Goaltending

[xstrike]

I think it was as simple as they had room for one goalie in the AHL and chose Ortio over Brossoit. At the time Brossoit was playing in the ECHL.

Smid was a top 4 D at the time (barely) and the Flames really needed to add some size. He also had the attitude you wanted to build a culture around.

Age and injury have slowed him down and now he is just a bad contract. Meanwhile Brossoit is looking decent in the AHL. So I get why some don't like the deal in retrospect.

But at the time this was the right deal for the Flames. I try not to love a move on the day off and hate it years later. Would I take Brossoit over Smid today? Sure. But I liked the deal when it was made.

At the time of the trade I was a bit iffy. I liked Broissoit and thought he would be a good GK in the NHL eventually so I wasn't thrilled with the trade. Now I really don't like it because Smid's contract is terrible for what we get. Smid seems like a decent human being so I like him as a person, just not so much as a player with his contract hit.

 

To get back to tending, do you think the Flames are going to use any draft picks on a GK this year? If so, who do you think we should or could pick?

[kehatch]

If the Flames make a big move to acquire a player prior to the deadline or in the off season it will probably be for a goalie. We don't have cap space to bring on expensive forwards or D. But we are going to need to spend on a starter.

The question is three fold. One, who is available. Two, what will it cost. Three, what do they think of Ramo.

My guess is the Flames do trade for a tweeners goalie with NHL experience. Not sure who though.

[xstrike]

If the Flames make a big move to acquire a player prior to the deadline or in the off season it will probably be for a goalie. We don't have cap space to bring on expensive forwards or D. But we are going to need to spend on a starter.

The question is three fold. One, who is available. Two, what will it cost. Three, what do they think of Ramo.

My guess is the Flames do trade for a tweeners goalie with NHL experience. Not sure who though.

Well, I really meant which young tender we might pick at the draft, but trades are fine too.

[DirtyDeeds]

The Brodie deal wasn't a mistake. It isn't a bridge deal either. It's a great deal for the Flames.

But Gaudreau and Monahan are not in the same situation as Brodie. They are playing a very high level game right now.

I was listening to the Devils broadcast tonight and they mentioned JH and Monahan have been in on like 63% of all the Flames scoring.

[travel_dude]

I remember the day I heard about the deal. I remember thinking, "Eeeeeeeesh, this might come back to haunt the Flames in the long run..." But then, I didn't know much about Smid at the time. All I could say to myself was, alright... 

 

I always thought Smid was the hardest working Oiler.  He played tough against us in the past.  But he also made mistakes.  Overall, it could have been a good deal for us.  Smid today is like Russell in 3-5 years time.  You love what they brought, but you wish you didn't have them signed at that point.  If we re-sign Russell, you will see the same broken player.  

 

Since this about goalies, I will say I thought Brossoit could become an NHL goalie, but I haven't seen that progression to date.  He may still yet, but when is he going to get the chance.  They have Talbot and Nilsson ahead of him.  Laurikainen looks like he could become the better of the two AHL goalies.

[jjgallow]

But at the time this was the right deal for the Flames. I try not to love a move on the day off and hate it years later. Would I take Brossoit over Smid today? Sure. But I liked the deal when it was made.

 

I hated it at the time and really hate it a lot more now.  Does that come across as pompous and immature?  sigh...maybe.  But that's the truth.

 

It comes down to this:  We're rebuilding.  Aren't we?  

 

Also, the Flames just cannot seem to develop goaltenders.  The most successful ones Do tend to be the ones that get out of our system.   I thought it was very premature to trade Brossoit and along with development, I feel the Flames really need to improve on their goaltender evaluation.

 

ps...Smid is great.   Short term, it was good for us.  But...What exactly are we doing giving Edmonton more prospects?

 

When I go off about how we should have brought Ortio up sooner...that's not Just about Ortio.  It's about the glut in our development system that was created by refusing to take any risks (succeed or fail).  A glut that delayed the development of Jon Gillies.  A glut that left us no room to develop Brossoit (forcing a trade).  A glut that Still exists today on our AHL team.

 

 

Ok...that's my rant, apologies in advance

[kehatch]

I hated it at the time and really hate it a lot more now. Does that come across as pompous and immature? sigh...maybe. But that's the truth.

It comes down to this: We're rebuilding. Aren't we?

Also, the Flames just cannot seem to develop goaltenders. The most successful ones Do tend to be the ones that get out of our system. I thought it was very premature to trade Brossoit and along with development, I feel the Flames really need to improve on their goaltender evaluation.

ps...Smid is great. Short term, it was good for us. But...What exactly are we doing giving Edmonton more prospects?

When I go off about how we should have brought Ortio up sooner...that's not Just about Ortio. It's about the glut in our development system that was created by refusing to take any risks (succeed or fail). A glut that delayed the development of Jon Gillies. A glut that left us no room to develop Brossoit (forcing a trade). A glut that Still exists today on our AHL team.

Ok...that's my rant, apologies in advance

I can respect the opinion of not trading prospects for veterans. Especially expensive depth veterans with term on their contract. In this case I was okay with the trade because it appeared we got something for nothing. But what we got is now a liability and the nothing is doing pretty well so retrospectively I understand the concern.

What I don't agree with is that the Flames failing to call up Ortio negatively effected his development. I have never seen a prospects development details by extra time in the minors.

At the time of the trade Ortio didn't have a single season in the AHL as a starter. Meanwhile the Flames had just traded away the previous generation and were going into a rebuild year. Putting Ortio into the NHL would have been unfair and a poor development decision.

Which meant Ortio was in the AHL and there was no room for Brossoit. We could have left him in the ECHL (that is what the Oilers did) but with Gilles on his way I understand why the Flames traded Brossoit.

I get that the Flames treatment of Ortio after the 13/14 season is debatable. But honestly I think that Ortio deserves a lot of the blame. He was given a number of opportunities and he failed to step up. You can look at it with micro detail and try to deflect the blame of him not stepping up to the Flames, but we don't have the details so your working with concipiracy rather then facts.

I get the Flames don't have a good track record for developing goalies. But everyone has changed. Coaches, trainers, etc. It's tough to blame this on a systemic issue when the system has changed.

Bottom line for me is that it's on Ortio to step up and he hasn't. I don't think there is an overarching concipiracy or a deep rooted failure of the Flames development system.

[rickross]

In all fairness it was under Feasters watch. Once they drafted Gillies they assumed he was the better option moving forward. It's a missed opportunity considering that Kipper did nothing but reiterate the importance of the position within this organization. It could have been a crowded but healthy situation , just look at the young goalie depth of the Jets. Flames are now seeing how expensive even mediocre goal tending can be in this league.

[cccsberg]

I can respect the opinion of not trading prospects for veterans. Especially expensive depth veterans with term on their contract. In this case I was okay with the trade because it appeared we got something for nothing. But what we got is now a liability and the nothing is doing pretty well so retrospectively I understand the concern.

What I don't agree with is that the Flames failing to call up Ortio negatively effected his development. I have never seen a prospects development details by extra time in the minors.

At the time of the trade Ortio didn't have a single season in the AHL as a starter. Meanwhile the Flames had just traded away the previous generation and were going into a rebuild year. Putting Ortio into the NHL would have been unfair and a poor development decision.

Which meant Ortio was in the AHL and there was no room for Brossoit. We could have left him in the ECHL (that is what the Oilers did) but with Gilles on his way I understand why the Flames traded Brossoit.

I get that the Flames treatment of Ortio after the 13/14 season is debatable. But honestly I think that Ortio deserves a lot of the blame. He was given a number of opportunities and he failed to step up. You can look at it with micro detail and try to deflect the blame of him not stepping up to the Flames, but we don't have the details so your working with concipiracy rather then facts.

I get the Flames don't have a good track record for developing goalies. But everyone has changed. Coaches, trainers, etc. It's tough to blame this on a systemic issue when the system has changed.

Bottom line for me is that it's on Ortio to step up and he hasn't. I don't think there is an overarching concipiracy or a deep rooted failure of the Flames development system.

Agree on most of your points.  At the time of the trade it was definitely something for nothing, and we had some good options.  Smid it appears in retrospect, was still suffering from an old injury which placed him up until this year after another surgery.  In retrospect not what we wanted but the original deal was OK.  

 

As for Ortio, the past two seasons have started poorly and gradually built to pretty solid, so the inconsistencies have been a concern.  This past Fall should have been his shot but things got derailed with the (apparent) failed goalie trade and resultant three-headed monster.   What happens going forward is still on him.  If he gets it together there is still a chance to backup here next Fall but I think its a longshot at best. 

 

That leaves us with two solid prospects for next Fall, which would have been much better if Gillies didn't lose a season due to injury but those things sometimes happen, and can't be predicted.  

 

If we re-sign Ramo for 2 years and get Ortio or another goalie as back-up we'll be fine, especially if the team fails to move out some of our deadweight players before their contracts are up.

[travel_dude]

On the farm, it looks like Huska is going with Poulin for now.  A B2B start for him, as opposed to using Ortio.

 

Ortio's last 2 games:

January 8th  6-1 loss, 6 GA  (35 shots)

January 17th  7-4 win, 4 GA (28 shots)

 

Poulin:

January 13th  6-2 win, 2 GA (33 shots)

January 16th  0-3 loss, 2 GA, 1 EN  (29 shots)

January 22nd  2-1 SOW, 1GA  (0 goals on shoot out) (31 shots)

January 23rd  3-2 OTW, 2GA (26 shots)

 

Not a big sample size, but Poulin seems to be the choice right now.  Even after a back to back.  Ortio isn't doing himself any favors with his recent games.  Hope he picks it up soon, or he won't even get a deal next year.  

[cross16]

On the farm, it looks like Huska is going with Poulin for now.  A B2B start for him, as opposed to using Ortio.

 

Ortio's last 2 games:

January 8th  6-1 loss, 6 GA  (35 shots)

January 17th  7-4 win, 4 GA (28 shots)

 

Poulin:

January 13th  6-2 win, 2 GA (33 shots)

January 16th  0-3 loss, 2 GA, 1 EN  (29 shots)

January 22nd  2-1 SOW, 1GA  (0 goals on shoot out) (31 shots)

January 23rd  3-2 OTW, 2GA (26 shots)

 

Not a big sample size, but Poulin seems to be the choice right now.  Even after a back to back.  Ortio isn't doing himself any favors with his recent games.  Hope he picks it up soon, or he won't even get a deal next year.

Contract offer or not I'm thinking Ortio heads back overseas in the offseason. His NHL prospects arnt looking too promising and I can't imagine he wants to toll around as an AHL option at less than 100k when he could make a bunch more in Europe.

I'd be willing to keep him even with the struggles but I think Europe will be too attractive an option.

[travel_dude]

Contract offer or not I'm thinking Ortio heads back overseas in the offseason. His NHL prospects arnt looking too promising and I can't imagine he wants to toll around as an AHL option at less than 100k when he could make a bunch more in Europe.

I'd be willing to keep him even with the struggles but I think Europe will be too attractive an option.

 

Actually, he is making $600k on a 1-way contract.

 

If Ramo keeps playing the way he has since being recalled, he may get another contract.  Barring a trade for a goalie (Bishop, Anderson, etc.), the Flames may re-sign Ramo.  If so, they may try to sign Ortio or Poulin.  Neither is particularly attractive NHL options right now, but we need to do something.

[MAC331]

I think it was as simple as they had room for one goalie in the AHL and chose Ortio over Brossoit. At the time Brossoit was playing in the ECHL.

Smid was a top 4 D at the time (barely) and the Flames really needed to add some size. He also had the attitude you wanted to build a culture around.

Age and injury have slowed him down and now he is just a bad contract. Meanwhile Brossoit is looking decent in the AHL. So I get why some don't like the deal in retrospect.

But at the time this was the right deal for the Flames. I try not to love a move on the day off and hate it years later. Would I take Brossoit over Smid today? Sure. But I liked the deal when it was made.

Is he a bad contract ? when healthy and so far this year his play has been good. You can never be to sure about what will or can happen but he may be the one to keep. Trade Russell and Engelland at this year's TDL and work on Wideman in the offseason.

[kehatch]

Is he a bad contract ? when healthy and so far this year his play has been good. You can never be to sure about what will or can happen but he may be the one to keep. Trade Russell and Engelland at this year's TDL and work on Wideman in the offseason.

He makes over 3 million, has another year under contract, plays limited minutes, and alternates every other game as a healthy scratch. Definitely a bad contract.

Engellands contract might be a bit easier to trade based on his health, age, size, and RH shot. But with another season under contract I doubt you find a take for him without taking back a bad contract.

[cross16]

Actually, he is making $600k on a 1-way contract.

 

If Ramo keeps playing the way he has since being recalled, he may get another contract.  Barring a trade for a goalie (Bishop, Anderson, etc.), the Flames may re-sign Ramo.  If so, they may try to sign Ortio or Poulin.  Neither is particularly attractive NHL options right now, but we need to do something.

Right now he is but I suspect next year he isn't going to get many 1 way deals st that price range. My bet is his next contract is a two way which will pay him much less than 600k

[MAC331]

He makes over 3 million, has another year under contract, plays limited minutes, and alternates every other game as a healthy scratch. Definitely a bad contract.

Engellands contract might be a bit easier to trade based on his health, age, size, and RH shot. But with another season under contract I doubt you find a take for him without taking back a bad contract.

The way they are using him now, sure it is a bad contract however with regular playing time (even if it is after the TDL and next year) 3M would be fine. I'm curious to see if Engelland gets moved at this year's TDL, he has played well and I see a number of teams that may want him to beef up for playoffs. Get what you can and run.

[jjgallow]

Somebody had a very good game last night...

 

And that somebody is Ortio...

 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090

 

Common Ortio...let's get a few more of these games in a row...

[travel_dude]

Somebody had a very good game last night...

 

And that somebody is Ortio...

 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090

 

Common Ortio...let's get a few more of these games in a row...

 

That is exactly the problem.  Poulin has had runs of a few good games.  Ortio seems like one-and-done.

[darth_henning]

Just looking at those stats that IS exactly the problem 

 

Horrible

Good

Horrible

Good 

Good

Bad

Bad

Good

Bad

Bad

Bad

Great

Great

Bad

Great

Bad

Bad

Great

 

 

The good news is that the good is starting to outweigh the bad, but there is still a distinct lack of consistency. 

 

He can put up multiple games of 0.95+ , but they're every other game essentially.

[rickross]

Funny how we started the year with a logjam at goalie and here we are midway through the season with no true No. 1 goalie lol

[s4xon]

Funny how we started the year with a logjam at goalie and here we are midway through the season with no true No. 1 goalie lol

 

Personally I don't find it funny.  As Flames fans, we were spoiled with the likes of Kipper and rode him into the sunset of his career.  Now we finally see the benefits of having a 1st line center and star scoring winger, and a very capable and skilled top 3 D core, and we're left with a hole in our net. 

 

It's unfortunate really

[rickross]

Personally I don't find it funny. As Flames fans, we were spoiled with the likes of Kipper and rode him into the sunset of his career. Now we finally see the benefits of having a 1st line center and star scoring winger, and a very capable and skilled top 3 D core, and we're left with a hole in our net.

It's unfortunate really

It's going to be fine! Relax and give it time. To be honest I think the benefit is going through the struggle to find that No. 1 goalie. It'll keep our defense honest. Flames relied too heavily on Kipper to steal games. Look at the Montreal situation ...they can't win a game without Price in net. I rather we learn to rely on our D primarily and our goalie as the last resort as it should be in a perfect world! Flames have made efforts by drafting Gillies and Macdonald to eventually fill the hole but I don't mind us going thru the process of learning to appreciate the value of a true No. 1

[MAC331]

It's going to be fine! Relax and give it time. To be honest I think the benefit is going through the struggle to find that No. 1 goalie. It'll keep our defense honest. Flames relied too heavily on Kipper to steal games. Look at the Montreal situation ...they can't win a game without Price in net. I rather we learn to rely on our D primarily and our goalie as the last resort as it should be in a perfect world! Flames have made efforts by drafting Gillies and Macdonald to eventually fill the hole but I don't mind us going thru the process of learning to appreciate the value of a true No. 1

Ask yourself how many outright outstanding goalies are there ? Even Kiprusoff had his faults. I like that we are building a strong defensive group and as we get more responsible forwards the team effort should allow us to stop expecting perfection in our net.

[rickross]

Ask yourself how many outright outstanding goalies are there ? Even Kiprusoff had his faults. I like that we are building a strong defensive group and as we get more responsible forwards the team effort should allow us to stop expecting perfection in our net.

There are a handful of elite tenders in the league. They are hard to come by, in some cases u get lucky and draft a gem. At this point I'm fine with us not having that true no.1 just yet. Like u were saying it's better to have our young D and forward core learn to play 2 way hockey. By the time we do find our No. 1 goalie we could have a defensively responsible core playing with all the confidence knowing their goalie will help us win games here and there. Like I said earlier if we can avoid the Montreal dilemma where they need Price to win every game I'd take that route every time.

[MAC331]

There are a handful of elite tenders in the league. They are hard to come by, in some cases u get lucky and draft a gem. At this point I'm fine with us not having that true no.1 just yet. Like u were saying it's better to have our young D and forward core learn to play 2 way hockey. By the time we do find our No. 1 goalie we could have a defensively responsible core playing with all the confidence knowing their goalie will help us win games here and there. Like I said earlier if we can avoid the Montreal dilemma where they need Price to win every game I'd take that route every time.

To be honest I didn't think Montreal had or has a good team. It took an MVP year for Price to even get them close but because it is Montreal they get the hype. Look how many years it took Price to become a top goalie, years, there was a time there was talk Montreal was going to trade him.