Goaltending

[phoenix66]

10 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

BTW, does anyone else remember that Mike Smith's best years were behind a Phoenix team that made Ilya Bryzgalov look great?

 

Sorry. I'm just disappointed this is the best BT could do.

 

I think it was more the benefit of Sean Burke's Coaching . Even a short time in Phoenix and Dubnyk came out a different goaltender entirely .

 

Don;t take offense , I don't mean this a slight in the least , in fact the Flyers were always my favourite team until the Flames came to town .. but Bryz's issue I believe was going to The Philly Goalie Graveyard .

Don't know what it is about Philly..seems the only way they get goalies there is to homegrow them.Like the Curse of Pelle Lindbergh or something . Hextall part 2 wasn't near the goalie Part 1 was before he went to Quebec.

In my lifetime , only Parent , Lindbergh and Hextall have been true star goalies long term (Peeters was close).. something about playing there just brings goalies down .

 

[phoenix66]

After reading this article, I don't get a good feeling about getting a goalie from Vegas

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/06/18/mcphee-has-cache-of-quality-players-to-choose-from

 

basically outlines how the bidding war will work.. not just between teams calling about a player , but the team they're coming from too.

For example , we want Raanta?  NYR wants to keep Raanta.. he will pit Calgary against the Rangers for the best deal. along with the other teams asking .

Basically I can see  the price getting very steep.

 

So, since we have basically 3 days to kill,  let's assume for a second Johnson is also off the table.. that leaves UFA as our best options .. if we keep it under 2M on a 1 yr deal, who we looking at  that can realistically give us 30-35 top quality starts?

Definitely some interesting names to pick from :

Budaj

Nilsson

Condon

 

Those are the 1st ones that jump off the page 

 

 

 

[travel_dude]

30 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

BTW, does anyone else remember that Mike Smith's best years were behind a Phoenix team that made Ilya Bryzgalov look great?

 

Sorry. I'm just disappointed this is the best BT could do.

 

I know injuries can impact any player, but keep in mind that an "athletic" goalie at age 35 has risk.  What do we have as the fall back plan?

Gillies and Rittich or is one of those the backup this year in the NHL.

 

Not going to get bent out of shape about the trade, but this is a very short term fix, if it in fact fixes anything.  If one of the current prospects isn't ready next year as a backup, then we are hooped.  If BT makes another smart trade or UFA signing, then it's not so bad.

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

I know injuries can impact any player, but keep in mind that an "athletic" goalie at age 35 has risk.  What do we have as the fall back plan?

Gillies and Rittich or is one of those the backup this year in the NHL.

 

Not going to get bent out of shape about the trade, but this is a very short term fix, if it in fact fixes anything.  If one of the current prospects isn't ready next year as a backup, then we are hooped.  If BT makes another smart trade or UFA signing, then it's not so bad.

Theres absolutely a part 2 coming .. BT is already on record stating Gilies and Rittich are in Stockton again next year 

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Theres absolutely a part 2 coming .. BT is already on record stating Gilies and Rittich are in Stockton again next year 

 

If you are sure about that, then let's hope part 2 is better than part 1.  

This ranks up there with trading a 3rd for Bollig, signing Brouwer long term, and extending Bouma.

 

[JTech780]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

BTW, does anyone else remember that Mike Smith's best years were behind a Phoenix team that made Ilya Bryzgalov look great?

 

Sorry. I'm just disappointed this is the best BT could do.

 

I see Smith in a similar light as Rinne and the stats back it up.

[Cowtownguy]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are sure about that, then let's hope part 2 is better than part 1.  

This ranks up there with trading a 3rd for Bollig, signing Brouwer long term, and extending Bouma.

 

At least he didn't protect or extend Dennis Wideman.

[cccsberg]

8 hours ago, MAC331 said:

You think Raanta ad Grubauer will fetch 1st round picks really ? I don't think so.

Bishop got a third, for his rights only.  I think you're a bit too high.

 

[MAC331]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Bishop got a third, for his rights only.  I think you're a bit too high.

 

I was asking not stating

[jaybooitt19]

19 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Try closing your eyes?

 

Also, the site does allow this.   In the simplest way I could possibly imagine.   If you can't figure that out, my posts are sure to annoy you.  Get someone to help you with the feature for sure.

Wow JJ,

You just made my day by blessing me with the knowledge that I can ignore you from this point forward. I will no longer have to read about how awful this team's management/scouting/goaltending/goaltendingcoach/GM/head coach/assistant coaches/AHL coaches are. Your constant negativity will not be missed. Good luck in your future endeavours as the greatest GM in the history of the Calgary Flames. 

[phoenix66]

16 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Bishop got a third, for his rights only.  I think you're a bit too high.

 

True.. but he was also UFA

Anderson for example , got a 1st, 2nd and basically Bernier

 

Now imagine if you will, that same scenario that the league is forcing Anaheim to outbid Toronto to keep that player .. thats the position McPhee is putting teams like NYR in .

NYR want to keep Raanta?  they have to outbid the teams that are calling him to pick Raanta and trade him to them 

[Flyerfan52]

8 minutes ago, jaybooitt19 said:

Wow JJ,

You just made my day by blessing me with the knowledge that I can ignore you from this point forward. I will no longer have to read about how awful this team's management/scouting/goaltending/goaltendingcoach/GM/head coach/assistant coaches/AHL coaches are. Your constant negativity will not be missed. Good luck in your future endeavours as the greatest GM in the history of the Calgary Flames. 

JJ actually provides a good counterpoint when others get a little too gung-ho. I've had a lot of arguements with him but value his viewpoint since I'm not of the ilk where I see every draft selection/trade addition/UFA signing as the last piece to a dynasty Edmonton style.

Like him I do post unpopular views when dissapointed by moves made or I think a prospect/players is being over-rated by other fans.

If you want all "Rah Rah, Go Flames" (& I usually do the Go Flames every game day) you might want to use the ignore feature on me as well. There isn't discussion without opposing views.

[Flyerfan52]

20 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

True.. but he was also UFA

Anderson for example , got a 1st, 2nd and basically Bernier

 

Now imagine if you will, that same scenario that the league is forcing Anaheim to outbid Toronto to keep that player .. thats the position McPhee is putting teams like NYR in .

NYR want to keep Raanta?  they have to outbid the teams that are calling him to pick Raanta and trade him to them 

I'll use Dumba as an example. Say the Wild offer their 1st to take anyone else & the Jets offer a higher 1st (or a 2nd & a forward deemed ready) Vegas will weigh that against the player left from Minny & that 1st vs the Jets offer.

 

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

I'll use Dumba as an example. Say the Wild offer their 1st to take anyone else & the Jets offer a higher 1st (or a 2nd & a forward deemed ready) Vegas will weigh that against the player left from Minny & that 1st vs the Jets offer.

 

Exactly .. I expect to see higher than normal returns in some cases.

 

I'm perfectly willing to smile and give up #16 for Raanta or Grubauer.. but if we start talking a Goalie prospect back no higher than McDonald, then I feel its UFA time for the #2

My worry is McPhee will factor in also the player they would have gotten from say , NYR instead and expect us to pony up a similar player.. in which case, Pass

[AlbertaBoy12]

26 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm perfectly willing to smile and give up #16 for Raanta or Grubauer.. but if we start talking a Goalie prospect back no higher than McDonald, then I feel its UFA time for the #2

My worry is McPhee will factor in also the player they would have gotten from say , NYR instead and expect us to pony up a similar player.. in which case, Pass

Im curious why we would want to see raanta or grubauer here at the cost of #16, id be ok with using the #16 pick to acquire a top 4 d man but to acquire another goalie, when  we already have parsons and gillies coming, I think we should pass. I would have taken a stab at one of those two for the same deal we got smith for, but for a first rounder and probably more which it sounds like was the asking price ill take a pass.

[MAC331]

Just now, AlbertaBoy12 said:

Im curious why we would want to see raanta or grubauer here at the cost of #16, id be ok with using the #16 pick to acquire a top 4 d man but to acquire another goalie, when  we already have parsons and gillies coming, I think we should pass. I would have taken a stab at one of those two for the same deal we got smith for, but for a first rounder and probably more which it sounds like was the asking price ill take a pass.

Yeah that won't happen. I think BT traded for Smith so there was no question of using the #16 for a goalie.

[AlbertaBoy12]

Just now, MAC331 said:

Yeah that won't happen. I think BT traded for Smith so there was no question of using the #16 for a goalie.

well I think thats a good plan, as alot of people are seeing either parsons or gillies as a #1, so no point in using that kind of pick as well for a goalie.

[jaybooitt19]

1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

JJ actually provides a good counterpoint when others get a little too gung-ho. I've had a lot of arguements with him but value his viewpoint since I'm not of the ilk where I see every draft selection/trade addition/UFA signing as the last piece to a dynasty Edmonton style.

Like him I do post unpopular views when dissapointed by moves made or I think a prospect/players is being over-rated by other fans.

If you want all "Rah Rah, Go Flames" (& I usually do the Go Flames every game day) you might want to use the ignore feature on me as well. There isn't discussion without opposing views.

Done. I have no problem with opposing views and good discussion, but it gets old when the same people are constantly spewing their negative viewpoints. 

[cross16]

Giving up the 16th pick for Raanta or Grubauer would be horrific asset management on the Flames part. 

[JTech780]

3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Giving up the 16th pick for Raanta or Grubauer would be horrific asset management on the Flames part. 

 

I agree. We will most likely target a UFA backup at this point. I think one of Bernier, Johnson, Kuemper, Nilsson or Condon would be the best way to go. They are all very good, could most likely step up and start for awhile if needed and none of them are going to break the bank.

[phoenix66]

39 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Giving up the 16th pick for Raanta or Grubauer would be horrific asset management on the Flames part. 

I get what you are thinking , but I disagree.

 

My thinking is its bad management to Bank that both Rittich and Gillies are going to be able to handle 82 games in 2 years .Parsons is at least a year or 2 behind those 2 

How many homegrown  heir apparents has this team had?

Kidd, McIlhenney, Irving, Ortio...  long list ..and pretty much only Kidd did anything with his career .. next closest is McIlhenney is a quality backup . And aside from Kidd, its not that we managed them badly , just that with goaltenders you cant predict with 100% accuracy what they will be at this level 

 

I was definitely against trusting the #1 role to a fresh face next year , but to put one in the #2 spot makes total sense.

Trading for Grubauer or Raanta is no different than trading for Anderson .

By doing it this way you are insured against the possibility of Smith Declining  (I personally think he will be just fine , but , plan for the worst) , against injury , and you solidify the path..  if we end up with 3 quality starters in 2 years time ? Bonus..  trade one.

 

If we go the known backup route , we are now gambling that Smith is going to give you 2 years of solid quality 55-60 games + playoffs  or suddenly that backup guy is gona be the #1...  again , I dont think it will happen , I predict Smith will shut people up pretty quick,  but you have to cover you bases 

 

Giving up the #16 in a weak draft for a guy many wanted to give 60 games to next year, I dont think is a stretch... but again if it goes much beyond that , then No , its not worth it..absolutely at that time go get a quality backup via UFA

[cross16]

In 3 years now the Flames have spent 2 2nd round picks in the draft on goalies.

2 2nd round picks on guys supposed to be their starter

plus 1 good prospect

 

and it's a good idea to spend another high end asset? I don't care that it is a "weak" draft the Flames organization is nowhere near the point where they can be throwing away this many picks.

 

If you can't find a goalie using those asset (and i'm even ignoring the 3rd rounder they used to get Gilles) then multiple people deserve to be fired. That is horrible incompetence. I get the point about doubling down but there is no way i will ever agree it's a good idea to spend that much capital on 1 position, especially with so many needs elsewhere and an organization that is not exactly swimming in depth. 

[MAC331]

46 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I get what you are thinking , but I disagree.

 

My thinking is its bad management to Bank that both Rittich and Gillies are going to be able to handle 82 games in 2 years .Parsons is at least a year or 2 behind those 2 

How many homegrown  heir apparents has this team had?

Kidd, McIlhenney, Irving, Ortio...  long list ..and pretty much only Kidd did anything with his career .. next closest is McIlhenney is a quality backup . And aside from Kidd, its not that we managed them badly , just that with goaltenders you cant predict with 100% accuracy what they will be at this level 

 

I was definitely against trusting the #1 role to a fresh face next year , but to put one in the #2 spot makes total sense.

Trading for Grubauer or Raanta is no different than trading for Anderson .

By doing it this way you are insured against the possibility of Smith Declining  (I personally think he will be just fine , but , plan for the worst) , against injury , and you solidify the path..  if we end up with 3 quality starters in 2 years time ? Bonus..  trade one.

 

If we go the known backup route , we are now gambling that Smith is going to give you 2 years of solid quality 55-60 games + playoffs  or suddenly that backup guy is gona be the #1...  again , I dont think it will happen , I predict Smith will shut people up pretty quick,  but you have to cover you bases 

 

Giving up the #16 in a weak draft for a guy many wanted to give 60 games to next year, I dont think is a stretch... but again if it goes much beyond that , then No , its not worth it..absolutely at that time go get a quality backup via UFA

I don't think anyone disagrees with the approach of getting another challenger type goaltender but not using this year's 1st to achieve it.

[travel_dude]

33 minutes ago, cross16 said:

In 3 years now the Flames have spent 2 2nd round picks in the draft on goalies.

2 2nd round picks on guys supposed to be their starter

plus 1 good prospect

 

and it's a good idea to spend another high end asset? I don't care that it is a "weak" draft the Flames organization is nowhere near the point where they can be throwing away this many picks.

 

If you can't find a goalie using those asset (and i'm even ignoring the 3rd rounder they used to get Gilles) then multiple people deserve to be fired. That is horrible incompetence. I get the point about doubling down but there is no way i will ever agree it's a good idea to spend that much capital on 1 position, especially with so many needs elsewhere and an organization that is not exactly swimming in depth. 

 

The only way we should logically use the #16 overall to get a goalie, is if it just means trading down a few spots + a prospect we are not high on.  Vegas is going to have picks close to us, possibly NYR, SJS.  It would also have to be a situation where the guys wanted are already picked and the next one available will slip down the board.

 

To Vegas

#16

Shinkaruk

Mason MacDonald

 

To Calgary

Grubauer or Raanta

#21

 

 

 

 

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

If you want all "Rah Rah, Go Flames" (& I usually do the Go Flames every game day) you might want to use the ignore feature on me as well. There isn't discussion without opposing views.

 

4 hours ago, jaybooitt19 said:

Done. 

 

wow

 

well at least the kid's honest lol, have to respect that I suppose?    rainbows and lollipops is what they want, and the technology exists to make it happen (with a little guidance to bridge the inevitable intelligence gap created by only learning from what feels good) lol.