team around the next season because it simply doesn't. You still have to draft well in the second, third rounds and beyond. You still have to sign the right free agents and create the right lockeroom balance. But that's not the debate here. The debate is, which of the following two would you prefer as a fan? A. 1st overall pick but last place in the standings B. 6th overall pick and 24th out of 30 teams Which is better? In my opinion, the higher the draft pick, the better and that's because we missed the playoffs anyways. Why is it suddenly that cheering for 1st overall pick means all the negative connotations attached like, "tanking", "being the stinky Oilers", "creating a losing environment", "never getting out of the cellar", etc. Meanwhile finishing with 6th pick overall is free of that stigma? Lastly, a lot here seem to think the Oilers and Islanders have patented the meaning of tanking but it's not true. There was also the Chicago Blackhawks and Pittsburgh Penguins who tanked it and came back strong. There were also teams who refused to tank it like the Nashville Predators, Columbus Blue Jackets, who have been stuck in mediocrity forever. Every team has their own story. I cheer for the Flames to get the 1st overall pick, AND draft well in the second, third rounds and beyond. I cheer for them to sign the right free agents and create the best group of leaders in the locker room moving into the future. BUT OH NO! Since the Flames are going for the 1st overall pick, that means nothing else after that can ever happen. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I'm coming from a perspective of a fan and only as a fan. I meant "we as fans should CHEER for losses". Isn't that the complete opposite of being a fan? I cheer for my team to win. If I want losses I want them from teams like the Canucks, Rangers & Pens. You know, teams I don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Isn't that the complete opposite of being a fan? I cheer for my team to win. If I want losses I want them from teams like the Canucks, Rangers & Pens. You know, teams I don't like. It's the result of the NHL's draft system: losing games means winning a higher draft pick. You are right in that it shouldn't be that way and things need to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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