Goaltending

[xstrike]

What do y'all think about going after Keith Kinkaid? He has a $725,000 cap hit for next season so he's not expensive, he wants to be a #1 GK but with Schneider getting a 7 year deal, may be blocked from doing that in NJ. He's 26 so old enough to mature in the pros but not so old as to be an anchor. I think he's on the cusp of breaking into the NHL if only as a backup with potential for more. This might be one of those possible Kipper finds. Don't know what the Devils would want for him, but I'd be interested in a trade.

[JTech780]

Ramo is getting overworked, not having a backup that Hartley trusts means that Ramo is playing too much and his play is suffering for it.

[travel_dude]

Ramo is getting overworked, not having a backup that Hartley trusts means that Ramo is playing too much and his play is suffering for it.

 

I wouldn't really say Ramo lost either game this past weekend.  He was okay against STL, and at least average or better against the Wings.  Three goals caused by a total collapse in our own end.  I doubt a competent backup would have fared any better.

 

Saying that, we need a backup that can be trusted.  Hiller has lost confidence and doesn't appear to have any focus during games.Whether he was sick or not, his only decent starts have been Oct. 10th and 23rd.

[MAC331]

Ramo is getting overworked, not having a backup that Hartley trusts means that Ramo is playing too much and his play is suffering for it.

I agree with this and Hiller should have been in there yesterday, usually back to back days is a good time to give a break.

[cross16]

I don't really agree he is being overworked, nor do I agree it affected his play. Ramo was ok over the weekend, but remeber Ramo is only an OK goalie too.

 

Back to back, followed by 1 more game and then 5 days off I don't think is getting overworked. I think most teams would ride their number one in similar fashion knowing the schedule. I agree he's lost some confidence in HIller but not that much. He did go to him sick in back to back games when they really needed wins. 

[travel_dude]

I agree with this and Hiller should have been in there yesterday, usually back to back days is a good time to give a break.

 

Hate to say this, but if Hiller had started, it would have been 0-3 after 20 minutes and Ramo would be in trying to rally a comeback.

[MAC331]

What do y'all think about going after Keith Kinkaid? He has a $725,000 cap hit for next season so he's not expensive, he wants to be a #1 GK but with Schneider getting a 7 year deal, may be blocked from doing that in NJ. He's 26 so old enough to mature in the pros but not so old as to be an anchor. I think he's on the cusp of breaking into the NHL if only as a backup with potential for more. This might be one of those possible Kipper finds. Don't know what the Devils would want for him, but I'd be interested in a trade.

Put him on the list as I don't think the Flames should leave any rock unturned. NJ will or should be looking for some youth by next season.

[travel_dude]

Read this article (use Google translate) https://t.co/bQHmFpFfXC

 

BT seems to be talking a bit about Bishop for next year, but it was just a passing comment.  Likely depends on cost, but he may have had discussions already.

[cross16]

Bishop I think is the best target and I do think will come available if the LIghtning re sign STamkos. If the LIghtning don't sign Stamkos then I don't think you will see Bishop become available because they cap won't be an issue for them with Stamkos' 7 mill off the books. 

 

Cost will be high but goalies don't tend to be traded at a super high premium as it is so while I agree it would be high I don't think it would be that high. Probably require giving up their 1st rounder+ another piece which I would do for Bishop. 

[Carty]

From Bruce Garrioch:   http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/12/19/penguins-looking-for-a-way-to-turn-around-their-fortunes?token=22c731ab29beb73b22d0da52c3ba5fec

 

[MAC331]

Hate to say this, but if Hiller had started, it would have been 0-3 after 20 minutes and Ramo would be in trying to rally a comeback.

Yeah so, it would have rested Ramo but I guess he can do that over the holidays. I don't favor just parking players on the bench.

[travel_dude]

Yeah so, it would have rested Ramo but I guess he can do that over the holidays. I don't favor just parking players on the bench.

 

Some of it may be going with the hotter hand, but it may come down to what the goalie coach sees in practice or things in-game that aren't being corrected.

 

A more devious reason could be keeping Hiller away from games, so as not to have him injured prior to a trade.  The Flames have been in a trade freeze for over a week now.  If this was the case, then it's a trade for Bernier, and it will happen in very early January.  

[MAC331]

Some of it may be going with the hotter hand, but it may come down to what the goalie coach sees in practice or things in-game that aren't being corrected.

 

A more devious reason could be keeping Hiller away from games, so as not to have him injured prior to a trade.  The Flames have been in a trade freeze for over a week now.  If this was the case, then it's a trade for Bernier, and it will happen in very early January.  

If you were TOR would you do a Hiller for Bernier deal ? same day different _ _ _ _ scenario and we get the privilege of another year of Bernier. Very Risky proposition.

[robrob1974]

If you were TOR would you do a Hiller for Bernier deal ? same day different _ _ _ _ scenario and we get the privilege of another year of Bernier. Very Risky proposition.

 

If I were Toronto and felt that Bernier wasn't the goalie going forward then yes. At the end of the year Hiller's deal is off the books while if they're done with Bernier then Calgary ends up eating that year that Toronto doesn't want anymore. 

Pat Steinberg thought that Calgary would need to add to the trade, but I think if Toronto isn't interested in Bernier anymore, we're the ones actually doing them a favour by taking him off next year's books and they're buying 4M+ in cap space.

Bishop I think is the best target and I do think will come available if the LIghtning re sign STamkos. If the LIghtning don't sign Stamkos then I don't think you will see Bishop become available because they cap won't be an issue for them with Stamkos' 7 mill off the books. 

 

Cost will be high but goalies don't tend to be traded at a super high premium as it is so while I agree it would be high I don't think it would be that high. Probably require giving up their 1st rounder+ another piece which I would do for Bishop. 

 

For some reason I don't see Tampa re-signing Stamkos. For me, it's mostly because of his play in the playoffs last year. He was pretty non-existent for the most part. I bet they use him as a piece to get that players to try get them over the hump in this year's playoffs.

[travel_dude]

If you were TOR would you do a Hiller for Bernier deal ? same day different _ _ _ _ scenario and we get the privilege of another year of Bernier. Very Risky proposition.

 

Toronto would do the deal in a moment.  They have come to the end of their rope.  Hiller is a short term deal that they can let go, or re-sign him if he becomes the man.  

 

Every trade or goalie signing has an element of risk.  Going into the summer with no goalies signed is huge.  What if the guy you want get a deal elsewhere.  What if there is nothing but backups available.  We don't even have Ortio signed.  

[MAC331]

Toronto would do the deal in a moment.  They have come to the end of their rope.  Hiller is a short term deal that they can let go, or re-sign him if he becomes the man.  

 

Every trade or goalie signing has an element of risk.  Going into the summer with no goalies signed is huge.  What if the guy you want get a deal elsewhere.  What if there is nothing but backups available.  We don't even have Ortio signed.  

That is true, we are basically starting from scratch at season's end. Unfortunately he had a great game on the weekend, whether that changed their mind or not who knows.

[cross16]

I think if it were as easy as HIller for Bernier that deal would be done by now. I don't think its that easy but if I'm the Leafs i'm looking at the deal and saying i'm gonig to get fired if this doens't work. That is the type of deal that gets you fired if you make it and Bernier regains his form. They would at least need 1 piece that they can hang on to for the future so if Bernier came to Calgary and figured it out they can still say well at least we got this guy for him. 

 

You would have to add another piece. I don't think it would be much may a B level prospect or 4th round pick and later but you would have to add. For HIller straight across, Leafs would be better to keep working with Bernier than to give him away. 

 

I'm not really concerend about having no goalies signed. We are coming up on a surplus of goalies again and if you look between the free agent market and potentiall trade opporutnities there are countless amount of options. Sure you would love to have an answer, but no need to rush into a bad deal just becuaes there is no one else signed. 

[travel_dude]

I think if it were as easy as HIller for Bernier that deal would be done by now. I don't think its that easy but if I'm the Leafs i'm looking at the deal and saying i'm gonig to get fired if this doens't work. That is the type of deal that gets you fired if you make it and Bernier regains his form. They would at least need 1 piece that they can hang on to for the future so if Bernier came to Calgary and figured it out they can still say well at least we got this guy for him. 

 

You would have to add another piece. I don't think it would be much may a B level prospect or 4th round pick and later but you would have to add. For HIller straight across, Leafs would be better to keep working with Bernier than to give him away. 

 

I'm not really concerend about having no goalies signed. We are coming up on a surplus of goalies again and if you look between the free agent market and potentiall trade opporutnities there are countless amount of options. Sure you would love to have an answer, but no need to rush into a bad deal just becuaes there is no one else signed. 

 

Optics would suggest this to be true.

 

It is really clearing cap from their books for next year, so it isn't a firing offense.  To offset the "perceived" loss, I could suggest that it be Hiller/Jooris for Bernier/Marincin.  Marincin's trade allows them to use Corrado.  Marincin is a throw away if he doesn't work for us.

[JTech780]

Optics would suggest this to be true.

It is really clearing cap from their books for next year, so it isn't a firing offense. To offset the "perceived" loss, I could suggest that it be Hiller/Jooris for Bernier/Marincin. Marincin's trade allows them to use Corrado. Marincin is a throw away if he doesn't work for us.

The only way the cap is an issue for the Leafs next year is if they sign Stamkos. I think they hold onto Bernier till that happens.

I think you have to drop Marincin from your trade and then I think it might work. Right now Marincin has more value based on potential than Jooris, who was a great story last year but at this point is a borderline NHLer.

[travel_dude]

The only way the cap is an issue for the Leafs next year is if they sign Stamkos. I think they hold onto Bernier till that happens.

I think you have to drop Marincin from your trade and then I think it might work. Right now Marincin has more value based on potential than Jooris, who was a great story last year but at this point is a borderline NHLer.

 

I don't know what potential Marincin has.  He had one good season in the AHL, and has 1g 10a in 105 NHL games.  Jooris plays mostly in a shutdown role now.  Neither is top end talent, but I would put the current value of Jooris over Marincin.  20 games as a Leaf and no points.  

 

I don't see the Leafs holding onto Bernier once Reimer is back.  They have two other guys that can backup Reimer.  Clearing a contract now means there is one less impediment to making big moves this summer.  

[cross16]

I don't know what potential Marincin has.  He had one good season in the AHL, and has 1g 10a in 105 NHL games.  Jooris plays mostly in a shutdown role now.  Neither is top end talent, but I would put the current value of Jooris over Marincin.  20 games as a Leaf and no points.  

 

I don't see the Leafs holding onto Bernier once Reimer is back.  They have two other guys that can backup Reimer.  Clearing a contract now means there is one less impediment to making big moves this summer.  

 

Maricin > Jooris based on potential and position. both are barely NHL players but Maricin has top 6 D upside where Jooris is basiclaly a 4th liner. I have a feeling that outside of Calgary Jooris has basically zero value. Flames fans overrate him becuase he had a good year last year and surprised us all by making the team but I think objectively he doesn't really have trade value. Woudln't play on most teams in the NHL IMO. 

 

I think it depends on the offers. If the league is offering the Leafs nothing but crap, like HIller, for Bernier I think they hold onto him and see if they can help him figure this out. I mean is his trade value is crap now it will be crap in the offseason too so there really is no need for the Leafs to move Bernier. I think they only move him if they can at least something salvagable for him. 

 

Remember, Reimer is a UFA and with how that organization has treated him it woudln't shock me at all if he has already told him he won't re sign. They may not be in a rush to trade Bernier as they may need him. 

[travel_dude]

Maricin > Jooris based on potential and position. both are barely NHL players but Maricin has top 6 D upside where Jooris is basiclaly a 4th liner. I have a feeling that outside of Calgary Jooris has basically zero value. Flames fans overrate him becuase he had a good year last year and surprised us all by making the team but I think objectively he doesn't really have trade value. Woudln't play on most teams in the NHL IMO. 

 

I think it depends on the offers. If the league is offering the Leafs nothing but crap, like HIller, for Bernier I think they hold onto him and see if they can help him figure this out. I mean is his trade value is crap now it will be crap in the offseason too so there really is no need for the Leafs to move Bernier. I think they only move him if they can at least something salvagable for him. 

 

Remember, Reimer is a UFA and with how that organization has treated him it woudln't shock me at all if he has already told him he won't re sign. They may not be in a rush to trade Bernier as they may need him. 

 

Babcock has been pretty frank when discussing Bernier.  I can't see them helping to work through his struggles.  Reimer has been treated like crap at times, but a new sheriff is in town, and they have gone to Reimer a lot.  I don't know that he signs elsewhere.

 

Hiller and Bernier both need a change.  A goalie for goalie change is a reasonable risk to each team, with Toronto clearing a contract for next year.  Not a huge PR nightmare.  Worse case is they waive him to end the season.  Best case is they have a winner for this season.

[Dmac1103]

The only issue I have with trading for Bernier, Bishop or another goalie of the same age is the fact that we are still rebuilding and I don't want to become the Oilers in a few years. If you look at their goaltending history after guys like Andy Moog and Grant Fuhr were gone they tried to keep winning by trading or signing similar aged goalies. Goalies tend to last until around 32 (just did a little comparison) then they start to lose what they had. So we would have a solid 4-5 years with these guys in the hopes that we have a back up plan with McDonald or Gillies but if one or both do not pan out we could end up in goalie hell. I was not a big fan of them signing Hiller, I wanted to see them go after a younger goalie. If you want to look at a successful team look at Detroit, Osgood took over for Vernon, Howard took over for Osgood and now it looks like Mrazek will be replacing Howard. So since 96-97 they have had 2 clear cut starters in Howard and Osgood with backups being either the next in line or a inexpensive vet. I would rather see them go after a younger goalie that may give us a chance at having a starter for the next 10 years, guys like a Vasilevskiy, Gudlevskis, Fucale or Campbell and pair them with Ramo for the next 2-3 years then they become a full time starter and Gillies or McDonald can back up and be in line to take over (Although that would be hard for Gillies because of his age already). Will this idea work better than going after a Bernier maybe or maybe not but for me rebuilding means at all positions, we have the young Forwards we need to move forward and a good mix of young D but still a ? on the future of our goaltending.

[MAC331]

The only issue I have with trading for Bernier, Bishop or another goalie of the same age is the fact that we are still rebuilding and I don't want to become the Oilers in a few years. If you look at their goaltending history after guys like Andy Moog and Grant Fuhr were gone they tried to keep winning by trading or signing similar aged goalies. Goalies tend to last until around 32 (just did a little comparison) then they start to lose what they had. So we would have a solid 4-5 years with these guys in the hopes that we have a back up plan with McDonald or Gillies but if one or both do not pan out we could end up in goalie hell. I was not a big fan of them signing Hiller, I wanted to see them go after a younger goalie. If you want to look at a successful team look at Detroit, Osgood took over for Vernon, Howard took over for Osgood and now it looks like Mrazek will be replacing Howard. So since 96-97 they have had 2 clear cut starters in Howard and Osgood with backups being either the next in line or a inexpensive vet. I would rather see them go after a younger goalie that may give us a chance at having a starter for the next 10 years, guys like a Vasilevskiy, Gudlevskis, Fucale or Campbell and pair them with Ramo for the next 2-3 years then they become a full time starter and Gillies or McDonald can back up and be in line to take over (Although that would be hard for Gillies because of his age already). Will this idea work better than going after a Bernier maybe or maybe not but for me rebuilding means at all positions, we have the young Forwards we need to move forward and a good mix of young D but still a ? on the future of our goaltending.

You have to have the right opportunity to present itself when it comes to trades, also you have to be careful what you give up. Hiller provided us with a veteran for some stability in net while we commenced the rebuild. he was a FA that we didn't have to give up any good pieces to obtain.

Hiller and Ramo have provided average goaltending and I don't think anyone will dispute maintaining the hunt for a better answer.

[Dmac1103]

You have to have the right opportunity to present itself when it comes to trades, also you have to be careful what you give up. Hiller provided us with a veteran for some stability in net while we commenced the rebuild. he was a FA that we didn't have to give up any good pieces to obtain.

Hiller and Ramo have provided average goaltending and I don't think anyone will dispute maintaining the hunt for a better answer.

I agree that it has to be the right opportunity and not to jump on someone because of stats or status according to scouts. Hiller did provide that and I reread my post and should have clarified that when I meant younger I meant someone that we could have got more than 2 years out of. Of course a lot of us believed the Orito could become that #1 goalie, which is maybe why Hiller was brought in to bridge that gap until he was ready, but I think we all see now that he is the same goalie we saw in the beginning no consistency. We have 2 young prospects in Gilles and McDonald that are unknown at this point (If Gilles wasn't injured it would have made things easier), Orito is a backup at best but probably headed over seas soon and Ramo and Hiller are not the future. If Bishop and Bernier had longer at least 3-4 more years I would be more comfortable with bringing them in on a trade at the right price but both have 1 year left after this year and are going to be expensive to resign. I would love to pluck Vasilevskiy from Tampa but they need $ and unless we take on another bad contract that won't happen (all the bad contracts have at least 2 + years left). Another option is Grubauer out of Washington, which may be easier with Washington having the Future #1 in the system in Ilya Samsonov but again it may cost more than I would like to see.