Goaltending

[conundrumed]

And any dealer

 

Any motivational coach will tell you it is mostly finding the right button to press to coach the intensity.

 

As for a goalie with a chip on his shoulder??? why is this a big concern. Kipper was awesome yet had no chip on his shoulder....

Sure find a good character goalie that hates to lose.....

 

Chip on shoulder.. no so important...

If that were true DD, it would be easier to get a read, just take the guy with the most sound mechanics.

[Jessemadnote39]

I'll let the very knowledgeable Kent Wilson take preface this thread with some background info:

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/12/6/10-options-for-the-flames-in-net

I know the Flames need to work on their defensive coverage. I know they have some good looking prospects, but I seriously believe we need a new goaltender to step up for us over the next 3-5 years. What do you guys think about the options from that article or perhaps looking at some other targets? 

 

My ideal candidates to start next season would be Bernier (who just rattled off 3 straight shutouts in the AHL) and Raanta.

 

Here's how I would approach: 

 

Trade Deadline: Hiller and Wotherspoon for Bernier, Toronto gets rid of a 4M cap hit next year and acquires a decent defensive prospect that Calgary is no longer high on. 

 

Free Agency: Sign Raanta for 1.5M 

 

I feel like this would be a good combo moving forward. I like the way Bernier has responded to the "conditioning stint" 

 

Other options I wouldn't mind investigating Varlamov, Bishop, or Anderson. 

 

Thoughts?

[darth_henning]

I think its too early to write off Ortio as having a future with the club. Maybe not as a starter, but in some roll. No he didn't play well before being sent down, but with what, 3 games in a year? I don't think any goalie will play well. 

 

With more consistent starts since being sent down he's looking good again. 

 

That said, we still need a #1 or 1a depending how Ortio looks next year (or later this year).

 

Ramo is serviceable, but league average. Varlamov or Anderson would be my preferences to target this off-season.

[JTech780]

Bishop would be my first choice, but he would be pricey to acquire. It is really starting to look like Tampa won't be able to re-sign Stamkos so they won't need to shed Bishop's salary.

 

I think Varlamov would be a solid pick up and I don't think he would cost that much to acquire.

 

Howard would could be another ok option, he would be the cheapest option, but he is on the downside of his career.

 

I would be surprised if Anaheim traded Andersen and if they did it wouldn't be within the division.

 

Bernier isn't the answer he is just another Hiller or Ramo.

 

As far as UFA goalies the only 2 I would be interested in are James Reimer and Al Montoya.

[daveinoman]

I'll let the very knowledgeable Kent Wilson take preface this thread with some background info:

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/12/6/10-options-for-the-flames-in-net

I know the Flames need to work on their defensive coverage. I know they have some good looking prospects, but I seriously believe we need a new goaltender to step up for us over the next 3-5 years. What do you guys think about the options from that article or perhaps looking at some other targets? 

 

My ideal candidates to start next season would be Bernier (who just rattled off 3 straight shutouts in the AHL) and Raanta.

 

Here's how I would approach: 

 

Trade Deadline: Hiller and Wotherspoon for Bernier, Toronto gets rid of a 4M cap hit next year and acquires a decent defensive prospect that Calgary is no longer high on. 

 

Free Agency: Sign Raanta for 1.5M 

 

I like your suggestions. Another one might be have a private eye scot follow the Montreal Canadiens. It is amazing how the Habs find good goal-tending. The bottom line is, the Flames are improving but we have to find goaltenders.

[tincup1]

Hiller's next start should be in Stockton.  Last night he was almost the difference and not in a good way.  Ortio should be good enough to back up Ramo. 

[Jessemadnote39]

I would say Bernier is a cut above Ramo and Hiller. As a matter of fact I'd say he could be the next Tuuka Rask, getting away from headlines that talk about how much he ate before the game or some nonsense and able to focus again.

Calgary is still tough on players psyches, but it could be a nice cheap short term experiment with upside. He's shown the ability to steal games and he's still a young man with upside.

The biggest issue would be clearing up the crease for him to come over. Too bad the draft lottery rules changed.

[kehatch]

Not happy with Hiller, but Ortio hasn't been great in Adirondack either. He ne do to play himself back into the NHL.

[JTech780]

Not happy with Hiller, but Ortio hasn't been great in Adirondack either. He ne do to play himself back into the NHL.

I agree, Hiller has been bad, but Ortio has been putting similar numbers to Hiller but in the AHL.

He might turn it around but he needs to play games in the AHL first, I wouldn't even think of bringing him up this season unless there is an injury.

[MAC331]

I'll let the very knowledgeable Kent Wilson take preface this thread with some background info:

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/12/6/10-options-for-the-flames-in-net

I know the Flames need to work on their defensive coverage. I know they have some good looking prospects, but I seriously believe we need a new goaltender to step up for us over the next 3-5 years. What do you guys think about the options from that article or perhaps looking at some other targets? 

 

My ideal candidates to start next season would be Bernier (who just rattled off 3 straight shutouts in the AHL) and Raanta.

 

Here's how I would approach: 

 

Trade Deadline: Hiller and Wotherspoon for Bernier, Toronto gets rid of a 4M cap hit next year and acquires a decent defensive prospect that Calgary is no longer high on. 

 

Free Agency: Sign Raanta for 1.5M 

 

I feel like this would be a good combo moving forward. I like the way Bernier has responded to the "conditioning stint" 

 

Other options I wouldn't mind investigating Varlamov, Bishop, or Anderson. 

 

Thoughts?

I actually like some of what I saw from Raanta in last night's game. I don't think we need to go for both Bernier and Raanta, one would do us.

[Cowtownguy]

Teams that consistently draft well and develop their own talent are much more successful over the long term than those that try and trade themselves out of the craters they create. Chicago and Detroit seem to be much better at drafting and developing than are the Flames. We drafted and developed Vernon and Kidd, but few other goaltenders became successful. I don't know what we need to do to improve this situation apart from obtaining the right coaches. You never know who is the right coach for years. Do we have this talent now? I just don't know and I doubt anyone else really knows for sure either.

 

We might be able to trade our way out of this situation. Right now, few teams are trading much at all and I highly doubt that there is another hidden gem like Kiprusoff out there. By that, I mean we are not going to give away nothing and obtain that kind of greatness again. To obtain a Kiprusoff, we need to give away Johnny G, Monahan, or Bennett. I am not in favour of moving any of these assets. I would be willing to trade a first pick for a Schneider if there was a Schneider out there and a team with two solid goaltenders willing to make such a trade.

 

We can obtain a Bernier and hope for the best, or get some other good (but not excellent) goalie. We will pay for that person and with the major defensive mistakes that we are still making, I am not sure the "improved" tender will make up for the asset loss. As well, sometimes a great goaltender just masks errors that the rest of the team makes. I believe Crawford is not a #1 goalie and that the 'hawks keep him to place emphasis on other parts of their game.

 

I am in favour of letting Ortio develop rather than rushing the whole process and ruining this talent as we have done in the past. Nobody can declare what he is until we have a full body of work to assess. That body of work cannot be done until the time is right which is just not now. Who cares about the playoffs when we are not going to contend for anything if we make it to that point anyways? Losing assets during a rebuild for a playoff birth everyone knows will go nowhere is not logical. A rebuild is unattractive precisely because it means you have to be patient while acquiring players through the draft for years.

 

Ortio and Gillies are the future and we need to let this play out. Hiller got us to the playoffs last year and he is clearly struggling this year. You don't just dump a guy like that when he had a poor start, an injury, and then the flu. What does that say to the team? What kind of chemistry and character can possibly be developed when a team's motto is "nothing given, everything earned" and the reality is more like "what have you done for me lately"? They are two mutually exclusive philosophies. 

[travel_dude]

I agree, Hiller has been bad, but Ortio has been putting similar numbers to Hiller but in the AHL.

He might turn it around but he needs to play games in the AHL first, I wouldn't even think of bringing him up this season unless there is an injury.

 

Both are a concern right now.  As much as I hate to do it, I would suggest we trade or demote Hiller, contingent on another goalie being signed.  A proper backup or a real #1.  That is the only way forward this season.  Do it now while Bernier is still on a stint and Toronto is still questioning their goalie situation.  Or do it where teams have multiple options.

[travel_dude]

I'll let the very knowledgeable Kent Wilson take preface this thread with some background info:

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/12/6/10-options-for-the-flames-in-net

I know the Flames need to work on their defensive coverage. I know they have some good looking prospects, but I seriously believe we need a new goaltender to step up for us over the next 3-5 years. What do you guys think about the options from that article or perhaps looking at some other targets? 

 

My ideal candidates to start next season would be Bernier (who just rattled off 3 straight shutouts in the AHL) and Raanta.

 

Here's how I would approach: 

 

Trade Deadline: Hiller and Wotherspoon for Bernier, Toronto gets rid of a 4M cap hit next year and acquires a decent defensive prospect that Calgary is no longer high on. 

 

Free Agency: Sign Raanta for 1.5M 

 

I feel like this would be a good combo moving forward. I like the way Bernier has responded to the "conditioning stint" 

 

Other options I wouldn't mind investigating Varlamov, Bishop, or Anderson. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Next season is next season.  I am loathe to wait till then to solve it.  There are legit things we can do right now to improve, and it involves moving Hiller.  At the very least, we should waive him.  He isn't even the short-term answer anymore.

 

Make the move now to improve.  Evaluate the rest of the season with Ramo any whomever.  Look for a permanent solution in the summer; that may include the whomever.

[travel_dude]

.......

 

I am in favour of letting Ortio develop rather than rushing the whole process and ruining this talent as we have done in the past. Nobody can declare what he is until we have a full body of work to assess. That body of work cannot be done until the time is right which is just not now. Who cares about the playoffs when we are not going to contend for anything if we make it to that point anyways? Losing assets during a rebuild for a playoff birth everyone knows will go nowhere is not logical. A rebuild is unattractive precisely because it means you have to be patient while acquiring players through the draft for years.

 

Ortio and Gillies are the future and we need to let this play out. Hiller got us to the playoffs last year and he is clearly struggling this year. You don't just dump a guy like that when he had a poor start, an injury, and then the flu. What does that say to the team? What kind of chemistry and character can possibly be developed when a team's motto is "nothing given, everything earned" and the reality is more like "what have you done for me lately"? They are two mutually exclusive philosophies. 

 

There is no proof that Ortio can ever be an NHL goalie.  Many goalies have done equal to him with NHL games.  Maybe he didn't get a real chance this year, but he isn't helping his cause with inconsistent play in the AHL.  We have spent this much time on him, so we can ride it out with him in the AHL this year.  He may even get another injury callup.  He has had up and down years in the AHL, so I am not that confident that he is going to make the translation to the NHL.  Gillies is another story.  He has the size needed.  He is athletic and technically sound.  Ortio has 2/3.

[conundrumed]

I've been trying to stay confident with Hiller, but last night was like a dagger. After he flubbed the puckhandling for the 2nd goal, my confidence shrivelled to "you're going to blow this aren't you"...yes he did.

I realize he's battling the flu so I'm going to try to remain loyal.

But for the love of gawd, he has to lose the body language EVERY TIME HE GIVES UP A GOAL. That language is total DEFEAT.

If I'm the opposing coach, I'm saying, "shoot from everywhere, he's rattled".

He has to snap out of it and keep confident, because I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing that miserable body language.

We need attitude back there. I rarely remember Kipper's expression changing at all whether it was a goal against or spectacular save.

With Hiller, you can almost see the balloon deflate, every flipping goal.

He has to cut that out! Coaches, drill it into him!!

[Jessemadnote39]

I actually like some of what I saw from Raanta in last night's game. I don't think we need to go for both Bernier and Raanta, one would do us.

I think we need 2 quality goalies. If both these guys could be had for a decent price, why not hedge our bets?

Next season is next season. I am loathe to wait till then to solve it. There are legit things we can do right now to improve, and it involves moving Hiller. At the very least, we should waive him. He isn't even the short-term answer anymore.

Make the move now to improve. Evaluate the rest of the season with Ramo any whomever. Look for a permanent solution in the summer; that may include the whomever.

I don't think waiving him without a replacement is a good plan. He is way below his career avg and his numbers will stabilize big time. Ortio on the other hand has never demonstrated an ability to save .915 of pucks at the NHL level.

[JTech780]

I think we need 2 quality goalies. If both these guys could be had for a decent price, why not hedge our bets?

 

We would have the shortest goaltending duo in the league. I am pretty sure both guys are barely 6' tall.

[Jessemadnote39]

It's very true to say that the flames need to improve their drafting and development of goalies, but right now they don't have that time. They have a very strong core and the window will open in about 3 years for about 5 or 6 years. Maybe Gillies is ready by that time or maybe he's still not as good is Bernier, Varlamov etc.

Ortio needs to step up his game as it has taken a nosedive in the most crucial year. Thos includes his AHL play.

[travel_dude]

I think we need 2 quality goalies. If both these guys could be had for a decent price, why not hedge our bets?

I don't think waiving him without a replacement is a good plan. He is way below his career avg and his numbers will stabilize big time. Ortio on the other hand has never demonstrated an ability to save .915 of pucks at the NHL level.

 

I don't recall saying that you waive Hiller without having a replacement.  I said make a move and waive Hiller.  Ortio is not the answer this year, and possibly never.

[JTech780]

If we don't want to end up like Edmonton we push for a proven number 1 even if means giving up something we would rather not give up. I am not in favor of taking a chance on guys like Bernier or Raanta and hope that they become number 1's. If Bishop, Varlamov or Andersen become available we would be stupid not to acquire one of them.

 

Ortio is a long shot to become a starter, he had one good year in the AHL, an ok year in the AHL, and played decent in a handfull of games in the NHL. I haven't seen anything from him to date to suggest he is an NHL starter.

 

Gillies is at least 3 years away from being a starter probably 4 or more after his injury.

 

We can't just waste 3-4 years of Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie while we wait for a goalie.

[kehatch]

If we don't want to end up like Edmonton we push for a proven number 1 even if means giving up something we would rather not give up. I am not in favor of taking a chance on guys like Bernier or Raanta and hope that they become number 1's. If Bishop, Varlamov or Andersen become available we would be stupid not to acquire one of them.

 

Ortio is a long shot to become a starter, he had one good year in the AHL, an ok year in the AHL, and played decent in a handfull of games in the NHL. I haven't seen anything from him to date to suggest he is an NHL starter.

 

Gillies is at least 3 years away from being a starter probably 4 or more after his injury.

 

We can't just waste 3-4 years of Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie while we wait for a goalie.

 

Agreed.  Besides, goalies are generally not that expensive to acquire given the limited market.  

[travel_dude]

If we don't want to end up like Edmonton we push for a proven number 1 even if means giving up something we would rather not give up. I am not in favor of taking a chance on guys like Bernier or Raanta and hope that they become number 1's. If Bishop, Varlamov or Andersen become available we would be stupid not to acquire one of them.

 

Ortio is a long shot to become a starter, he had one good year in the AHL, an ok year in the AHL, and played decent in a handfull of games in the NHL. I haven't seen anything from him to date to suggest he is an NHL starter.

 

Gillies is at least 3 years away from being a starter probably 4 or more after his injury.

 

We can't just waste 3-4 years of Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie while we wait for a goalie.

 

Those three would be my preference.  If none are available until the off-season, then I would prefer to do something about Hiller right TF now.  The hockey gods have given us an opportunity to make the post-season if we have good enough goalies to get there.

Bernier doesn't solve the long-term problem, but gets us away from Hiller's play.  

[JTech780]

Those three would be my preference. If none are available until the off-season, then I would prefer to do something about Hiller right TF now. The hockey gods have given us an opportunity to make the post-season if we have good enough goalies to get there.

Bernier doesn't solve the long-term problem, but gets us away from Hiller's play.

The problem with Bernier is if he doesn't turn it around then we are stuck with his $4.5mill next year.

If we are looking for a short term answer I would rather a cheaper goalie or a pending UFA. Just so we can keep our options open for a true number 1 in the off-season.

[travel_dude]

The problem with Bernier is if he doesn't turn it around then we are stuck with his $4.5mill next year.

If we are looking for a short term answer I would rather a cheaper goalie or a pending UFA. Just so we can keep our options open for a true number 1 in the off-season.

 

At worst, we have to buy his final season out.  $2.7m retained for 2016/17 and $716k for 2017/18,  Not great, but a calculated risk. The upside is we have a starter signed through next season.  

[DirtyDeeds]

............. 

I believe Crawford is not a #1 goalie and that the 'hawks keep him to place emphasis on other parts of their game.

 

..........

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would think his 2 Stanley Cup Rings would tell even the most novice hockey fan that he is at the very least a good starter on any team.