Goaltending

[travel_dude]

I don't understand flames fan who are going to "knock" Fleury for his playoff record. Flames have made the playoffs once in the last 7 seasons. His has 3 years left on his deal and if he can get yo there every year and give you a chance to win even just a round it's a huge win.

 

Regular season results show him to be a good to great goalie.  No problem with that.  I was tempering that with playoff results as they tend to show a trend.  Unable to perform when needed.  Whether that was due to the team letting him down or he has traits that get exposed during a series; who knows.

 

Would he be an upgrade?  Absolutely.  

 

Seeing where Elliott fit in, I would tend to rate the top 3 available in trade (without seeing Bishop's) as:

Elliott

MAF

Andersen

 

Best option for a FA signing:

Reimer

[kehatch]

Regular season results show him to be a good to great goalie.  No problem with that.  I was tempering that with playoff results as they tend to show a trend.  Unable to perform when needed.  Whether that was due to the team letting him down or he has traits that get exposed during a series; who knows.

 

Would he be an upgrade?  Absolutely.  

 

Seeing where Elliott fit in, I would tend to rate the top 3 available in trade (without seeing Bishop's) as:

Elliott

MAF

Andersen

 

Best option for a FA signing:

Reimer

 

I like Elliot and I agree with your list.  My problem with Elliot is that I don't think the Blues need to trade him. Elliot was their guy in the playoffs and with another year under contract it makes more sense for them to keep both.  I also don't like that he has one more year under contract because I think that is going to put the Flames in a tough spot in 1-season when it is time to sign him, especially since he will be 32.  

[phoenix66]

But he hadn't given the pens a chance to win a round in most of his playoffs with the Pens. Last year was better than most years.

I won't get into his start this year because it was coming off a long break so he gets a pass on that one.

I say if our goal is to make the playoffs and get a decent regular season from him I will be ok, but don't expect him to perform better than Ramo in the playoffs.

Gotta also point out that the Pens are not and have not been the Flames. It's comparing apples to oranges. Malkin, Crosby, Kunitz, letang, and others to who? Iginla, then a rebuild and now a youth core who got us in on luck that the other teams took a year off.

 

 

I actually thought Ramo was pretty good in the Playoffs, certainly not the reason we lost.

In the Big picture tho , Id be looking at Reimer before Fleury.. lower cost , stats pretty comparable . and you could probably add a quality backup from free agency as well for the same $ as MAF alone

[MAC331]

I have questions about Vasilevskiy's game.  I liked most of what I saw in the playoffs, but I was looking at his regular season results.  Not exactly impressive.  He played against a lot of non-playoff teams, and had about 9 wins against them.  Not as impressive against playoff teams in the regular season.  That may be due to being rusty, but it's worrysome.

I don't think you ever get a fair assessment of any players true abilities without consistent play. Sutter went and got Kiprusoff because he saw potential in a 3rd string goalie not getting his opportunity. I have always felt for back up goalies and how they get used, with people expecting them to pull off miracle wins when used. Stats don't tell the circumstances in how they were created. What I saw was a goalie with a high compete level and I will start there every time.

I actually thought Ramo was pretty good in the Playoffs, certainly not the reason we lost.

In the Big picture tho , Id be looking at Reimer before Fleury.. lower cost , stats pretty comparable . and you could probably add a quality backup from free agency as well for the same $ as MAF alone

Fleury and B Bennett for Stajan and Raymond, there is a deal.

[phoenix66]

I like Elliot and I agree with your list.  My problem with Elliot is that I don't think the Blues need to trade him. Elliot was their guy in the playoffs and with another year under contract it makes more sense for them to keep both.  I also don't like that he has one more year under contract because I think that is going to put the Flames in a tough spot in 1-season when it is time to sign him, especially since he will be 32.  

agree, I dont see the Blues trading him. Hes too cap friendly, they arent being forced to trade him in any way , and Armstrong is already on record as saying he isnt looking to trade either of his goalies

[cross16]

Reimer is fine so long as you can get him on shorter term. If it requires a 4 year deal or 5 mill or more I don't agree he is a better option than fleury.

Remember Reimer's career high in Games played is 36. Acquiring him and paying him at a starter level I would argue is significantly more risky than acquiring fleury.

[kehatch]

I actually thought Ramo was pretty good in the Playoffs, certainly not the reason we lost.

In the Big picture tho , Id be looking at Reimer before Fleury.. lower cost , stats pretty comparable . and you could probably add a quality backup from free agency as well for the same $ as MAF alone

 

I think people are overrating Reimer.  He has six seasons in the NHL and yet wasn't able to get the starter reins despite playing on a Toronto team that was desperate for a starter goalie.  He was good this season for sure.  But other players on the list have been consistently good and are proven to be able to carry a starter load.  

 

With Reimer you are talking about taking the same kind of risks we took when relying on Ramo to be the starter last season.  Maybe he is good?  Good chance he isn't.  This isn't a kid likely to become the next great starter in the NHL.  I am not sure why we would want to take that risk if we don't have to.  The upside doesn't exist. 

 

I am not saying we should discount him entirely.  But if expansion goes through much better options will be available.

[phoenix66]

 

Fleury and B Bennett for Stajan and Raymond, there is a deal.

works for me.. pretty sure Rutherford gets run out of town ..LOL...  altho , Even Justin looks good in Pittsburgh.. Raymond would probably get 30 goals

[phoenix66]

I think people are overrating Reimer.  He has six seasons in the NHL and yet wasn't able to get the starter reins despite playing on a Toronto team that was desperate for a starter goalie.  He was good this season for sure.  But other players on the list have been consistently good and are proven to be able to carry a starter load.  

 

With Reimer you are talking about taking the same kind of risks we took when relying on Ramo to be the starter last season.  Maybe he is good?  Good chance he isn't.  This isn't a kid likely to become the next great starter in the NHL.  I am not sure why we would want to take that risk if we don't have to.  The upside doesn't exist. 

 

I am not saying we should discount him entirely.  But if expansion goes through much better options will be available.

 

 

I get where you are coming from , in terms of his past workload, its true we don't know if he can do 50-60 games, but I kinda feel he was given a bad rap . they kept bringing in players to try and replace him and nobody ever did.

Ive always argued a degree of our stats were due to bad play in front, well TO had worse d than Us and he put up numbers which we would have loved to see here.

 

Fleury on the other hand has at least 2 of the greatest players on his team and are considered contenders every year .. and he cant handle the pressure of playoffs.. i see his bubble bursting big time here .

Both are risks-- Reimer, if you get him on a short cap friendly deal ,  is easier to save yourself from if it does go sideways. Hes also still in his prime with some of his best years ahead, MAF while i don't deny would give us a major upgrade , i think somehow becomes an Albatross contract before hes done.

 

That being said, I'm convinced if Expansion is confirmed, MAF is exactly who BT goes and gets unless TO outbids us for him.

[Flyerfan52]

Pet Sportsnet, Gilles will not need to be protected in the expansion draft (interpreting the rules). Meanwhile Fleury is mandatory to protect (specifically stated). You can only protect one goalie.

Which means the Penguins absolutely have to trade Fleury. It also means that very few teams will trade for him since he can't be exposed. Waiting is a huge risk since they could run into a situation where injury or poor play prevents moving him,especially if he is now backing up Murray.

Finally, the Penguins aren't the only ones with extra goalies. TSN speculated the goalie market will be "flooded" if the expansion draft happens. Which sounds almost certain of Vegas.

Add all of that together and Fleury should be available cheap. His timeline works well for bringing in Gilles. He is a very good goalie who should remain good for the duration of his contract. The cap hit is manageable.

Fleury makes a lot of sense as a target for the Flames. My guess is at or just prior to the draft. The cost is probably a couple of second round picks (not 35) and a low level prospect.

The only way this won't make sense is if the Flames expect another expansion draft the following year. A year when Gilles may require protection and Fleury will still take up the spot.

Add to that the Pengies have 73.9 invested in 22 players with the only relief in sight being Dupuis (3.75 ) going back to LTIR. With the escalator probably being used the cap projects @ 72.8 letting them squeak but with no room for FAs & little to re-up their depth players like Beau Bennett while using yet another rookie on D. Therefore anything they get without retaining salary should be gold to Pittsburgh.

 

But, I've no real confidence & Fleury so would wait & see what others become available & use MAF as plan B.

Also, with the Pens in a cap jam they'll get antsier to move him as the summer wears on. Instead of a couple of 2nds & a prospect @/prior to the draft) as little as a 3rd & our unwanted prospect (roster space) will look good in a very limited market later. A rare case of patience being rewarded in the hockey world.

[travel_dude]

I like Elliot and I agree with your list.  My problem with Elliot is that I don't think the Blues need to trade him. Elliot was their guy in the playoffs and with another year under contract it makes more sense for them to keep both.  I also don't like that he has one more year under contract because I think that is going to put the Flames in a tough spot in 1-season when it is time to sign him, especially since he will be 32.  

 

In an expansion situation, they have to make a choice.  Elliott is worth more as a proven player.  Allen is their starter-in-waiting.  He will be cheaper for them to re-sign.  He has a longer career ahead of him.  

 

STL is going to need some longer term cost-cutting.  They have a few prospects that could take on the backup role, or just go with a cheap backup.  They have a defensive team that can mitigate the loss of Elliott.  

 

Not sure what the asking price would be, but perhaps we could take Rattie off their hands with Elliott.  Offer a combo of a 2nd, forward prospect, Bollig and a 3rd.  Bollig is the only salary they take back, but would even drop that.  

[kehatch]

I get where you are coming from , in terms of his past workload, its true we don't know if he can do 50-60 games, but I kinda feel he was given a bad rap . they kept bringing in players to try and replace him and nobody ever did.

Ive always argued a degree of our stats were due to bad play in front, well TO had worse d than Us and he put up numbers which we would have loved to see here.

 

Fleury on the other hand has at least 2 of the greatest players on his team and are considered contenders every year .. and he cant handle the pressure of playoffs.. i see his bubble bursting big time here .

Both are risks-- Reimer, if you get him on a short cap friendly deal ,  is easier to save yourself from if it does go sideways. Hes also still in his prime with some of his best years ahead, MAF while i don't deny would give us a major upgrade , i think somehow becomes an Albatross contract before hes done.

 

That being said, I'm convinced if Expansion is confirmed, MAF is exactly who BT goes and gets unless TO outbids us for him.

 

As I said, i haven't discounted Reimer.  But I don't think you can fairly say the risk is the same when you are comparing a proven starter with consistently great performance against a career back-up who has been up and down.  I get that Pittsburgh is a better team but there are plenty of good goalies on bad teams (and vise versa).  

In an expansion situation, they have to make a choice.  Elliott is worth more as a proven player.  Allen is their starter-in-waiting.  He will be cheaper for them to re-sign.  He has a longer career ahead of him.  

 

STL is going to need some longer term cost-cutting.  They have a few prospects that could take on the backup role, or just go with a cheap backup.  They have a defensive team that can mitigate the loss of Elliott.  

 

Not sure what the asking price would be, but perhaps we could take Rattie off their hands with Elliott.  Offer a combo of a 2nd, forward prospect, Bollig and a 3rd.  Bollig is the only salary they take back, but would even drop that.  

 

No they don't.  Elliot is a free agent at the end of the season.  They aren't going to get a tonne for him in trade if expansion happens.  There is zero incentive for them to trade their best goalie until Allen takes the reins.  

[phoenix66]

In an expansion situation, they have to make a choice.  Elliott is worth more as a proven player.  Allen is their starter-in-waiting.  He will be cheaper for them to re-sign.  He has a longer career ahead of him.  

 

STL is going to need some longer term cost-cutting.  They have a few prospects that could take on the backup role, or just go with a cheap backup.  They have a defensive team that can mitigate the loss of Elliott.  

 

Not sure what the asking price would be, but perhaps we could take Rattie off their hands with Elliott.  Offer a combo of a 2nd, forward prospect, Bollig and a 3rd.  Bollig is the only salary they take back, but would even drop that.  

 

 

I was high on Elliot as an option too, but the optics say hes not going anywhere. As a UFA,  he allows them to protect Allen, and if they really want to resign him they can do it in UFA regardless. they dont have to trade, so St Louis would be dealing from a position of strength, making the cost way too high

 

Ive changed my stance on Bishop tho . IF (thats a very big IF) Tampa were to need to rid themselves of salary , then Bishop will be odd man out . Expansion means nothing , as Stevie has already proven he wont trade a star due to UFA if it means weakening his cup potential . But if they have cap issues , a very real possibility then they will deal him .

While I once thought the price would be too high, the fact a) he's injury prone, hes UFA end of season  will drive his price down .. you can likely do it at that time for a 2nd.

If Stevie can manage his cap , then Bishop stays as well

 

Anderson i still maintain isnt being sent anywhere near us.. and if were to try and strike a deal , Anaheim wont back down from wanting our 6 OA

 

I would say our REAL starter option targets for next year are  MAF, Reimer,  or a name that hasnt been mentioned much .. Craig Anderson.. and Bishop if they have to move him 

[MAC331]

works for me.. pretty sure Rutherford gets run out of town ..LOL...  altho , Even Justin looks good in Pittsburgh.. Raymond would probably get 30 goals

PIT will be wanting to lighten the money load in the offseason and Rutherford is always good for a few dumb moves.

[robrob1974]

I think people are overrating Reimer. He has six seasons in the NHL and yet wasn't able to get the starter reins despite playing on a Toronto team that was desperate for a starter goalie. He was good this season for sure. But other players on the list have been consistently good and are proven to be able to carry a starter load.

With Reimer you are talking about taking the same kind of risks we took when relying on Ramo to be the starter last season. Maybe he is good? Good chance he isn't. This isn't a kid likely to become the next great starter in the NHL. I am not sure why we would want to take that risk if we don't have to. The upside doesn't exist.

I am not saying we should discount him entirely. But if expansion goes through much better options will be available.

Apparently Ortio takes/needs a bunch of games to get going. Having Reimer and Ortio would put us back to a goalie tandem splitting games. Would that work. Even though Ortio didn't get wins he gave the team a chance in some of the games.

I like Reimer more than some,,but I think that has to do with how Carlyle talked about him in media than in his play. I tend to like the underdog and Carlyle, well I am not a fan of his belittle tactics in the media... I thought Reimer showed potential.

He seems to have less stamina so a platoon could be what works for him.

If we want Elliotte, maybe we have to wait for UFA.

What has kept Elliotte consistent is that he always has to prove himself. He could be looking for a new opportunity to prove he can be a starter if the Blues continue to place their chips in Allen's hand.

[travel_dude]

I was high on Elliot as an option too, but the optics say hes not going anywhere. As a UFA,  he allows them to protect Allen, and if they really want to resign him they can do it in UFA regardless. they dont have to trade, so St Louis would be dealing from a position of strength, making the cost way too high

 

Ive changed my stance on Bishop tho . IF (thats a very big IF) Tampa were to need to rid themselves of salary , then Bishop will be odd man out . Expansion means nothing , as Stevie has already proven he wont trade a star due to UFA if it means weakening his cup potential . But if they have cap issues , a very real possibility then they will deal him .

While I once thought the price would be too high, the fact a) he's injury prone, hes UFA end of season  will drive his price down .. you can likely do it at that time for a 2nd.

If Stevie can manage his cap , then Bishop stays as well

 

Anderson i still maintain isnt being sent anywhere near us.. and if were to try and strike a deal , Anaheim wont back down from wanting our 6 OA

 

I would say our REAL starter option targets for next year are  MAF, Reimer,  or a name that hasnt been mentioned much .. Craig Anderson.. and Bishop if they have to move him 

 

Anaheim is a team that has an internal cap.  They have to make choices.  Lindholm, Valanen, Rakkel, Pirri, Andersen....They still have to find replacements (or re-sign) for Horcoff, Stewart, Perron, and McGinn.  They have Tokarski as a potential backup if they decide not to re-sign Khudobin.  

 

We can all say that Anaheim doesn't deal within the conference, but the reality is that is where the need is.  Edmonton wants a defender.  Calgary wants a goalie.  They have to make moves.  They had a mediocre start to the season and got punted in the first round.

 

As far as STL goes, it's hard to tell with them.  Elliott got them into the 3rd round, but they have a history of moving goalies after a certain point.  Allen is their goalie of the future.  Can they keep both?  Probably for this year.  

[phoenix66]

Anaheim is a team that has an internal cap.  They have to make choices.  Lindholm, Valanen, Rakkel, Pirri, Andersen....They still have to find replacements (or re-sign) for Horcoff, Stewart, Perron, and McGinn.  They have Tokarski as a potential backup if they decide not to re-sign Khudobin.  

 

We can all say that Anaheim doesn't deal within the conference, but the reality is that is where the need is.  Edmonton wants a defender.  Calgary wants a goalie.  They have to make moves.  They had a mediocre start to the season and got punted in the first round.

 

As far as STL goes, it's hard to tell with them.  Elliott got them into the 3rd round, but they have a history of moving goalies after a certain point.  Allen is their goalie of the future.  Can they keep both?  Probably for this year.  

 

 

not saying its going to be impossible, just very expensive. of all or most of the goalies that will be available, Andersen will have the highest tag .  hes team controlled as an RFA, just entering the prime of his career.

we will be up against teams like Toronto , and likely Carolina in the search for a legitimate #1. Toronto has a late 1st rounder to give up and in the end it will be like Schneider all over again , we woudl need to give up way more than them just to  be equal and even then likely wont win the battle.

 

like i say , i'd love to be proven wrong , i think Anderson is the best fit for us .. just dont see it coming down . Anaheim just has to look next door to see what sending your backup to the enemy can do 

[JTech780]

I am not I understand why people are questioning a goaltender that has been to a cup final and also won a cup for his playoff performance but are okay with Reimer who has made a total of 7 starts in the playoffs.

Isn't Fleury's playoff resume much more preferable to Reimer's lack of resume.

Reimer isn't even on my list of goalies worth acquiring.

With Fleury this team is almost assured of a playoff spot IMO, where as with Reimer we are back to the crapshoot we had last year.

St. Louis has little reason to move Elliot so I doubt we will see him.

Andersen will be pretty expensive, but we should be inquiring.

I still think Varlamov could be a possibility.

[phoenix66]

I am not I understand why people are questioning a goaltender that has been to a cup final and also won a cup for his playoff performance but are okay with Reimer who has made a total of 7 starts in the playoffs.

Isn't Fleury's playoff resume much more preferable to Reimer's lack of resume.

Reimer isn't even on my list of goalies worth acquiring.

With Fleury this team is almost assured of a playoff spot IMO, where as with Reimer we are back to the crapshoot we had last year.

St. Louis has little reason to move Elliot so I doubt we will see him.

Andersen will be pretty expensive, but we should be inquiring.

I still think Varlamov could be a possibility.

 

 

I dont want Anti Niemi either

 

the difference , for me,  is that Reimer has shown he can be a great player on a bad team. And an even better one on a better team.

Yes, Fleury has had flashes, but many of their playoff shortcomings can be attributed to him , hes been the weakest link more times than hero.

 

As i mentioned before, i'l take him , hes a big upgrade over the previous ,   but i think Reimer is more suited to our team.

[JTech780]

I dont want Anti Niemi either

the difference , for me, is that Reimer has shown he can be a great player on a bad team. And an even better one on a better team.

Yes, Fleury has had flashes, but many of their playoff shortcomings can be attributed to him , hes been the weakest link more times than hero.

As i mentioned before, i'l take him , hes a big upgrade over the previous , but i think Reimer is more suited to our team.

I guess we will have to just disagree on that one, I don't see Reimer getting us to the playoffs.

[Flyerfan52]

I dont want Anti Niemi either

 

the difference , for me,  is that Reimer has shown he can be a great player on a bad team. And an even better one on a better team.

Yes, Fleury has had flashes, but many of their playoff shortcomings can be attributed to him , hes been the weakest link more times than hero.

 

As i mentioned before, i'l take him , hes a big upgrade over the previous ,   but i think Reimer is more suited to our team.

I'm not fond of either but would take Reimer if he came with a smaller cap hit.

 

MAF might get you to the playoffs but fades once there. The knock is he fades under pressure (& he'd see even more during the regular season in the west. So that playoff remark is in question as well.

 

Canada hasn't produced top goalies recently so MAF has Olympic Gold playing 0 games.He was the "WTF, 1 hurt & 1 playing bad just in case option".

 

@ 5.75 x 3 he's a big hit. Forget what I said about trading a 3rd & unwanted contract. If the Pens want to get rid of him for cap reasons (& that 5.75 is a lot for a backup while Murray goes RFA next year) they get the full brunt of the Raymond contract for a year while if Fleury doesn't work out this year we can expose him in the draft hoping LV sees his regular seasons as worth while to keep them up there with the 25th team as they ice a team of 7th forwards & 4th Ds backed by (well) backups.

[jjgallow]

Minor league signing of a goalie I have never heard of. Pretty common depth move that all teams do. Not much here to be excited about one way or the other.

 

Well, that's the thing....it's a Two-way signing (not just an AHL contract).   You only get 50 of those.  I Have to assume there are hopes.

 

For what it is, the Flames Should by rights see some potential in him to be more then we all do.  Let's hope they're right, and we're wrong.  Which would ....be... a deviation from their track record for goalies.

[phoenix66]

I'm not fond of either but would take Reimer if he came with a smaller cap hit.

 

MAF might get you to the playoffs but fades once there. The knock is he fades under pressure (& he'd see even more during the regular season in the west. So that playoff remark is in question as well.

 

Canada hasn't produced top goalies recently so MAF has Olympic Gold playing 0 games.He was the "WTF, 1 hurt & 1 playing bad just in case option".

 

@ 5.75 x 3 he's a big hit. Forget what I said about trading a 3rd & unwanted contract. If the Pens want to get rid of him for cap reasons (& that 5.75 is a lot for a backup while Murray goes RFA next year) they get the full brunt of the Raymond contract for a year while if Fleury doesn't work out this year we can expose him in the draft hoping LV sees his regular seasons as worth while to keep them up there with the 25th team as they ice a team of 7th forwards & 4th Ds backed by (well) backups.

 

 

Oh totally .. the caveat on Reimer is that we get him on a short term Show Me contract and that he values the chance to prove hes a starter over term right now, And because his options will be limited we're his best option to do that 

 

And thats my other fear on Fleury , we cant expose him to the draft , due to his NMC.. so if he does tank, we're stuck with that contract ..

Well, that's the thing....it's a Two-way signing (not just an AHL contract).   You only get 50 of those.  I Have to assume there are hopes.

 

For what it is, the Flames Should by rights see some potential in him to be more then we all do.  Let's hope they're right, and we're wrong.  Which would ....be... a deviation from their track record for goalies.

exactly .. somebody sees something.. like i said earlier, they likely came across him watching Pribyl, and it makes more sense to put some potential into the pipe instead of filler that you have no intention of ever seeing on the big team.

He doesnt cut it,   next......  but alternately if he does, then there are worse problems to have than an awesome goalie stuck down your depth chart

[kehatch]

Well, that's the thing....it's a Two-way signing (not just an AHL contract). You only get 50 of those. I Have to assume there are hopes.

For what it is, the Flames Should by rights see some potential in him to be more then we all do. Let's hope they're right, and we're wrong. Which would ....be... a deviation from their track record for goalies.

It's a one year deal and we aren't in danger of running out of contracts. You will probably see more NHL deals thrown out by the Flames to get talent on the AHL team.

I am not saying the Flames aren't curious about his upside. But getting a good (not great) player in a secondary league doesn't scream future NHL upside.

[Flyerfan52]

Oh totally .. the caveat on Reimer is that we get him on a short term Show Me contract and that he values the chance to prove hes a starter over term right now, And because his options will be limited we're his best option to do that 

 

And thats my other fear on Fleury , we cant expose him to the draft , due to his NMC.. so if he does tank, we're stuck with that contract ..

I read up on that today & the NMC only covers waivers & demotions. He also has to submit a list of 18 teams acceptable to being traded to. It's even mentioned in THN under Rumor Roundup.