Goaltending

[JTech780]

OK but I have a hard time seeing the Avs trade him.

They have more reasons to trade him than Tampa or Pittsburgh have to trade Vasilevsky or Murray.

Which is about 2 mil more than we can afford for a goaltender this coming season...

If Treliving can't clear $2m off this roster to make room for a quality goaltender than he probably doesn't belong in the GM's chair.

[DirtyDeeds]

They have more reasons to trade him than Tampa or Pittsburgh have to trade Vasilevsky or Murray.

If Treliving can't clear $2m off this roster to make room for a quality goaltender than he probably doesn't belong in the GM's chair.

I think we have the money now for a good #1 goaltender just from the goaltender budget of Ramo and Hiller. If we find one and really want them,  the bucks are there. However most everyone here is taking away all the goaltenders budget and spending it on Monahan and JH then coming back and saying we can't afford a goaltender over $(x). 

 

If they find a goalie(Bishop just an example) and pay him a decent wage and put some okay money on a backup we still have some left over for helping out the JH and Monahan raises.

 

None of the present goalies have to be re-signed. None of them unless we want.

[MAC331]

They have more reasons to trade him than Tampa or Pittsburgh have to trade Vasilevsky or Murray.

If Treliving can't clear $2m off this roster to make room for a quality goaltender than he probably doesn't belong in the GM's chair.

Doesn't COL need a solid goaltender ? I don't see much depth or anyone to step in. I know you mentioned they have a few RFA's to sign but does that always come at the cost of your goaltender ? I don't think it would be a smart move to trade Varlamov on their part.

[cross16]

Why is Varlamov's name being tossed around so much ? he is signed for big bucks for about 4 more years.

If we were to fall out of 1 thru 5 in the draft, would you use your 1st to try and get someone like Vasilevskiy TB or Murray PIT ?

Our biggest need is having two quality goaltenders competing to be top dog.

 

Nope not a chance. The only way I would ever give up a top 10 pick for a goalie is if the draft wasn't very good, or you were getting a Corey Schneider type return. I'm not giving up a top 10 pick in a very good top 10 for goalies who have yet to show me they can start at the NHL level. That's not a good use of the asset IMO. 

 

Doesn't COL need a solid goaltender ? I don't see much depth or anyone to step in. I know you mentioned they have a few RFA's to sign but does that always come at the cost of your goaltender ? I don't think it would be a smart move to trade Varlamov on their part.

 

They have Calvin Pickard who is playing very well right now and is a former 2nd round pick. They have him and Berra who has played decent at times this year. I'm not saying they would move Varlamov but if they want to keep some of their RFAs its really the only way they can. They likely have to consider trading 1 of Varlamov, Duchene, Landeskogg of Iginla to clear out room to keep Mackinnon and Barrie. I would trade Varlamov before I traded Duchene or Landeskog and I don't think moving Iginla is going to be easy. 

[MAC331]

Nope not a chance. The only way I would ever give up a top 10 pick for a goalie is if the draft wasn't very good, or you were getting a Corey Schneider type return. I'm not giving up a top 10 pick in a very good top 10 for goalies who have yet to show me they can start at the NHL level. That's not a good use of the asset IMO. 

 

 

They have Calvin Pickard who is playing very well right now and is a former 2nd round pick. They have him and Berra who has played decent at times this year. I'm not saying they would move Varlamov but if they want to keep some of their RFAs its really the only way they can. They likely have to consider trading 1 of Varlamov, Duchene, Landeskogg of Iginla to clear out room to keep Mackinnon and Barrie. I would trade Varlamov before I traded Duchene or Landeskog and I don't think moving Iginla is going to be easy. 

It should be interesting to see how they handle the situation as there may be a lesson in this for our own BT.

[phoenix66]

I think we have the money now for a good #1 goaltender just from the goaltender budget of Ramo and Hiller. If we find one and really want them, the bucks are there. However most everyone here is taking away all the goaltenders budget and spending it on Monahan and JH then coming back and saying we can't afford a goaltender over $(x).

If they find a goalie(Bishop just an example) and pay him a decent wage and put some okay money on a backup we still have some left over for helping out the JH and Monahan raises.

None of the present goalies have to be re-signed. None of them unless we want.

Check the earlier post, it works out to 3-4m for a starter before moving out contracts like Widemwn

[cross16]

Back to current goaltending, I think next game is a great opporutnity to start Backstrom. Jets are not very good and i havn't liked Ortio's last 2 games. Nothing against him beauses its not like he has been Bad, he just hasn't been very good and I think its important to remember he really hasn't played a starters level workload all year. Sit him and then go right back to him.

 

I will say this, even though I didn't think he was very good last night he at least made some saves at the end to keep it from being a tie game. Thats more than you can say about some other Flames goalies this year. 

 

Backstrom - Jets

Ortio - Avs

Ortio - Habs

Hiller - Leafs (I think he needs at least another starter so why not give him the worst team in the league) If not, then go Backstrom.

[darth_henning]

Ortio has had two sub 0.900 games. 

 

I don't really blame him against the Blues as they're a top team in the league, and the score WAS 7-4 so it was a bit of river hockey going on, and he did make the key saves towards the end to keep it from being a more ridiculous score. 

 

That said, his play hasn't been as good as it was the few games before, so give him a game off and lets see how he does after a night away. 

 

He has had I think 8 straight starts, so he is due a rest anyway. 

[phoenix66]

Ortio has had two sub 0.900 games.

I don't really blame him against the Blues as they're a top team in the league, and the score WAS 7-4 so it was a bit of river hockey going on, and he did make the key saves towards the end to keep it from being a more ridiculous score.

That said, his play hasn't been as good as it was the few games before, so give him a game off and lets see how he does after a night away.

He has had I think 8 straight starts, so he is due a rest anyway.

I agree he's just not used to the workload. Around the 5 game mark is when he starts to get a little sloppy. So to break it up a bit so he refreshes is a good thing for him and his development.

As for Backstrom,I agree with the above but I'm also hoping the game in Minnesota is on that list.you know he'd be motivated for that one:)

[MAC331]

Ortio has had two sub 0.900 games. 

 

I don't really blame him against the Blues as they're a top team in the league, and the score WAS 7-4 so it was a bit of river hockey going on, and he did make the key saves towards the end to keep it from being a more ridiculous score. 

 

That said, his play hasn't been as good as it was the few games before, so give him a game off and lets see how he does after a night away. 

 

He has had I think 8 straight starts, so he is due a rest anyway. 

I agree he didn't look good on about 3 of those goals. You know what bothers me about butterfly style goalies, they go down way to much to early. What is Ortio 6'2" ? are you not suppose to make yourself as large as possible on perimeter shots and protect the top part of the goal. Way to many goals over his shoulders for a good sized goalie. I think the butterfly style is great when the action gets closer in around the net. He needs to use both styles effectively.

[travel_dude]

I agree he didn't look good on about 3 of those goals. You know what bothers me about butterfly style goalies, they go down way to much to early. What is Ortio 6'2" ? are you not suppose to make yourself as large as possible on perimeter shots and protect the top part of the goal. Way to many goals over his shoulders for a good sized goalie. I think the butterfly style is great when the action gets closer in around the net. He needs to use both styles effectively.

 

Ortio is 6'1" and 190.  Pretty small compared to some of the bigger guys.  

 

Bishop, Smith, and Andersen are three huge guys.  Varly and Hutch are fairly big too.  The first 3 guys listed cover the net pretty well.  That is what I would prefer.  Smaller goalies have to be really athletic, and seem to get injured a lot.  We will eventually have Gillies, so I don't want to go small now.

[MAC331]

Ortio is 6'1" and 190.  Pretty small compared to some of the bigger guys.  

 

Bishop, Smith, and Andersen are three huge guys.  Varly and Hutch are fairly big too.  The first 3 guys listed cover the net pretty well.  That is what I would prefer.  Smaller goalies have to be really athletic, and seem to get injured a lot.  We will eventually have Gillies, so I don't want to go small now.

I will take agility and quickness over pure size. I think Ortio needs to adjust his style somewhat but not abandon the butterfly entirely.

The other quality I look for is anticipation on the flow of the play or shot to be taken. Kipper was great at this.

[travel_dude]

I will take agility and quickness over pure size. I think Ortio needs to adjust his style somewhat but not abandon the butterfly entirely.

The other quality I look for is anticipation on the flow of the play or shot to be taken. Kipper was great at this.

 

I have watched the first three play very effectively.  Kipper was a god in his day, but often had mediocre seasons mixed in.  

 

I don't want another Hiller that stays on his knees deep in the net.  Give me a bigger guy that fills the upper part of the net, but is big enough to cover it if he goes into the butterfly.  Hiller, Ramo and Ortio all get beat up high.  Ortio is learning, so I give him some leeway.  But only as a backup option.  

 

The other thing to note is that smaller goalies get run more.  The league does a poor job of protecting goalies in that manner.  Hiller and Ramo were both injured by an attacking player.  You could say that the D-man knocked the player into the goalie, but I would rather see the attacking player taken off by a trainer.

[kehatch]

Since his most recent recall Ortio has went 3-5-2, .904, 2.60. Those aren't good numbers. Keep in mind that the Flames have been short on D over that time. But they have also averaged 27 shots on net per game so it isn't like they have been terrible defensively. I can't think of many games where he was hung out to dry defensively.

He should get another 10 games or so to finish the season. But unless his team collapses in front of him I want those numbers to improve. Otherwise I am at least testing the waters this summer for an upgrade before signing him to an extension.

That said he kept them at 2 goals against in 6 of his 9 starts. So I am hoping the last couple of games are just a blip and he will improve for the last 10.

[darth_henning]

 

Since his most recent recall Ortio has went 3-5-2, .904, 2.60. Those aren't good numbers. Keep in mind that the Flames have been short on D over that time. But they have also averaged 27 shots on net per game so it isn't like they have been terrible defensively. I can't think of many games where he was hung out to dry defensively.

He should get another 10 games or so to finish the season. But unless his team collapses in front of him I want those numbers to improve. Otherwise I am at least testing the waters this summer for an upgrade before signing him to an extension.

That said he kept them at 2 goals against in 6 of his 9 starts. So I am hoping the last couple of games are just a blip and he will improve for the last 10.

 

I'd argue that the Ottawa game's third period was a full team breakdown. Take that out, his numbers still aren't great but they aren't as bad. 

 

(specifically 0.917, 2.50 GAA)

 

With that, his numbers aren't fantastic, but they aren't terrible. 

 

Ottawa was a team breakdown. 

Blues was 7-4 river hockey. 

 

Yes, we have to factor those in, but I'd hardly call either of those typical. Assuming that those don't recur in the next 10 his numbers will definitely improve.

[cross16]

I think Ortio has earned a qualifying offer but that is. Unless his plays dives off a cliff in the last 10 games or so I've seen enough to warrant at least a qualifying offer but i'm not giving him term and i'm not giving him a raise either I don't think his play has warranted either. 

 

Ottawa was a bit of a team breakdown, but it was also some very poor goaltending on Ortio's part and Ortio (plus 1 bad bounce) was the only reason the game was close last night. Flames were the better team but IMO 3 of he goals he let in were weak. 

 

He has been ok and earned his qualifying offer but I woudlnt' pencil him into an NHL job yet. I agree with Kehatch his play needs to improve for that to happen. 

[darth_henning]

I think Ortio has earned a qualifying offer but that is. Unless his plays dives off a cliff in the last 10 games or so I've seen enough to warrant at least a qualifying offer but i'm not giving him term and i'm not giving him a raise either I don't think his play has warranted either. 

 

Ottawa was a bit of a team breakdown, but it was also some very poor goaltending on Ortio's part and Ortio (plus 1 bad bounce) was the only reason the game was close last night. Flames were the better team but IMO 3 of he goals he let in were weak. 

 

He has been ok and earned his qualifying offer but I woudlnt' pencil him into an NHL job yet. I agree with Kehatch his play needs to improve for that to happen. 

 

Either we're going to have to give him term or a small raise (1 mil or less though) to keep him. 

 

I'd rather spend a couple hundred K more than give him term. 800K-1mil for 1 year would be perfectly acceptable. Doesn't break our bank, and doesn't tie us to him if he can't keep it up. 

 

 

One goal was definitely on him. Two were stopable, but got him based on his play style. However, he made a lot of important saves as well that not every goalie would so I'd argue it balances out. Not a good game, no argument, but not as horrible as you make it sound. 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, he didn't play well in the 3rd in Ottawa, but honestly none of those three goals should have even got to him had the team been playing properly, so I think the farest thing to do is drop that outlier. 

 

That still elaves two weak games. The question is whether those continue to be the minority of games. 

[jjgallow]

I think Ortio has earned a qualifying offer but that is. Unless his plays dives off a cliff in the last 10 games or so I've seen enough to warrant at least a qualifying offer but i'm not giving him term and i'm not giving him a raise either I don't think his play has warranted either. 

 

Ottawa was a bit of a team breakdown, but it was also some very poor goaltending on Ortio's part and Ortio (plus 1 bad bounce) was the only reason the game was close last night. Flames were the better team but IMO 3 of he goals he let in were weak. 

 

He has been ok and earned his qualifying offer but I woudlnt' pencil him into an NHL job yet. I agree with Kehatch his play needs to improve for that to happen. 

 

At this point in time, I would actually agree with this assessment.

 

Only two additional thoughts:

 

1.

You have to re-assess after the season is complete.   Good, or bad.    A lot of talk on here suggests it's irrelevant.

       I disagree, in both directions.

                   Moving forward:

                              My guess is that he would need .930 or higher to seriously alter the Flame's acquisition plans.

                                        My guess is, if that happened, a lot of opinions on here would change as well.

                              Likewise, below .900 at season end, and I'm not sure he gets an extension.

 

 

2.    

 there's more to this than goaltending.  The Flames Need to address defense issues as well.   Their shots against are...ok.  Not good enough, but ok.  But we are seeing some concerning defensive lapses.   As well, our top defenceman is exiting his prime.

[darth_henning]

At this point in time, I would actually agree with this assessment.

 

Only two additional thoughts:

 

1.

You have to re-assess after the season is complete.   Good, or bad.    A lot of talk on here suggests it's irrelevant.

       I disagree, in both directions.

                   Moving forward:

                              My guess is that he would need .930 or higher to seriously alter the Flame's acquisition plans.

                                        My guess is, if that happened, a lot of opinions on here would change as well.

                              Likewise, below .900 at season end, and I'm not sure he gets an extension.

 

 

2.    

 there's more to this than goaltending.  The Flames Need to address defense issues as well.   Their shots against are...ok.  Not good enough, but ok.  But we are seeing some concerning defensive lapses.   As well, our top defenceman is exiting his prime.

 

1) Probably true. Given he's 0.904 since call-up, I think he's looking at an extention and "show me" contract. Though I debate the price if we're keeping it to one year. 

 

If he drops under 0.900 we need better options. 

 

I can't see him cracking 0.930 any way this season.

 

2) seems to already be happening. 

[cross16]

Either we're going to have to give him term or a small raise (1 mil or less though) to keep him. 

 

I'd rather spend a couple hundred K more than give him term. 800K-1mil for 1 year would be perfectly acceptable. Doesn't break our bank, and doesn't tie us to him if he can't keep it up. 

 

 

One goal was definitely on him. Two were stopable, but got him based on his play style. However, he made a lot of important saves as well that not every goalie would so I'd argue it balances out. Not a good game, no argument, but not as horrible as you make it sound. 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, he didn't play well in the 3rd in Ottawa, but honestly none of those three goals should have even got to him had the team been playing properly, so I think the farest thing to do is drop that outlier. 

 

That still elaves two weak games. The question is whether those continue to be the minority of games. 

 

Why? A qualifying offer has a built in raise in it and I see no reason why he should get more than his qualifying offer. The only leverage he has it to try and get a deal in Europe and no offence to him but if thats his choice so be it. I'm find keeping him in the organization and i'm fine continuing to try and see if he can play in the NHL level but if he is after money then he is going to need to go to Europe becuaes I don't see anyone in the NHL giving him $. He could go to arbitration (I think he has rights, but someone correct me if i'm wrong) but I think he's got a pretty poor case. 

 

So its qualifying offer or nothing IMO which is 630K. I just don't see how he can justify getting a raise. 

 

The upshall goal was weak (shouldn't get beat over your shoulder short side), The Shattenkirk goal he wound up on his butt and compeltely out of position, and then Statsny beat him 5 hole.  all 3 iMO were weak and i'm find if 1 of the 3 goes in I don't expect perfect but 3 is too many to be an NHL goalie. LIke I said I will give him credit he still made some saves at the end to keep the lead

 

 

At this point in time, I would actually agree with this assessment.

 

Only two additional thoughts:

 

1.

You have to re-assess after the season is complete.   Good, or bad.    A lot of talk on here suggests it's irrelevant.

       I disagree, in both directions.

                   Moving forward:

                              My guess is that he would need .930 or higher to seriously alter the Flame's acquisition plans.

                                        My guess is, if that happened, a lot of opinions on here would change as well.

                              Likewise, below .900 at season end, and I'm not sure he gets an extension.

 

 

2.    

 there's more to this than goaltending.  The Flames Need to address defense issues as well.   Their shots against are...ok.  Not good enough, but ok.  But we are seeing some concerning defensive lapses.   As well, our top defenceman is exiting his prime.

 

with no goalies signed for next year i'm comfortable enough giving him a qualifying offer. Where I do agree, is the how the season winds up will help you determin whether or not your are shopping for 1 or 2 goalies in the offseason.

The reason I advocate keeping him is lets say you don't and you go out and get 2 new goalies in the offseason. YOu are still 1 injury away from Jon Gilles needing to be called up and I'm not comfortable with that. NHL or AHL, Ortio gives you depth.

 

While yes I do agree the D can make D improvement let's also be realitics here. The Flames are the 12th best team in the leage with shots against and generally with Ortio has been starting they have been giving up 28 or less. Which by the way would make them the 6 best team in the league...

 

yes there are defensive issues to fix but there are with every team, no team is perfect. I agree with Kehatch that I think when Ortio has been in net the Flames have played much better in front of him. Its not like he is getting shelled. 

[jjgallow]

Which by the way would make them the 6 best team in the league...

 

Agree with most of that....

 

Just for the record, even if we Were the 6th best team in the NHL, which we're clearly not.....

 

6th best, with half of our best D over 30, actually Isn't good enough, imho.  

 

Yes it's good, and yes we lag way more in other areas.   But defence takes a Long time to develop.  A Really long time.

 

If we want to make a run for the cup, at this stage in the rebuild we Should be 6th best or better (and we're not), and it should be coming mostly from our younger D (and it's not).

 

So, while I agree that we're not BAD.... there are some on here actually claiming that we're "Done" the rebuild.  If that's the case, then yeah....we've got a lot of work to do on the back end.  

 

p.s...Honestly if Ortio can't make the jump to the NHL soon (I think he can), there are better, younger ways of getting depth that will help your team more in the future.  He'll be 25 next year.   yes, I know, Kipper....but anyway I think it'll be a moot point.  With any luck, he earns his NHL spot and enters his prime in the NHL.

[phoenix66]

Since his most recent recall Ortio has went 3-5-2, .904, 2.60. Those aren't good numbers. Keep in mind that the Flames have been short on D over that time. But they have also averaged 27 shots on net per game so it isn't like they have been terrible defensively. I can't think of many games where he was hung out to dry defensively.

He should get another 10 games or so to finish the season. But unless his team collapses in front of him I want those numbers to improve. Otherwise I am at least testing the waters this summer for an upgrade before signing him to an extension.

That said he kept them at 2 goals against in 6 of his 9 starts. So I am hoping the last couple of games are just a blip and he will improve for the last 10.

 

 

What in the Blue Blazes , is wrong with a .904 ??? anything above .900 is NHL caliber  and you cant go by the wins record , its hard to win when your team scores 1 measley goal.. if you think for  one second Ben Bishop can come there and keep his .928 you're dreaming , when you look at the amount of actual scoring chances each team gets on them . Its rare these contending teams need a goalie to steal a game. It does happen , but unless we get them stealing one every night we're not getting the wins in our current state

[420since1974]

Orito is eligible for a mandatory 110% of his current salary of $600k.

 

So, his QO must be at least $660k, one way, one year term.

 

Based on what I've seen so far, that is what he is worth right now.

[cross16]

What in the Blue Blazes , is wrong with a .904 ??? anything above .900 is NHL caliber  and you cant go by the wins record , its hard to win when your team scores 1 measley goal.. if you think for  one second Ben Bishop can come there and keep his .928 you're dreaming , when you look at the amount of actual scoring chances each team gets on them . Its rare these contending teams need a goalie to steal a game. It does happen , but unless we get them stealing one every night we're not getting the wins in our current state

 

It is NHL calibre, but barely and its certainly not good. Tied for 40th in the league. 

 

Disagree with the bolded too. Ask anyone who follows the Blackhawks, or Lighnting about how their teams were playing the first half of the season. Their goalies kept them in it, stole games and allowed their teams to find themselves and now both are rolling. 

 

 

Orito is eligible for a mandatory 110% of his current salary of $600k.

 

So, his QO must be at least $660k, one way, one year term.

 

Based on what I've seen so far, that is what he is worth right now.

 

Yup, my bad I looked at the wrong number and used 105%. you are correct. 

[kehatch]

I'd argue that the Ottawa game's third period was a full team breakdown. Take that out, his numbers still aren't great but they aren't as bad.

(specifically 0.917, 2.50 GAA)

With that, his numbers aren't fantastic, but they aren't terrible.

Ottawa was a team breakdown.

Blues was 7-4 river hockey.

Yes, we have to factor those in, but I'd hardly call either of those typical. Assuming that those don't recur in the next 10 his numbers will definitely improve.

If you could pick and choose which games or periods to include every goalie would ha E radically different stats. Over a 10 game sample most teams are going have a period or game that is off.