Goaltending

[phoenix66]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I don't want Schneider at the cost of assets and his 6M salary, do you ? I see the cost of Mrazek nuch like Andersson going to TOR from ANA only he is already at a determined salary. I don't view Elliott like you do, I would say he was in a working tandem, believe it or not there use to be quite a few successful ones in the NHL.I would say DET has ever intention of exposing Howard why wouldn't they ? LV will not take him and I would say DET doesn't want 10M tied up in goalies.

You could always make a much bigger deal out of it?

 

To CGY

Hall

Schneider 

Prout

 

To NJ

2017 1st

WotherSpoon

Andrew Mangiapane

 

 

im sure thats not proper value, but just sayin thats an option ..

[MAC331]

9 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Schneider I will not comment on, as I think he isn't in play.  But, I would say the same about Mrazek, unless they have issues with his attitude.  He was their #1 last year, so why would they trade him for futures?  The Andersen deal was a little bit complicated, as it included 30th overall, and a 2nd in 2017.  Part of the deal, though separated due to the $2m bonus owed Berner, included getting Bernier without sending anything unless he played in 50% of the playoffs or was traded and reaches the SCF, as well as plying in 50% of the games.  

 

The reason for Anaheim trading him then was that Gibson was set to be the starter and they wanted to get something ahead of the expansion draft.  And they got the pick in a strong draft.  There is no reason to trade Mrazek.

 

Elliott was set to be the starter last season.  They even had talks with him about re-signing in October.  A good backup should "net" you about 30 games, unless you live in EDM.  If you want to pay the 3rd in 2018 and the cost of Gru, then fine.  Let them play about 40 each.  Or you can go for another "starter" over Elliott and only pay the $$.

I don't blame Elliott for the playoff first round exit.  But, no way would I endorse bringing back both him and CJ.    

If I were bringing back Elliott I wouldn't be even considering Grubauer, not sure where you got that impression. If BT were to go for Grubauer and use assets I would be signing a proven back up like Johnson or Kuemper or Kinkaid. I gave you the reason I think DET trades Mrazek who BTW got most of his playing time last season because Howard was injured for most of it. Regardless DET is retooling and will be looking to put their money to better use than tying up 10M in goalies while the process happens.

[phoenix66]

9 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

If I were bringing back Elliott I wouldn't be even considering Grubauer, not sure where you got that impression. If BT were to go for Grubauer and use assets I would be signing a proven back up like Johnson or Kuemper or Kinkaid. I gave you the reason I think DET trades Mrazek who BTW got most of his playing time last season because Howard was injured for most of it. Regardless DET is retooling and will be looking to put their money to better use than tying up 10M in goalies while the process happens.

This is where we differ .. If Im getting a Grubauer, or  a Raanta or someone similar.. i'm putting the Insurance policy in front of him , not behind him.

We're a playoff team.. can you say with full confidence Grubauer will give us 50-60 games of top level starts next year?  of course not ..nobody can

Even Talbot wasnt Talbot until this year . But, you give him every opportunity to take the job . Right now he's a backup until Holtby leaves ...he has a glass ceiling .

 

your proven backups go behind a proven starter..expecting 25- 35 games from them 

[MAC331]

12 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

You spend the assets now while Gruber, Raanta, Mrazek, etc. is available for fairly small assets as the other team prefers something over the nothing they get if LV picks him. After the draft the chances of landing our young, developed behind a starter that won't be unseated go down or get more costly. The teams likely losing 1 can't ask much as there are few teams bidding due to most having a goalie they want to protect. If LV lands 4 of them they'll keep the best 2 or 3 so we don't land the cream but because others will bid just to improve their backup LV has a seller's market. If say a Grubauer isn't picked by LV the Caps have no reason to trade him for less than a top end return. Or if they make 1 available the team like the Caps that lost 1 will bid because even the next goalie in most systems is a few years away & unproven.

Even if the 1 BT decides on isn't ready this year odds are he will be next year. That's why we hedge the bet with a former stater.

There will be vets that are former starters available as UFA to cushion the transition or be the starter if the 1 BT opts for isn't quite ready. Given that few teams can even offer them the chance they will be the starter prices should be low. For instance if Bernier want's 4 x 3 but Mason (a starter most years) 3.5 x 2 you tell Bernier that you'll give him a bit under what Mason asked but if he wants to take his chances we wish him good luck.

 

We tried 2 career backups last year. That was less than awe inspiring. To me an apt pupil stuck behind a top 5 paired with a guy used to being a starter sounds the better bet.

I did say my first preference was change for a core type goalie such as Mrazek or Grubauer but if we strike out I wouldn't be afraid to go with Elliott and Johnson again.

[phoenix66]

20 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I did say my first preference was change for a core type goalie such as Mrazek or Grubauer but if we strike out I wouldn't be afraid to go with Elliott and Johnson again.

How is Grubauer, Core?  his biggest workload was this year at 24 games.   I agree on Mrazek, he handled a load this  year ..tho it could be argued he wilted under the higher workload.. but i can write that off to the team in front of him 

[MAC331]

10 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

How is Grubauer, Core?  his biggest workload was this year at 24 games.   I agree on Mrazek, he handled a load this  year ..tho it could be argued he wilted under the higher workload.. but i can write that off to the team in front of him 

You have to believe he can work into being your core goalie along with the rest of the core. Why did MON believe Price could be part of their core ?

[MAC331]

22 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

This is where we differ .. If Im getting a Grubauer, or  a Raanta or someone similar.. i'm putting the Insurance policy in front of him , not behind him.

We're a playoff team.. can you say with full confidence Grubauer will give us 50-60 games of top level starts next year?  of course not ..nobody can

Even Talbot wasnt Talbot until this year . But, you give him every opportunity to take the job . Right now he's a backup until Holtby leaves ...he has a glass ceiling .

 

your proven backups go behind a proven starter..expecting 25- 35 games from them 

Can you say he can't ?

[Flyerfan52]

6 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Can you say he can't ?

What he said was he wanted an insurance policy rather than a career backup with the unproven 1 we hope is our future Kipper.

If Grubauer, Raanta does shoulder the load thats great. Like me he's hedging his bet by having the other goalie capable of more than relief.

[MAC331]

Just now, Flyerfan52 said:

What he said was he wanted an insurance policy rather than a career backup with the unproven 1 we hope is our future Kipper.

If Grubauer, Raanta does shoulder the load thats great. Like me he's hedging his bet by having the other goalie capable of more than relief.

Sometimes you can have that luxury but Talbot didn't get it in EDM and I'm sure there are other situations. Get Grubauer first IMO.

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

What he said was he wanted an insurance policy rather than a career backup with the unproven 1 we hope is our future Kipper.

If Grubauer, Raanta does shoulder the load thats great. Like me he's hedging his bet by having the other goalie capable of more than relief.

Exactly!

I'm high on Grubauer.. he may very well be that guy.

teams like Carolina, Old Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo..etc.. can afford to hand the reins to an unproven and say lets find out.. he either catches fire, and you look like a genius.. or he doesn't and you miss the playoffs  , but nobody expected you to anyway.

We dont have that luxury anymore.. we try and fail, many people lose their jobs.

It's also rarely instant..  there were still question marks about Talbot after last year .. could he take it to the next level..   in this case he did .

But if he fails, I want an Elliot, a Reimer, or the like to take over .

[phoenix66]

14 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

Sometimes you can have that luxury but Talbot didn't get it in EDM and I'm sure there are other situations. Get Grubauer first IMO.

Oh , totally go get him .. there are many options that dont have to be done before the ED..get Grubauer,  protect him, then go get the other afterwards..swing a deal with Vegas to get you the other one if you have to

 

The only way you dont go get a Grubauer or a Raanta is if they target a MAF for example.. then you add the proven backup cuz i guy like that is your starter the day you get him and you plan on him playing 60+ games

[Flyerfan52]

Wondering what the Avs (or LV) would want for Pickard. I forgot during the Worlds he's b/u to Varlamov.

[phoenix66]

7 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Wondering what the Avs (or LV) would want for Pickard. I forgot during the Worlds he's b/u to Varlamov.

I wondered about that too, but the state they're in I can see them protecting him and trying to unload Varlamov.  2 hip surgeries, he'll likely get passed over by LV. Depending how much you want to gamble , that's 2 years at 5.9..  he may be 100% or never the same again .

[Flyerfan52]

2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I wondered about that too, but the state they're in I can see them protecting him and trying to unload Varlamov.  2 hip surgeries, he'll likely get passed over by LV. Depending how much you want to gamble , that's 2 years at 5.9..  he may be 100% or never the same again .

True 'nough. I've heard they were trying to unload Varlamov.

I'm not ready to take that risk on Varlamov.

[phoenix66]

BonaFide Starter

[boh-nuh fahyd] [stahr-ter] 

 

1. makes the easy saves and consistently bails you out when you make a mistake

2. See Pekka Rinne

[phoenix66]

21 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

True 'nough. I've heard they were trying to unload Varlamov.

I'm not ready to take that risk on Varlamov.

If they ate half his salary I might risk him in the #2 spot..  low risk/ high reward for 2.95M

[Flyerfan52]

4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

If they ate half his salary I might risk him in the #2 spot..  low risk/ high reward for 2.95M

True but I'm kind of saving that spot for a starter to back up Grubauer.

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

If I were bringing back Elliott I wouldn't be even considering Grubauer, not sure where you got that impression. If BT were to go for Grubauer and use assets I would be signing a proven back up like Johnson or Kuemper or Kinkaid. I gave you the reason I think DET trades Mrazek who BTW got most of his playing time last season because Howard was injured for most of it. Regardless DET is retooling and will be looking to put their money to better use than tying up 10M in goalies while the process happens.

 

If you are suggesting a combo of Elliott/CJ, then you can keep them.  If you are suggesting CJ as a backup, you can keep him.  CJ played himself out of contention with his games in December through March.  Not sure I would bet the farm on either of those backups with Gru.  Too much risk.

 

Retooling teams do not trade their heir apparent.  LA, ANA, and NYR were not retooling when they sent their 2nd best goalies away.  They had starters that they could not give enough games to.  DET may be forced to buy out Howard.  Or they could trade and retain $$.

 

 

[phoenix66]

anybody who doesn't think you need a goalie that stands on his head to beat Anaheim, is not watching this game.. Love them or hate them (and I hate them ) fact is Anaheim keeps coming up to the final whistle

[MAC331]

37 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are suggesting a combo of Elliott/CJ, then you can keep them.  If you are suggesting CJ as a backup, you can keep him.  CJ played himself out of contention with his games in December through March.  Not sure I would bet the farm on either of those backups with Gru.  Too much risk.

 

Retooling teams do not trade their heir apparent.  LA, ANA, and NYR were not retooling when they sent their 2nd best goalies away.  They had starters that they could not give enough games to.  DET may be forced to buy out Howard.  Or they could trade and retain $$.

 

 

We will see, no sense disputing with you.

[travel_dude]

NAME	GP	GAA	SV%	ES SV%	LD SV%	MD SV%	HD SV%	RECORD
ANTTI RAANTA	30	2.27	92.20	93.31	98.66	91.81	82.72	16-8-2
JOONAS KORPISALO	14	2.88	90.52	90.80	95.80	91.46	80.85	7-5-1
PHILIPP GRUBAUER	23	2.05	92.60	93.98	99.5	93.19	82.55	13-6-2

 

 

NAME	GP	GAA	SV%	ES SV%	LD SV%	MD SV%	HD SV%	RECORD
MARC-ANDRE FLEURY	38	3.02	90.90	91.69	98.56	91.13	81.61	18-10-7
BRIAN ELLIOTT	49	2.55	90.97	92.12	97.92	93.32	77.74	26-18-3
CHAD JOHNSON	36	2.59	91.00	91.57	97.72	91.71	80.33	18-15-1
STEVE MASON	58	2.66	90.81	91.77	98.25	91.59	76.47	26-21-8
MICHAL NEUVIRTH	28	2.82	89.10	90.21	94.76	91.87	74.62	11-11-1
MIKE CONDON	41	2.50	91.44	91.98	97.06	90.93	82.53	19-14-6
JONATHAN BERNIER	38	2.51	91.55	92.27	97.16	92.75	80.09	21-7-4
RYAN MILLER	54	2.80	91.36	92.65	97.46	92.82	79.95	18-29-6
BEN BISHOP	39	2.52	90.96	92.45	97.97	89.56	81.62	18-15-5
MIKE SMITH	55	2.92	91.42	92.53	97.74	91.92	81.60	19-26-9

 

 

Just some stats for the goalies out there.

[cross16]

The buzz from the Avalanche is they will protect Varlamov and expose Pickard. Pickard has some good games now and then but he really isn't that good of a goalie. He's probably an avg backup but not a starter IMO so I wouldn't really have interest in him. Rather just keep Johnson at that point. 

[phoenix66]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

NAME	GP	GAA	SV%	ES SV%	LD SV%	MD SV%	HD SV%	RECORD
ANTTI RAANTA	30	2.27	92.20	93.31	98.66	91.81	82.72	16-8-2
JOONAS KORPISALO	14	2.88	90.52	90.80	95.80	91.46	80.85	7-5-1
PHILIPP GRUBAUER	23	2.05	92.60	93.98	99.5	93.19	82.55	13-6-2

 

 

NAME	GP	GAA	SV%	ES SV%	LD SV%	MD SV%	HD SV%	RECORD
MARC-ANDRE FLEURY	38	3.02	90.90	91.69	98.56	91.13	81.61	18-10-7
BRIAN ELLIOTT	49	2.55	90.97	92.12	97.92	93.32	77.74	26-18-3
CHAD JOHNSON	36	2.59	91.00	91.57	97.72	91.71	80.33	18-15-1
STEVE MASON	58	2.66	90.81	91.77	98.25	91.59	76.47	26-21-8
MICHAL NEUVIRTH	28	2.82	89.10	90.21	94.76	91.87	74.62	11-11-1
MIKE CONDON	41	2.50	91.44	91.98	97.06	90.93	82.53	19-14-6
JONATHAN BERNIER	38	2.51	91.55	92.27	97.16	92.75	80.09	21-7-4
RYAN MILLER	54	2.80	91.36	92.65	97.46	92.82	79.95	18-29-6
BEN BISHOP	39	2.52	90.96	92.45	97.97	89.56	81.62	18-15-5
MIKE SMITH	55	2.92	91.42	92.53	97.74	91.92	81.60	19-26-9

 

 

Just some stats for the goalies out there.

this explains a LOT... especially my aversion to Mason ..worse than Elliot in the HD shots 

[travel_dude]

13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

this explains a LOT... especially my aversion to Mason ..worse than Elliot in the HD shots 

 

It's a little hard to compare apples to apples here.  Elliott supposedly good at MD, but not great at LD and HD.  The HD numbers are possibly impacted by coverage down low, which the Flames struggled at.  I can't say with any certainty that Philly's defense down low was any better.  Besides, Mason had a down year compared to his historical numbers.  

 

The first chart shows what the eye test did, and that Gru is a good goalie.  Maybe not 100% ready for a starter role, but has the best numbers of the 3.  Better than Condon, Bernier, CJ.  

 

Put a better defense in front of Mason for 46 games and Gru for the other 46 and you could well have a great tandem.  The only cost to obtain would be for Gru.  Maybe there's a better 1b goalie out there than Mason, but he will rebound.  Sign him to a one year term or two years at a reduced cost.

[MAC331]

12 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

this explains a LOT... especially my aversion to Mason ..worse than Elliot in the HD shots 

This is the funny part or as some say the "voodoo" part when it comes to goalies. We are talking less than a "point" here and there but praising or condemning them if saves are not made at the right time. LOL

I see BT making a significant move to obtain a significant alternative as our goalie of the future. What he does for a possible partner will come down to cost. It will take a significant number of assets to obtain any of Mrazek, Grubauer or Raanta if those are the targets. I don't see BT wanting to spend any more than 2.5 to back up this position.