Goaltending

[jjgallow]

This isn't brain surgery. The Flames have three good centres to build around. They have three good top 3 D to build around. They have a couple of good wingers to build around. They don't have a good goalie to build around.

 

Who would those top 3 D be?   

[darth_henning]

Ortio has looked solid the last 2 games. I was hoping he could have got the shutout let alone the win but he's been good. Now if he keeps it up what do we sign Ortio at? He's got a small sample of games for leverage so I don't think we'd even have to pay overpay him at this point. He could still come in under $2milli

 

if he continues to play as well as the last 2 games, I think he comes in around 2 mil. Assuming that he's likely to drop off a bit to about league average probably lookint at 1.5. 

 

Definitely affordable, presuming he keep up decent play. Hopefully he doesn't have some injury or collapse. 

 

This isn't brain surgery. The Flames have three good centres to build around. They have three good top 3 D to build around. They have a couple of good wingers to build around. They don't have a good goalie to build around.

Also not brain surgery. Trying to develop players in an environment where every mistake turns into a goal isn't good. Trying to build a team without good goaltending isn't good. Waiting until your on the verge to start your search for a goalie (and likely fail) isn't good.

Again not brain surgery. If Ortio and Gilles turn out and you have another starter in your pocket that isn't a bad thing. It's like having too many top end D or too many number one centres. It would be a fantastic problem to have. However if they dont turn it (very possible) and you haven't found a starter...

The Flames need a goalie. I can't even believe that is a discussion.

 

I think there's a bit of a difference between what the two sides are arguing. 

 

 

No one is saying not to get a starting goalie who plays #1. Everyone agrees we need a #1 goalie. 

 

The question is how people are defining #1. 

 

If we're talking about going after a 6-8 million player who steals games on a nightly basis like Price, Quick or the like, then we simply cannot afford that this season. 

 

If we're talking about getting a 4-5 million goalie who will be consistently good, but not mind-blowing, then that's something we definitely have to look at. 

 

 

There's a big difference between those two types of goalies. Right now we can afford one of them. Not the other. 

[robrob1974]

2 for Ortio? Ummmmmmmmm no. Just because he played well in a handful of games doesn't make him worth that much. Wow!

Maybe 1.5 but I would go around what he is making now on a 1 or 2 year deal.

[420since1974]

The Qualifying Offer for Orito must be at least $660,000.

[andymo]

2 for Ortio? Ummmmmmmmm no. Just because he played well in a handful of games doesn't make him worth that much. Wow!

Maybe 1.5 but I would go around what he is making now on a 1 or 2 year deal.

Indeed. Let's not forget his save percentage is below .90 in both NHL and AHL this season...

[jjgallow]

if he continues to play as well as the last 2 games, I think he comes in around 2 mil. Assuming that he's likely to drop off a bit to about league average probably lookint at 1.5. 

 

Definitely affordable, presuming he keep up decent play. Hopefully he doesn't have some injury or collapse. 

 

 

I think there's a bit of a difference between what the two sides are arguing. 

 

 

No one is saying not to get a starting goalie who plays #1. Everyone agrees we need a #1 goalie. 

 

The question is how people are defining #1. 

 

If we're talking about going after a 6-8 million player who steals games on a nightly basis like Price, Quick or the like, then we simply cannot afford that this season. 

 

If we're talking about getting a 4-5 million goalie who will be consistently good, but not mind-blowing, then that's something we definitely have to look at. 

 

 

There's a big difference between those two types of goalies. Right now we can afford one of them. Not the other. 

 

 

For me, the discrepancy may be partly the definition, but also a question of when.

 

You are correct, nobody is saying "don't get a #1".

 

Some here see it as an obvious hole on our team that needs to be filled.

 

I see it as an obvious hole on our team that is Already been filled by our pipeline, which will need to be replenished.

 

 

 

A BIG Part of that has to do with time.  Most want a solution "now".  And it bothers me that even some of the most knowledgeable fans out there, can't resist this even tough they Know it's not the way to a Stanley cup.

 

Part of it is Definition.  Intertwined with Time.  Can Ortio and/or Gillies be that #1?

 

We don't know.   I want to wait and see.  Others want someone who's more established now, even though the best years of their development curve has passed them, and their ceiling is lower.  Personally, if their ceiling is below Stanley cup level, I fail to see the point of bringing them in.  That goes for Ortio too.  But we need to give him enough games to clarify that.

 

Others...just want that bonafide #1 right now.  Which would kill our cap, rob us of draft picks, and leave us with a very weak team that spent the best years of this rebuild fighting to make a playoff spot.

 

 

My mantra...be patient.  Build your youth.   We have Other holes to fill, there is no rush.  If a franchise goaltender could win us the cup next year, it would be different.  But they can't. 

 

Timing is everything.

[cross16]

I think we are getting way ahead of oursevles in regards to Ortio's salary. If he started just about every game the rest of the way and played at a near Vezina calibre he might be worth 2 million. If he plays like a decent starter he probably gets a small raise off his qualifying offer and probably comes in less than a million. He will have less than 40 games worth of NHL experience and you don't overpay for that. 

 

he will have next to no leveage in talks with the Flames. His only leverage would be trying to get a pro deal done overseas and getting the Flames to match it. 

[jjgallow]

I think we are getting way ahead of oursevles in regards to Ortio's salary.

 

No idea at all how you had vezina and $2 million in the same sentence, or how his play was "only ok", because he didn't actually get a shutout.

 

But...this one sentence...we agree on.   I've marked it down.

[JTech780]

For me, the discrepancy may be partly the definition, but also a question of when.

You are correct, nobody is saying "don't get a #1".

Some here see it as an obvious hole on our team that needs to be filled.

I see it as an obvious hole on our team that is Already been filled by our pipeline, which will need to be replenished.

A BIG Part of that has to do with time. Most want a solution "now". And it bothers me that even some of the most knowledgeable fans out there, can't resist this even tough they Know it's not the way to a Stanley cup.

Part of it is Definition. Intertwined with Time. Can Ortio and/or Gillies be that #1?

We don't know. I want to wait and see. Others want someone who's more established now, even though the best years of their development curve has passed them, and their ceiling is lower. Personally, if their ceiling is below Stanley cup level, I fail to see the point of bringing them in. That goes for Ortio too. But we need to give him enough games to clarify that.

Others...just want that bonafide #1 right now. Which would kill our cap, rob us of draft picks, and leave us with a very weak team that spent the best years of this rebuild fighting to make a playoff spot.

My mantra...be patient. Build your youth. We have Other holes to fill, there is no rush. If a franchise goaltender could win us the cup next year, it would be different. But they can't.

Timing is everything.

So if Gillies or McDonald or Ortio don't pan out and they just end up being average starters, what do we do then?

Our cap situation really isn't going to get better the longer we wait. Sure some guys like Raymond and Smid will be coming off the cap, but guys like Bennett will be looking for big raises in the not too distant future.

Why wait for maybes?

Let's keep waiting and let Gaudreau and Monahan's prime years pass them by. There have been a few studies that suggest that a forwards peak production is at 24 and that there is a steady decline for there.

[kehatch]

For me, the discrepancy may be partly the definition, but also a question of when.

You are correct, nobody is saying "don't get a #1".

Some here see it as an obvious hole on our team that needs to be filled.

I see it as an obvious hole on our team that is Already been filled by our pipeline, which will need to be replenished.

A BIG Part of that has to do with time. Most want a solution "now". And it bothers me that even some of the most knowledgeable fans out there, can't resist this even tough they Know it's not the way to a Stanley cup.

Part of it is Definition. Intertwined with Time. Can Ortio and/or Gillies be that #1?

We don't know. I want to wait and see. Others want someone who's more established now, even though the best years of their development curve has passed them, and their ceiling is lower. Personally, if their ceiling is below Stanley cup level, I fail to see the point of bringing them in. That goes for Ortio too. But we need to give him enough games to clarify that.

Others...just want that bonafide #1 right now. Which would kill our cap, rob us of draft picks, and leave us with a very weak team that spent the best years of this rebuild fighting to make a playoff spot.

My mantra...be patient. Build your youth. We have Other holes to fill, there is no rush. If a franchise goaltender could win us the cup next year, it would be different. But they can't.

Timing is everything.

Your putting to much bank on unproven prospects. Ortio was terrible early and has one good and one decent game under his belt, Gilles is missing most of this season and is a ways off, and MacDonald is a project.

Nobody is suggesting depleting the prospect pool or spending the last dime on a goalie. It isn't nearly as dramatic, extreme, or as black and white as you make it.

[jjgallow]

Why wait for maybes?

 

 

 

Why Trade for maybes?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I got worked up last night!  Haven't done that on here in a Long time.  Haven't quite settled down enough to offer out apologies.

 

In hindsight, what's frustrating, is some of the attitudes.  We just watched Ortio play two great games.  I'm sorry, but when you're 30 seconds away from a shutout in a game like that, you've played great.  

 

Not ok.   Not just ok.  Not so-so.  Great

 

Difficult to see that level for two straight games, and on the cusp of a near-shutout, people are saying "he's deteriorating", he was "just ok" but gonna get worse....   "sure he nearly got a shutout, but look at those rebounds"...

 

Look...Every goaltender has weaknesses.   Even elite vets.  For Years, I could barely stand to watch Kipper stick handle.  He gradually...VERY gradually...got better.

 

It's a bit sad.  How much tolerance we have for Extremely poor veteran goaltending, and how Little fan support we give GREAT rookie goaltending.   To watch a rookie come in, play above .940 for TWO straight games, and have to read a bunch of post-game nonsense about "clearly, our biggest problem is in net".   Come On.

[cross16]

i'll respond JJ because it sounds like you are targetting my post. Here is what I meant.

 

Last year, Ortio started strong and faded. During that time I saw holes in his game that came to expose themsvles. He goes down too quickly and crouches too low exposing the top of the net, and he gives up rebounds. As I said in that post that was last year.

 

I thought he was very good against LA, but last night you started to see the same issues pop up again. 3 times he lost the puck and either looked behind him or had a teammate clear it for him, he kicked out more rebounds and I didn't like the first Islanders goal. 

 

Might not meant anything and he could be fine the rest of the way but I look for traits more so than results and there are some worrying traits with Ortio even if the results are great (just like they were last year)

[robrob1974]

Cross, I see those too and when someone looks more awkward than stable it is concerning and it was refreshing to see him play well his first start. I didn't watch last night's game. Kerr and Steinberg say he played solid enough last night. But I wish I saw the game.

[cross16]

Cross, I see those too and when someone looks more awkward than stable it is concerning and it was refreshing to see him play well his first start. I didn't watch last night's game. Kerr and Steinberg say he played solid enough last night. But I wish I saw the game.

 

And he did. He didn't play poorly by any means nor was it his fault they lose or anything like that. I just think most are saying he played great and for me personally I saw some warning signs i'm hoping are just nerves/not playing as much. Just when it's the same you say last year you get a bit nervous. 

[Carty]

I just think most are saying he played great

 

Rather than thinking that Ortio was great, I believe he played well enough the last 2 games that he was a significant upgrade over Hiller...   and at this point in time, that is what counts when it comes to deciding who gets the start against the Senators...

 

I also believe that the team looked more comfortable, like they felt that they stood more of a chance than they did with Hiller...

 

Does Ortio have some flawed traits, sure he does, all but a few goalies do...   Ortio is young enough to be able to improve, but that said, I also think that the Flames could use an upgrade for a goatending coach...

 

At this point in time with limited options, Hartley should (has to) start Ortio and give him a string of games...   Ortio has earned that much...   and the Flames need to see what Ortio can do...   They already know what Hiller can't do...

[travel_dude]

Ortio will become a UFA unless he plays 10 more games this season.  

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2016/2/26/joni-ortio-could-become-a-ufa-unless-he-plays-a-ton

[cross16]

Ortio will become a UFA unless he plays 10 more games this season.  

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2016/2/26/joni-ortio-could-become-a-ufa-unless-he-plays-a-ton

 

Group 6 status but i'm not too concerend persnally. Out of the final 22 games I don't see him plaing less than 10 and if he does that likely means his play does warrant it and then you are porbably not in a bidding war to bring him back.

 

But I do think he'll play at least 10, probably more so I dont' think that will be an issue. 

[kehatch]

It's a bit sad. How much tolerance we have for Extremely poor veteran goaltending, and how Little fan support we give GREAT rookie goaltending. To watch a rookie come in, play above .940 for TWO straight games, and have to read a bunch of post-game nonsense about "clearly, our biggest problem is in net". Come On.

Wow TWO straight games? TWO!!! Sheesh, I didn't know it was such a high number. In that case I agree. Let's all go off the deep end on the terrible fans who aren't ready to hang the future around Ortio's neck. Hogwash I say.

I mean we aren't talking about one game. Two. TWO! I wish I had some more time to put up some crazy pictures to extenuate my point on how utterly amazing that is. It's a game changer. Stop yesterday's strategy folks we have two good games here.

I don't want to hear any nonsense about the rest of his AHL or NHL season. I definitely don't want to even consider looking into additional options. Two baskets. Bah. I will just stack my eggs sky high. What could happen? Two games! TWO!!!

Now I just need to figure out if Gaudreau, Brodie, or Ortio slots first on important core players. Two games. Wowzers.

[cccsberg]

Wow TWO straight games? TWO!!! Sheesh, I didn't know it was such a high number. In that case I agree. Let's all go off the deep end on the terrible fans who aren't ready to hang the future around Ortio's neck. Hogwash I say.

I mean we aren't talking about one game. Two. TWO! I wish I had some more time to put up some crazy pictures to extenuate my point on how utterly amazing that is. It's a game changer. Stop yesterday's strategy folks we have two good games here.

I don't want to hear any nonsense about the rest of his AHL or NHL season. I definitely don't want to even consider looking into additional options. Two baskets. Bah. I will just stack my eggs sky high. What could happen? Two games! TWO!!!

Now I just need to figure out if Gaudreau, Brodie, or Ortio slots first on important core players. Two games. Wowzers.

The two games were great, and it was great to see.  Hopefully he can keep it up and establish consistency over the next 20+ games.  Regardless of which, we currently have zero goalies(except rookies) inked for next season so, yes, its a pretty significant issue.

[Carty]

The two games were great, and it was great to see.  Hopefully he can keep it up and establish consistency over the next 20+ games.  Regardless of which, we currently have zero goalies(except rookies) inked for next season so, yes, its a pretty significant issue.

 

We'll just strap some pads on Russell and put him in net...   He blocks shots better than Hiller anyway...  

[jjgallow]

Wow TWO straight games? TWO!!! Sheesh, I didn't know it was such a high number. In that case I agree. Let's all go off the deep end on the terrible fans who aren't ready to hang the future around Ortio's neck. Hogwash I say.

I mean we aren't talking about one game. Two. TWO! I wish I had some more time to put up some crazy pictures to extenuate my point on how utterly amazing that is. It's a game changer. Stop yesterday's strategy folks we have two good games here.

I don't want to hear any nonsense about the rest of his AHL or NHL season. I definitely don't want to even consider looking into additional options. Two baskets. Bah. I will just stack my eggs sky high. What could happen? Two games! TWO!!!

Now I just need to figure out if Gaudreau, Brodie, or Ortio slots first on important core players. Two games. Wowzers.

 

That's twice as many games as it took the Flames to banish him last year, after 5 straight wins.

 

The point is, some people on here seem to be more concerned with the distinct possibility that they were wrong about him, than being happy that he had two great games.

 

A whole let of energy is being used up defending positions on him, rather than saying "hey, kid had a great game".

 

Maybe they all see something I don't.  It couldn't possibly be ego-related.

[robrob1974]

That's twice as many games as it took the Flames to banish him last year, after 5 straight wins.

The point is, some people on here seem to be more concerned with the distinct possibility that they were wrong about him, than being happy that he had two great games.

A whole let of energy is being used up defending positions on him, rather than saying "hey, kid had a great game".

Maybe they all see something I don't. It couldn't possibly be ego-related.

What I saw last year was a guy who went down early on every shot leaving top corners open and having to make glove saves behind his head because of it. When you're making saves that you can't see it is extremely dangerous and it was something NHLers caught onto and opened him up as his string of starts went on.

Of those games you reference, he was lucky to win one or two of them and his game slowly spiralled off.

I am all for giving him a try and I hope he fixed those tendencies. I liked how he tracked the puck in the 1st of the last two games. But forgive me for being skeptical because he hasn't shown yet that he had fixed those tendencies.

[kehatch]

That's twice as many games as it took the Flames to banish him last year, after 5 straight wins.

 

The point is, some people on here seem to be more concerned with the distinct possibility that they were wrong about him, than being happy that he had two great games.

 

A whole let of energy is being used up defending positions on him, rather than saying "hey, kid had a great game".

 

Maybe they all see something I don't.  It couldn't possibly be ego-related.

 

What are you talking about?  People have said he played well. The only contentious posts are the ones responding to your suggestion that the Flames should no longer be looking for a goalie because Ortio has two good games.  I think your seeing shadows.  

 

I have never like Ortio. That isn't a secret.  But I have also been one of Hartley's harshest critics for not giving the guy an opportunity.  I won't speak for anyone else, but I want the kids to succeed.  But that doesn't mean I think the Flames should give up on finding a goalie.  

 

We have zero NHL goalies inked for next season.  Our options for re-signing are a guy who has been terrible (Hiller), one who has been wildly inconsistent but who has averaged below mediocre (Ramo), and one who lost the starting job in the AHL (Ortio).  I am not willing on gambling on an Ortio / garbage tandem next season while I am gambling that Gilles is the future starter for the Flames.  That is reckless.  Two good games don't change that assessment.  

 

None of that is an indictment of Ortio's last two games.  None of that is a suggestion that the Flames should spend all of our picks and prospects on a 6-million dollar mediocre veteran.  None of that is giving up on or removing opportunities for Gilles and Ortio down the road.  

 

Its is a practical opinion that the Flames should be in the market for a youngish NHL ready goalie who can play tandem with someone like Ortio (if he continues to play well) or Ramo (if he does not) next season.  This gives us a bit of insurance heading into next season and it gives us another shot of finding a long term starter.  

[JTech780]

That's twice as many games as it took the Flames to banish him last year, after 5 straight wins.

The point is, some people on here seem to be more concerned with the distinct possibility that they were wrong about him, than being happy that he had two great games.

A whole let of energy is being used up defending positions on him, rather than saying "hey, kid had a great game".

Maybe they all see something I don't. It couldn't possibly be ego-related.

Ortio played well enough to get us the win in both so far, we just couldn't get enough offense, and that happens.

I am not ready to anoint him as a true number 1 goalie because had 2 good games. I am ready to give him more games to see what he can do and see how he handles teams the 2nd time around. Right now there isn't really a book on Ortio, but let's see how he adjusts once teams start picking apart his weaknesses.

To me he goes down just as quick as Hiller, and he needs work on his rebound control.

Two good games, good job kid, but I need to see a lot more before I am going to get excited over him, because his past work has been sub par.

[travel_dude]

That's twice as many games as it took the Flames to banish him last year, after 5 straight wins.

 

The point is, some people on here seem to be more concerned with the distinct possibility that they were wrong about him, than being happy that he had two great games.

 

A whole let of energy is being used up defending positions on him, rather than saying "hey, kid had a great game".

 

Maybe they all see something I don't.  It couldn't possibly be ego-related.

 

To be fair, Ortio went back to the AHL because he had to.  Ramo came back off IR.  That's how it works.  It wasn't being banished. Maybe I have that screwed up, but that's how I remember it.

 

As far as his two games.  Everyone agrees that he did enough to win, and should have been supported better by the offense. Like every Flames goalie, he gave up a softie or two.  His style this and last season is a bit risky.  He's athletic, so he's sort of like Ramo.  Younger, but similar.  His focus needs to be better.  Overall, though, he brought enough to win with a normal Flames lineup. We haven't seen a consistent winning lineup these days, so it's not his fault we lost.

 

Anyway, I'm out on this topic.  Hope the Flames find a true number 1 goalie.  We'll see who that turns out to be next season.