Goaltending

[jjgallow]

 

We needed one last season...   But that didn't happen...  

 

 

Unfortunately we need a goalie now.

 

 

 

There is a difference between needing a goalie, and needing a Great goalie.

 

We needed a great goalie, since 2007, imho.   Yeah, I said it.   That, imho, is when Kipper peaked.  Never popular on here, but his seasons were inconsistent since then.  Especially in the playoffs.

 

Of those years, some we've needed a great goalie more than others.

 

I see no particular reason, to be honest, why next season is one of those years we need a great goalie.

 

But that time will come again.

[kehatch]

There is a difference between needing a goalie, and needing a Great goalie.

We needed a great goalie, since 2007, imho. Yeah, I said it. That, imho, is when Kipper peaked. Never popular on here, but his seasons were inconsistent since then. Especially in the playoffs.

Of those years, some we've needed a great goalie more than others.

I see no particular reason, to be honest, why next season is one of those years we need a great goalie.

But that time will come again.

Sure we need a great goalie at some point. But that doesn't change the fact we need a goalie now for next season. Also, every season at least one goalie comes out of nowhere and proves to be a top goalie. There isn't any reason you can't get one in trade.

[robrob1974]

Kipper had teams that watched the play in the D zone. There were a lot of brain farts happening. Anyway...

[phoenix66]

There is a difference between needing a goalie, and needing a Great goalie.

 

We needed a great goalie, since 2007, imho.   Yeah, I said it.   That, imho, is when Kipper peaked.  Never popular on here, but his seasons were inconsistent since then.  Especially in the playoffs.

 

Of those years, some we've needed a great goalie more than others.

 

I see no particular reason, to be honest, why next season is one of those years we need a great goalie.

 

But that time will come again.

I think to be honest, Kipper is a great example of how even a great goalie cant save you.

I think Ryan Miller is/was a great goalie...Buffalo sure didnt benefit, and St Louis did nothing in the playoffs.

[MAC331]

I think to be honest, Kipper is a great example of how even a great goalie cant save you.

I think Ryan Miller is/was a great goalie...Buffalo sure didnt benefit, and St Louis did nothing in the playoffs.

It's a team game and a good goalie is only part of the puzzle.

[cross16]

So far the goalies left in the play-offs are Matt Murray, Andrei Vaslilevsky, Martin Jones and Brian Elliott. Which one of those is great? 

 

I don't think you need a great goalie or a top 10 goalie. I think Crawford is right on the cusp of being a top 10 goalies, and the only one of that list I think might be a top 10 goalies is Murray and one of those 4 is going to win a cup. I don't think you need a top tier goalie anymore and with the cap I would actually argument it's detrimental to put so much money in 1 position in order to get that goalie. 

 

That is why i don't understand this logic that the Flames have to aim so high on a goalie or settle for someone like Ramo. I think you need a good (which I would qualify as better than average) goalie in order to have a contending team and I think there are plenty of recent example of exactly that. It you are doing your job right, it should not be that difficult to find a good goalie. 

[phoenix66]

It's a team game and a good goalie is only part of the puzzle.

Thats exactly my point, that st louis team was contender material.

I think when the dust settles we may find the end answer to be anti climactic. I fully expect that Ramo and Ortio will both be back, with a legitimate #1 capable body added to the mix (like a Talbot or a Jones type) and that body will either take the top spot from Ramo or tandem with Otio until Ramo is healthy.

I dont think we bring in the savior everybody (myself included) was envisioning.

I think the true window for other teams goalie panic is starting at next yesrs trade deadline. I could easily be wrong, but just my feeling

[robrob1974]

I think we get someone to fill in for a few years. Like you just said Phoenix, I am keeping my expectations low because we can't really afford a big money guy right now anyway.

I think we sign one to 4.5m?

[phoenix66]

I think we get someone to fill in for a few years. Like you just said Phoenix, I am keeping my expectations low because we can't really afford a big money guy right now anyway.

I think we sign one to 4.5m?

I dont think even that. I could see Ramo signing a lesser deal due to his season and injury, and a guy like Jhonas Enroth getting signed for 2- 2.5

He made 1.25 in LA barely playing behind Quick. He wants to play. I wouldnt be upset with him. Buffalo only traded him cuz he was winning

[travel_dude]

Thats exactly my point, that st louis team was contender material.

I think when the dust settles we may find the end answer to be anti climactic. I fully expect that Ramo and Ortio will both be back, with a legitimate #1 capable body added to the mix (like a Talbot or a Jones type) and that body will either take the top spot from Ramo or tandem with Otio until Ramo is healthy.

I dont think we bring in the savior everybody (myself included) was envisioning.

I think the true window for other teams goalie panic is starting at next yesrs trade deadline. I could easily be wrong, but just my feeling

 

Ramo isn't even going to be ready for October.  

 

I would be fine with signing Reimer on the cheap, for 2-3 years.  His even strength SA% is well above Ramo's.  Attempt to sign Enroth to the backup spot at about $1.5m.  If not, bring back Ortio to the backup spot.

 

This is my plan b.  I think there may be better options, but they may be out of reach due to trade demands. 

[zima]

I'm just hoping Talbots success doesn't flow over to the new season that's all we need is a Oiler team with a top 4 pick again and good goal tending. They still lack in the back end but perhaps they will trade a couple of there high first rounder's from seasons past just to get better in the back, hopefully not. I did a read from Haynes I will post link here it is interesting but a slim chance check it out.

 

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/05/diamond-heist-can-bandit-brad-steal.html

[travel_dude]

I'm just hoping Talbots success doesn't flow over to the new season that's all we need is a Oiler team with a top 4 pick again and good goal tending. They still lack in the back end but perhaps they will trade a couple of there high first rounder's from seasons past just to get better in the back, hopefully not. I did a read from Haynes I will post link here it is interesting but a slim chance check it out.

 

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2016/05/diamond-heist-can-bandit-brad-steal.html

 

I think the Oiler problem run deeper than just a good d-man.  They don't have many forwards beyond 1st overalls that you build a team with.  Even with crappy goaltending, they were no match for us.  They have almost no goal scoring on defense.

[robrob1974]

I think the Oiler problem run deeper than just a good d-man. They don't have many forwards beyond 1st overalls that you build a team with. Even with crappy goaltending, they were no match for us. They have almost no goal scoring on defense.

This is why I think they can trade down. Trade down for a good bottom 6 forward, get a good D in the draft at 7 or 8th overall. They have enough impact forwards up front but not enough depth.

I think the oilers are going to be scary good in two years.

I don't want them to be

[phoenix66]

Ramo isn't even going to be ready for October.  

 

I would be fine with signing Reimer on the cheap, for 2-3 years.  His even strength SA% is well above Ramo's.  Attempt to sign Enroth to the backup spot at about $1.5m.  If not, bring back Ortio to the backup spot.

 

This is my plan b.  I think there may be better options, but they may be out of reach due to trade demands. 

Thats why I accounted for it when i said " will either take the top spot from Ramo or tandem with Ortio until Ramo is healthy."

[travel_dude]

This is why I think they can trade down. Trade down for a good bottom 6 forward, get a good D in the draft at 7 or 8th overall. They have enough impact forwards up front but not enough depth.

I think the oilers are going to be scary good in two years.

I don't want them to be

 

Well I wouldn't hold your breath.  Picking up one impact forward isn't going to do much.  They have an AHL defense right now, with one or two decent 2nd pairing guys.  They don't score from the blueline.  They have a mess after the top players.  If they don't trade any of the big 3, they have the following:

 

McDavid

Hall

Draisaitl

Nuge

Eberle

Pouliot

 

A few depth guys like Hendricks, Maroon and Kassian.  That gives them two scoring lines and a 4th line.  Oh yes, they have "The Drake".  Not much depth and not really scary.  If they solve the defense by trading Hall and/or Nuge & Eberle, they have more problems.  Cue Rebuild 7.0

[cross16]

The success on the Oilers is going to depend completely on the development of that blueline. If Nurse can become the top pairing guy he projects as and Klefboom can stay healthy they have the makings of a solid core. If those 2 things don't happens, they are in big trouble, unless they pull someone like a Brodie out of the draft and I don't see that in their system right now. 

 

I don't think they have the assets to get a top pairing dman, not without creating other holes. To get a top pairing dman you are trading Hall, McDavid or a package including Draistil and I'm not sure the OIlers entertain that. Trading the likes of RNH or Eberle will get you a decent dman but not a top pairing one and trading Hall opens up a huge hole down your left side so i would question if that makes you better.

 

The Oilers still have alot of work to do and they will need to great creativity and much better at drafting before they become scary. You can't win with the type of blueline they have right now in Edmonton. 

[Redslinger]

It's not just the pedigree of the defensemen in Edmonton that's a problem.  It's also that many of their forwards have either never been taught how to properly support the D or the behavior hasn't been enforced properly.  Even if they move a guy like RNH (who happens to be one of their better defensive forwards) for a defenseman or two the team culture is still suffering.  There are guys like Hall and Eberle (in particular) who get a tonne of ice time that are either clueless or careless in their own zone.

 

But I digress...

 

At the moment, Elliott appears to be a real possibility for the Flames.  I don't know what Hitchcock was thinking but there's a chance he may have damaged that relationship permanently.  He would be a HUGE upgrade in net.  Also, I don't see anything wrong with having Ortio as a backup either especially if you have a real #1 ahead of him.

[travel_dude]

The success on the Oilers is going to depend completely on the development of that blueline. If Nurse can become the top pairing guy he projects as and Klefboom can stay healthy they have the makings of a solid core. If those 2 things don't happens, they are in big trouble, unless they pull someone like a Brodie out of the draft and I don't see that in their system right now. 

 

I don't think they have the assets to get a top pairing dman, not without creating other holes. To get a top pairing dman you are trading Hall, McDavid or a package including Draistil and I'm not sure the OIlers entertain that. Trading the likes of RNH or Eberle will get you a decent dman but not a top pairing one and trading Hall opens up a huge hole down your left side so i would question if that makes you better.

 

The Oilers still have alot of work to do and they will need to great creativity and much better at drafting before they become scary. You can't win with the type of blueline they have right now in Edmonton. 

 

I wonder if they screwed up Nurse by bringing him up and overplaying him.  I thought he was better than he showed.  He doesn't seem to have the offensive instinct needed to work in the NHL.  His defensive side is a mess.  He could get there, but need to get back to basics on the farm.  Just my opinion of him from watching Oiler games (oooh, just threw up in my mouth).  

 

I agree that Nuge or Eberle isn't enough to trade to get you that big piece.  Nuge didn't land Jones.  Eberle is a one-dimensional player that saved his season playing with McDavid.  Add the 4th and you might get something a lot better.  But, then you lose a "core" player plus a top prospect that they don't have any of.

 

Talbot has been great in stretches.  It's entirely possible to see a Dubie-Oiler season this year from him though.  He was mediocre early in the season.  He won't be playing behind Team Canada.

 

A full season from McDavid is probably the best they can hope for this year.  

[robrob1974]

Maybe they trade both RNH and Eberle together to get that guy. Those two might be the ones who definitely need a change of scenery. But Yakupov especially, but he might be a good gamble to a team who can trade them a depth forward and maybe a middle round pick, IF they value his former 1st OA status.

[robrob1974]

So who is going to be available if the expansion draft happens?

 

So my guess is:

 

Allen or Elliott

Fleury or Murray

Bishop or Vasilevsky?

 

I think that it will be Bishop and Fleury on the trading block and I don't know who the Blues prefer, Allen or Elliott?

[LouCifer]

So who is going to be available if the expansion draft happens?

 

So my guess is:

 

Allen or Elliott

Fleury or Murray

Bishop or Vasilevsky?

 

I think that it will be Bishop and Fleury on the trading block and I don't know who the Blues prefer, Allen or Elliott?

 

My guess:

 

St. Louis - Allen is the more likely to become available out of the 2 if they choose to let one go

- I think they keep Elliott because they still have a Stanley Cup window of opportunity, and Elliott > Allen in the eyes of St. Louis at this point (they preferred Elliott over Allen in these playoffs, and I think that's indicative)

 

Penguins - Fleury is the more likely to become available out of the 2, as much as that upsets me

- Even though the GM said Fleury isn't going anywhere in a recent interview, he couldn't have answered that question any other way given that his team is battling for a Cup right now and they may need to lean on Fleury too to realize it. You couldn't possibly drop a bomb like that on one of your goalies when you're challenging for a cup.

 

Tampa Bay - this one is tougher to predict for me.

1. I see this as the most likely scenario *if* Stamkos signs with another team this summer. They keep both - they have a stanley cup window open right now, 2 solid goalies to back them up, and Stamkos' salary coming off the books. Even with expansion, Bishop and Vasilevskiy's contracts both end after next season in which they'll be UFA and RFA respectively. So Bishop doesn't need to take up a protected spot but can be re-signed, and Vasi can be protected. No rush or need to move either goalie.

2. If Stamkos re-signs, Bishop will be more likely on the trading block out of the 2, or they could still keep him and not re-sign him as a UFA due to his cap hit being high, as Vasilevskiy will be the cheaper option. I don't see Bishop taking much of a discount from what he's currently making, especially with his regular season and playoff performances.

3. (Most unlikely imho) If Tampa feels Bishop is their guy, and that Vasi might be sent an offer-sheet, or if he's unhappy in his backup role, or if they feel that their goalie prospect pool is good, Vasi could be moved out.

[cccsberg]

So who is going to be available if the expansion draft happens?

 

So my guess is:

 

Allen or Elliott

Fleury or Murray

Bishop or Vasilevsky?

 

I think that it will be Bishop and Fleury on the trading block and I don't know who the Blues prefer, Allen or Elliott?

You forgot:

 

Andersson or Gibson

Halak or Greiss

[cccsberg]

My guess:

 

St. Louis - Allen is the more likely to become available out of the 2 if they choose to let one go

- I think they keep Elliott because they still have a Stanley Cup window of opportunity, and Elliott > Allen in the eyes of St. Louis at this point (they preferred Elliott over Allen in these playoffs, and I think that's indicative)

 

Penguins - Fleury is the more likely to become available out of the 2, as much as that upsets me

- Even though the GM said Fleury isn't going anywhere in a recent interview, he couldn't have answered that question any other way given that his team is battling for a Cup right now and they may need to lean on Fleury too to realize it. You couldn't possibly drop a bomb like that on one of your goalies when you're challenging for a cup.

 

Tampa Bay - this one is tougher to predict for me.

1. I see this as the most likely scenario *if* Stamkos signs with another team this summer. They keep both - they have a stanley cup window open right now, 2 solid goalies to back them up, and Stamkos' salary coming off the books. Even with expansion, Bishop and Vasilevskiy's contracts both end after next season in which they'll be UFA and RFA respectively. So Bishop doesn't need to take up a protected spot but can be re-signed, and Vasi can be protected. No rush or need to move either goalie.

2. If Stamkos re-signs, Bishop will be more likely on the trading block out of the 2, or they could still keep him and not re-sign him as a UFA due to his cap hit being high, as Vasilevskiy will be the cheaper option. I don't see Bishop taking much of a discount from what he's currently making, especially with his regular season and playoff performances.

3. (Most unlikely imho) If Tampa feels Bishop is their guy, and that Vasi might be sent an offer-sheet, or if he's unhappy in his backup role, or if they feel that their goalie prospect pool is good, Vasi could be moved out.

Fleury has a NMC so unless he agrees to a trade he must be protected and Murray will be traded.

 

Bishop is UFA but the expansion draft purportedly would be before July 1 so he will be available.  An expansion team would be a fool not to pick him up and try to sign him or flip him to another team.  It is doubtful TBL would let him walk for nothing or give him up to the expansion draft....   But then again, that's what they are doing with Stamkos, so who knows?

[phoenix66]

So who is going to be available if the expansion draft happens?

 

So my guess is:

 

Allen or Elliott

Fleury or Murray

Bishop or Vasilevsky?

 

I think that it will be Bishop and Fleury on the trading block and I don't know who the Blues prefer, Allen or Elliott?

As far as expansion draft goes,

Allen will be protected as he will be RFA, Elliot will be UFA

Fleury will be protected due to his NMC

Vasilevsky will be protected , as Bishop will be UFA

As far as trades?

Elliot would get traded over Allen

Fleury will get moved before Murray

Tampa is a coin toss..theyve already shown they are willing to let a star walk if it means possibky winning a cup, and as goid as vasilevsy has played, if Bishop were in net theyd have beaten the Pens by now. I think depending on their playoffs they ride both goalies right thru the end of next season. I dont believe either gets traded. If for some reason they HAVE to, it would be Vasilevsky

[robrob1974]

As far as expansion draft goes,

Allen will be protected as he will be RFA, Elliot will be UFA

Fleury will be protected due to his NMC

Vasilevsky will be protected , as Bishop will be UFA

As far as trades?

Elliot would get traded over Allen

Fleury will get moved before Murray

Tampa is a coin toss..theyve already shown they are willing to let a star walk if it means possibky winning a cup, and as goid as vasilevsy has played, if Bishop were in net theyd have beaten the Pens by now. I think depending on their playoffs they ride both goalies right thru the end of next season. I dont believe either gets traded. If for some reason they HAVE to, it would be Vasilevsky

But Allen has been pro long enough that the blues have to make a choice to protect one of them. It does not matter about RFA status, it only matters whether they have 2 seasons of pro experience.