Goaltending

[omit555]

Hopefully an actual prospect under 21, rather than vets who are "the best goalie not in the NHL"

 

 

Thomas Lillie, Denis Godla, Alexandar Georgiyev, Dozens of other goalies who would have been drafted in a do-over.

 

They're such voodoo, it's extremely feasible to get free-agent prospects worth the investment.

Denis Godla is playing in my hometown team (Kokkolan Hermes) and I've seen him play a lot.

He has good games and bad games. His rebound control is bad, he loses the puck often but he is very quick and good with stick handling. He is very similar with Tim Thomas. He does everything to stop the puck. I think he is top3 goalie in Mestis ( 2nd highest league in Finland )

He is very nice guy, I met him once. 

 

Sorry about my rusty english

[JTech780]

IMHO, we need players younger than Gillies.  MacDonald is a bit of a crap shoot at best at this point.  He's struggled to find the next level.

 

Gillies is more ready than many of us think, imho.   And so is Ortio.   For the NHL. 

 

The last thing we need is to bring in new ways to slow their development.

 

The contrast of "we need to bring in a young goalie" to "Ortio is starting tonight".....

 

is becoming more apparent on this thread...

 

finally..

 

How is McDonalod a crap shoot? He currently has the 8th best save % in the QMJHL on a terrible team. Gillies had the 8th best save % in his last year of college on a very good defensive team. You can't compare stats from one player to the other because they are playing in completely different leagues. I see McDonald as being in the same class of prospect as Giliies.

[omit555]

Hopefully an actual prospect under 21, rather than vets who are "the best goalie not in the NHL"

 

 

Thomas Lillie, Denis Godla, Alexandar Georgiyev, Dozens of other goalies who would have been drafted in a do-over.

 

They're such voodoo, it's extremely feasible to get free-agent prospects worth the investment.

Denis Godla is playing in my hometown team (Kokkolan Hermes) and I've seen him play a lot.

He has good games and bad games. His rebound control is bad, he loses the puck often but he is very quick and good with stick handling. He is very similar with Tim Thomas. He does everything to stop the puck. I think he is top3 goalie in Mestis ( 2nd highest league in Finland )

He is very nice guy, I met him once. 

 

 

Sorry about my rusty english

[JTech780]

Godla's small, the other two are 6 feet.  That's just fine, imho.  Only slightly below average.  That doesn't make them below average goalies.  

 

Some of these guys would be first round draft picks if they were a couple inches taller.  Yet, we have many living examples in the NHL that show they can have just as much success, without being "prototypical".  "Prototypical" is nice, when you have a top 10 pick.  The rest of the time, it's expensive, and wasteful.

 

I listed goalies by performance, and age.  Such a bad thing, are we absolutely sure?  These guys are out-performing everyone else in their draft class, for the most part.

 

Sure, the NHL has veered towards taller goalies.

 

But does that make them better?  A lot of goaltending comes down to whether opportunities are given.

 

Tim Thomas did ok.  Once he was finally given a chance.

 

Jonas Enroth (5'10) has the 7th best save percentage in the NHL, but he's stuck in a backup role.  Should he be?

 

Jaroslav Halak, Khubodin, Tokarski,

 

 

I dunno, Gaudreau's kinda smallish took, but he worked out.   There may be some missed opportunities in the smaller goalie prospect pool.

 

I don't see Enroth as being a starter, he is a very good back up, but if he is the starter he gets picked apart. 

 

Of the 4 you listed 2 are NHL goalies and 1 is a starter, and even then Halak is losing his job to Greiss.

 

Small goalies can play in the NHL but if I am looking for a prospect I am taking the 6'2" and above goalie.

[rickross]

Time will tell but for now it appears the Flames might have been better off drafting Demko over Macdonald. I haven't lost all faith on Macdonald yet but Demko seems further along in his development.

[jjgallow]

How is McDonalod a crap shoot? He currently has the 8th best save % in the QMJHL on a terrible team. Gillies had the 8th best save % in his last year of college on a very good defensive team. You can't compare stats from one player to the other because they are playing in completely different leagues. I see McDonald as being in the same class of prospect as Giliies.

 

No disrespect to him.  But let's be realistic....they're NHL prospects.  By definition, Gillies is a crapshoot too.

 

Gillies was performing that well in his 2nd year of College too (at 19, like Mason now).  Quite frankly, you're right.  You can't compare US College to the QMJHL.  Because US college is an entirely higher caliber.

 

My concern is that in a league like the QMJHL, we should see year-over-year improvement.  We're not, really.  

 

Mason was drafted because he was tall.  He had peers who performed just as well or better, but didn't have the height.  So Mason will always be able to translate better to the NHL.  But at the junior level, we should be seeing improvement.

 

Just saying....I'm all for the guy and I think the Flame should invest in him.   Just don't put all your eggs in one basket, is all.

I don't see Enroth as being a starter, he is a very good back up, but if he is the starter he gets picked apart. 

 

Of the 4 you listed 2 are NHL goalies and 1 is a starter, and even then Halak is losing his job to Greiss.

 

Small goalies can play in the NHL but if I am looking for a prospect I am taking the 6'2" and above goalie.

 

Well you would be most GMs.  So I'm not about to argue with the logic in terms of spending actual draft picks.  Except that does untuitively create an opportunity to acquire cheap, un-signed, high-performing, incredible talent that didn't pass an arbitrary test.

[jjgallow]

Please do list all of these goalies I was not for acquiring that went on to bigger and better things....

 

 

Teams that invested in their goalie pipeline during that period, for the most part, have a good goalie situation now.

 

Teams that looked for stop-gap measures, aging veterans, or "best players not in the NHL", generally have a goalie problem right about now.  

[cross16]

delete

[jjgallow]

 

 

Plus maybe you also missed the part of my post where I said that I actually want the Flames to draft a goalie in the next season or two so that they may have another prospect in the pipeline. I've said before, IMO you should be drafting/acquiring a goalie at least every 2 drafts to keep that pipeline flowing. 

 

 

I didn't miss it, but I just don't see the point in acquiring more prospects if we're going to clog our system up with more Ramos and Hillers.    As well, drafts should be BPA.   Especially when it comes to goalie decisions.   When there's an opportunity to draft the best player available and it's a goalie, you draft them.  when there's not, you don't.

 

Statistically speaking, that should work out to 10% of your draft picks in the long run.   Or 2 goalies every 3 years.

 

Don't have enough goalie prospects?  Acquire them.

 

Have too many?  Trade them.

 

Afraid to play your prospects?  Play them.  Or lose them.

[travel_dude]

No disrespect to him.  But let's be realistic....they're NHL prospects.  By definition, Gillies is a crapshoot too.

 

Gillies was performing that well in his 2nd year of College too (at 19, like Mason now).  Quite frankly, you're right.  You can't compare US College to the QMJHL.  Because US college is an entirely higher caliber.

 

My concern is that in a league like the QMJHL, we should see year-over-year improvement.  We're not, really.  

 

Mason was drafted because he was tall.  He had peers who performed just as well or better, but didn't have the height.  So Mason will always be able to translate better to the NHL.  But at the junior level, we should be seeing improvement.

 

Just saying....I'm all for the guy and I think the Flame should invest in him.   Just don't put all your eggs in one basket, is all.

 

Well you would be most GMs.  So I'm not about to argue with the logic in terms of spending actual draft picks.  Except that does untuitively create an opportunity to acquire cheap, un-signed, high-performing, incredible talent that didn't pass an arbitrary test.

 

Mason was drafted because the scouts felt he has a higher ceiling than Demko.  Demko was also playing on a very dominant BC team, so his number didn't speak too much about him.  MacDonald was playing on a very weak team in a league not known for defensive play.

[jjgallow]

 

If it were as easy as signing someone just to have their rights while they played in Europe, then for sure, but it isn't. 

 

If it were easy, every team would win the cup.  It's never easy. But it's Not impossible.  There are solutions out there and there is precedence.

[cross16]

I didn't miss it, but I just don't see the point in acquiring more prospects if we're going to clog our system up with more Ramos and Hillers.    As well, drafts should be BPA.   Especially when it comes to goalie decisions.   When there's an opportunity to draft the best player available and it's a goalie, you draft them.  when there's not, you don't.

 

 

So instead of cloggin them up with draft picks we should clog them up with Free agent signings? That doesn't make sense, espeically consdiering that when you draft them you actually get a longer time frame and more flexiblity in terms of developing them then you get when you sign them as a free agent. If you want to sign someone as an undrafted free agent over the age of 20 they basically have to play on one of your farm teams. 

Teams that invested in their goalie pipeline during that period, for the most part, have a good goalie situation now.

 

Teams that looked for stop-gap measures, aging veterans, or "best players not in the NHL", generally have a goalie problem right about now.  

 

so what good free agent goalie that the Flames chose not to invest in is in the NHL and playing well right now?

 

In the last 10 years the Flames have drafted 7 goalies, so I am failing to see why you continue to suggest the Flames are not investing in their goalie pipeline. Again, I don't think you give near enough credit to the fact that developing a goalie is a very hard thing to do especially when the Flames had a legit star for as long as they did in Kipper. Its really, really tough to transition from 1 elite goalie to another one.

 

I didn't miss it, but I just don't see the point in acquiring more prospects if we're going to clog our system up with more Ramos and Hillers.    As well, drafts should be BPA.   Especially when it comes to goalie decisions.   When there's an opportunity to draft the best player available and it's a goalie, you draft them.  when there's not, you don't.

 

Statistically speaking, that should work out to 10% of your draft picks in the long run.   Or 2 goalies every 3 years.

 

Don't have enough goalie prospects?  Acquire them.

 

Have too many?  Trade them.

 

Afraid to play your prospects?  Play them.  Or lose them.

 

So instead of cloggin them up with draft picks we should clog them up with Free agent signings? That doesn't make sense, espeically consdiering that when you draft them you actually get a longer time frame and more flexiblity in terms of developing them then you get when you sign them as a free agent. If you want to sign someone as an undrafted free agent over the age of 20 they basically have to play on one of your farm teams. 

 

If it were easy, every team would win the cup.  It's never easy. But it's Not impossible.  There are solutions out there and there is precedence.

 

Such as?

 

Most goalies that are signed as UDFA out of Europe come over and make an immediate impact they don't get developed by that organization. Niklas Backstrom, Jonus HIller, Tim Thomas etc. 

[jjgallow]

So instead of cloggin them up with draft picks we should clog them up with Free agent signings? That doesn't make sense, espeically consdiering that when you draft them you actually get a longer time frame and more flexiblity in terms of developing them then you get when you sign them as a free agent. If you want to sign someone as an undrafted free agent over the age of 20 they basically have to play on one of your farm teams. 

 

You know a lot more about contract issue than me.   But, I also know, that you are being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

 

Nobody said they had to be over 20.   We have more than one farm team.   You can loan goalies out to other AHL team s as well.  You're entering an area you have a lot of knowledge in at the expense of avoiding the topic at hand.

[jjgallow]

delete

 

....yes...I saw that....and yes, I have a list.

[cross16]

You know a lot more about contract issue than me.   But, I also know, that you are being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

 

Nobody said they had to be over 20.   We have more than one farm team.   You can loan goalies out to other AHL team s as well.  You're entering an area you have a lot of knowledge in at the expense of avoiding the topic at hand.

 

Actually i'm trying to understand if you have found something, or proposing something I havn't thought of before so I am actually trying to understand where you are coming from.  I would love the idea of brining in more goalie prospects but based on my udnerstanding of contract rules/logistics I'm not seeing the upside but if someone has a better solution I'm all ears. 

 

I'm assuming we both agree the topic on hand is the Flames developing their own goalies but correct me if i'm wrong? 

 

I don't disagree that they do but where I do disagree is the philosphy of brining in a whole bunch and just seeing what happens because that is going to destroy your contract limits. I don't think you ahve afford to have more than 5 or 6 goalies in your organization under NHL contract otherwise your taking up spots for other prospects and you are having to really balance playing time. I thinkt he answer is more to first, draft the right guys and 2nd let them play. I think they missed on Irving as a player, but I also don't think they did the best job of just letting him play in the A. So with Gilles I'd rather see him play alot then have to compete with 2 or 3 guys. 

 

Edit: if you have a list JJ i'd love to see it because right now i'm not thinking of something the Flames missed that could have been signed as an UDFA and that is actually a "good goalie".

[DirtyDeeds]

While finding our next starting Goaltender is probably the biggest need for the Flames, we only have so many spots we can put prospects.

 

Getting more goaltenders to increase the odds of finding one in house has hard limits, unless you are going to loan them out. It isn't a crapshoot, it is just that most NHL Goaltenders develope older than any other position and we draft them too young to realize in advance that potential.

 

The better strategy is twofold:

 

• Make sure you fill those limited prospect spots with the highest quality possible.
• Make sure your system develops all to their best potential.

[DirtyDeeds]

........

 

In the last 10 years the Flames have drafted 7 goalies, so I am failing to see why you continue to suggest the Flames are not investing in their goalie pipeline. Again, I don't think you give near enough credit to the fact that developing a goalie is a very hard thing to do especially when the Flames had a legit star for as long as they did in Kipper. Its really, really tough to transition from 1 elite goalie to another one.

 

 

.......

I don't want to cover all that you two are jawing over but I would like to touch on this point. It is so tough to find a replacement for your #1 top goalie like Kipper was for us.

 

I am all for getting the mentor while we look. The mentor like Luongo was to Cory Schneider or Martin Brodeur too. Mentor can be older but still serviceable for a few years while you allow your prospects to develop in the system properly.

 

Just because you are a rebuilding team does not mean the Goaltender has to be young too. Dallas has no problem with carrying two #1 goaltenders on the NHL club while the prospects develop in the system.

[jjgallow]

I don't want to cover all that you two are jawing over but I would like to touch on this point. It is so tough to find a replacement for your #1 top goalie like Kipper was for us.

 

I am all for getting the mentor while we look. The mentor like Luongo was to Cory Schneider or Martin Brodeur too. Mentor can be older but still serviceable for a few years while you allow your prospects to develop in the system properly.

 

Just because you are a rebuilding team does not mean the Goaltender has to be young too. Dallas has no problem with carrying two #1 goaltenders on the NHL club while the prospects develop in the system.

 

I'll stop jawing.   Said my piece and it's going circular.

 

what's inferred above though, by using those examples, is that if we get a true #1 goaltender, or mentor, we're going to be a contender.

 

Unlikely.  

 

Goaltending isn't even our biggest issue.   the fact that it looks like it is...tells you where our biggest problems lie.

 

Patience....will be needed.

[darth_henning]

Goaltending is definitely our biggest problem. 

 

We have NO goalie signed for next year. Hiller is a disaster. Ramo was playing better of late, but has gone down with an injury that could permanently alter his play style for the worse. Ortio is an unknown at the NHL level and inconsistent in the AHL. 

 

There isn't a single other position you can point to on the team where we have NO proven or likely NHL caliber player for next year. 

 

 

 

Up Front we have 4 of a solid top 6, and Shinkaruck may be able to make that 5 as early as next year. 

 

We have good LW depth, amazing center depth. We are however light on RW, but between Frolik, Poirier and Jooris, we have acceptable options (and Shore has also played wing)

 

We have a great top 3 D, and while we have some vets clogging up the bottom 3, but we have some good prospects NHl ready for the bottom pair (Wotherspoon, Kulak, Nakladal).

 

 

 

Looking at our holes

 

1RW, 2LW, 3RW, 4D, 1G, 2G.

 

The ONLY position that's utterly vacant is goal. That's a problem. 

[phoenix66]

Believe it or not I'm totally with JJ on this.

To go out now and spend the money on a "true #1" is ludicrous. To make a difference you're talking about a 6-7 Million dollar goalie. Not to mention what you're giving up to get him.

Take the first 20 games of the season away and it's clear. I would be perfectly OK going into next season with Ramo and Ortio. Hiller is our weak link.

[JTech780]

Believe it or not I'm totally with JJ on this.

To go out now and spend the money on a "true #1" is ludicrous. To make a difference you're talking about a 6-7 Million dollar goalie. Not to mention what you're giving up to get him.

Take the first 20 games of the season away and it's clear. I would be perfectly OK going into next season with Ramo and Ortio. Hiller is our weak link.

We will be out of the playoffs again next year with that tandem.

I don't get this idea that we have to wait to get a number 1 goalie, it makes zero sense. If we can get a top end number 1 goalie then we have to do it, not should, but have to.

Sure we have other holes, but goaltending is far and away the number one hole.

Before we become a contender we have to become a playoff team and without an upgrade in net we won't be a playoff team.

[kehatch]

We will be out of the playoffs again next year with that tandem.

I don't get this idea that we have to wait to get a number 1 goalie, it makes zero sense. If we can get a top end number 1 goalie then we have to do it, not should, but have to.

Sure we have other holes, but goaltending is far and away the number one hole.

Before we become a contender we have to become a playoff team and without an upgrade in net we won't be a playoff team.

Agreed. When do people think it will be time to find a goalie? Once every other piece is in place? And what do you then? Plant your magic goalie seeds and hope one appears? How many teams have we seen fail because they couldn't find a goalie?

They call it building from the net out for a reason. Waiting on a goalie is about the worst things the Flames could do.

[phoenix66]

We will be out of the playoffs again next year with that tandem.

I don't get this idea that we have to wait to get a number 1 goalie, it makes zero sense. If we can get a top end number 1 goalie then we have to do it, not should, but have to.

Sure we have other holes, but goaltending is far and away the number one hole.

Before we become a contender we have to become a playoff team and without an upgrade in net we won't be a playoff team.

I could have sworn we made the playoffs last year with half that tandem.. And Ortio tossed in 5 great games of his own.

Ortio isn't the reason we lost to the King's the other night..and Ramo was certainly not the reason we lost that round to Anaheim last year.many losses this year Ramo has been a top star.

My point,is that goaltenders is not why we are missing the playoffs this year.

It's because we only have 1 1/2 lines of scoring. We have a defence that is still growing together.

By your definition Miller should have brought St Louis a cup..howd that work out?

We had kipper for how many years? How far did we get after 2004?

Not saying I wouldn't love to have a game stealing goalie but at the same time we could have Price back there and we would likely have a similar record.

We are going to have about 24mill to sign about 12 players. Johnny and Sean will get. 10-12 of that..you would give a goalie 5-6

That leaves about 6mill for 9 players

[kehatch]

I could have sworn we made the playoffs last year with half that tandem.. And Ortio tossed in 5 great games of his own.

Ortio isn't the reason we lost to the King's the other night..and Ramo was certainly not the reason we lost that round to Anaheim last year.many losses this year Ramo has been a top star.

My point,is that goaltenders is not why we are missing the playoffs this year.

It's because we only have 1 1/2 lines of scoring. We have a defence that is still growing together.

By your definition Miller should have brought St Louis a cup..howd that work out?

We had kipper for how many years? How far did we get after 2004?

Not saying I wouldn't love to have a game stealing goalie but at the same time we could have Price back there and we would likely have a similar record.

We are going to have about 24mill to sign about 12 players. Johnny and Sean will get. 10-12 of that..you would give a goalie 5-6

That leaves about 6mill for 9 players

That's a lot of words. But none if it changes the fact that the Flames have zero NHL goalies signed for next season and have had league worst goaltending this season.

[JTech780]

I could have sworn we made the playoffs last year with half that tandem.. And Ortio tossed in 5 great games of his own.

Ortio isn't the reason we lost to the King's the other night..and Ramo was certainly not the reason we lost that round to Anaheim last year.many losses this year Ramo has been a top star.

My point,is that goaltenders is not why we are missing the playoffs this year.

It's because we only have 1 1/2 lines of scoring. We have a defence that is still growing together.

By your definition Miller should have brought St Louis a cup..howd that work out?

We had kipper for how many years? How far did we get after 2004?

Not saying I wouldn't love to have a game stealing goalie but at the same time we could have Price back there and we would likely have a similar record.

We are going to have about 24mill to sign about 12 players. Johnny and Sean will get. 10-12 of that..you would give a goalie 5-6

That leaves about 6mill for 9 players

We made the playoffs last year because Hiller played like a starter last year, and he was a big reason why we made it to the 2nd round.

Ramo might not have been the reason why we lost to Anaheim, but he wasn't exactly all that great either.

The Kings and Blackhawks both have top 10 goaltenders that they spend $6mill on and they seem to do alright.