Goaltending

[DirtyDeeds]

[Cowtownguy]

I would rather have a top tier goalie than not, but sometimes great tending can be problematic. I believe that Kipper played so well for us at times that it masked a lot of other problems we were having. Kipper worked his butt off at times when many of the other players were "romanticizing" the pooch.

[JTech780]

I would rather have a top tier goalie than not, but sometimes great tending can be problematic. I believe that Kipper played so well for us at times that it masked a lot of other problems we were having. Kipper worked his butt off at times when many of the other players were "romanticizing" the pooch.

I wish we had the type of goaltending that would mask our problems.

[travel_dude]

I wish we had the type of goaltending that would mask our problems.

 

Kipper-esque goaltending last year would have brought us to at least the 3rd round.  This year, we probably would be over 500.

[cross16]

I would rather have a top tier goalie than not, but sometimes great tending can be problematic. I believe that Kipper played so well for us at times that it masked a lot of other problems we were having. Kipper worked his butt off at times when many of the other players were "romanticizing" the pooch.

 

Thats the exact reason you acquire a number one goalie.

 

I've never understood this argument that we shouldn't want/need/acquire a number 1 goalie or Kipper like goalie becuase it will "mask" problems. Sure if the team burries their head in the sand and doens't acknowledge there are issues (very rare BTW) then I would see it as a negative but I fail to see what is so bad about having a great goalie. Mistakes are always going to happen so if you can have someone who bails you out every now and then its does wonders for the team. If you have to constantly play scared because every mistake winds up in your net (see the 2015-2016 Calgary Flames) its extremely problematic.

[travel_dude]

Thats the exact reason you acquire a number one goalie.

 

I've never understood this argument that we shouldn't want/need/acquire a number 1 goalie or Kipper like goalie becuase it will "mask" problems. Sure if the team burries their head in the sand and doens't acknowledge there are issues (very rare BTW) then I would see it as a negative but I fail to see what is so bad about having a great goalie. Mistakes are always going to happen so if you can have someone who bails you out every now and then its does wonders for the team. If you have to constantly play scared because every mistake winds up in your net (see the 2015-2016 Calgary Flames) its extremely problematic.

 

Has anyone actually ever said that?  I thought the concept was that Kipper masked the problems of the Flames.  Having him here after the cup run convinced some that the team was constructed correctly.

 

Good teams are built from the net out.  We have steps 2 (top 3 defense - mostly covered) and step 3 (top 6, secondary scoring - mostly covered) but forgot about step 1.  Ramo and Hiller were attempts to have competent goaltending.  League average is all we could ever have hoped for with them.  Having a Kipper now would give the defense some more confidence, and turn Russell into something other than a backup goalie with a bad first pass.

[kehatch]

Ramo starts again tonight. Ridiculous.

[cross16]

Has anyone actually ever said that?  I thought the concept was that Kipper masked the problems of the Flames.  Having him here after the cup run convinced some that the team was constructed correctly.

 

Good teams are built from the net out.  We have steps 2 (top 3 defense - mostly covered) and step 3 (top 6, secondary scoring - mostly covered) but forgot about step 1.  Ramo and Hiller were attempts to have competent goaltending.  League average is all we could ever have hoped for with them.  Having a Kipper now would give the defense some more confidence, and turn Russell into something other than a backup goalie with a bad first pass.

 

Not in so many words but i jsut remember the general pulse towards the end of the Kipper regime was all he did was mask problems and then someone having a great goalie was a problem and not a benefit. I don't think anyone was convinced the team was constructed properly or heading in the right direction I would argue the opposite. It was genrally believed that without Kipper during the Brent Sutter years the Flames likely would have been picking in the lottery every year instead of the 10-15 range.

 

Maybe i'm mixing up peoples opinions becuse I know another one is "you don't need a great goalie" and thats actual one I agree with. However, just based on hoe people reacted to Kipper's last few years here it seems to be that some people would argue that a great goalie is more of a detriment then a blessing and I can't agree with that.

Ramo starts again tonight. Ridiculous.

 

I don't know if ridiculous is fair.

 

Thats a really, really tough call for Hartley. This team needs wins in the worst way and he has to pick between a guy who he likes, is playing well but could be tired and a goalie who is cold and he doesn't trust (can't blame him for that either IMO) but could be fresh...

 

Super tough call for a coach IMO. I was even really torn thinking about it and if it were me I probably would have gone Ramo too. I think he gives you the best chance to win. But, I will agree that how the Flames have handled Ortio this year is a bit ridiculous but that to me is more on Trelving then it is Hartley. Ortio should not be in the NHL he should be in the AHL playing.

[travel_dude]

Not in so many words but i jsut remember the general pulse towards the end of the Kipper regime was all he did was mask problems and then someone having a great goalie was a problem and not a benefit. I don't think anyone was convinced the team was constructed properly or heading in the right direction I would argue the opposite. It was genrally believed that without Kipper during the Brent Sutter years the Flames likely would have been picking in the lottery every year instead of the 10-15 range.

 

Maybe i'm mixing up peoples opinions becuse I know another one is "you don't need a great goalie" and thats actual one I agree with. However, just based on hoe people reacted to Kipper's last few years here it seems to be that some people would argue that a great goalie is more of a detriment then a blessing and I can't agree with that.

 

I don't know if ridiculous is fair.

 

Thats a really, really tough call for Hartley. This team needs wins in the worst way and he has to pick between a guy who he likes, is playing well but could be tired and a goalie who is cold and he doesn't trust (can't blame him for that either IMO) but could be fresh...

 

Super tough call for a coach IMO. I was even really torn thinking about it and if it were me I probably would have gone Ramo too. I think he gives you the best chance to win. But, I will agree that how the Flames have handled Ortio this year is a bit ridiculous but that to me is more on Trelving then it is Hartley. Ortio should not be in the NHL he should be in the AHL playing.

 

The mistake was starting Ramo yesterday.  You can't start a "questionable results" goalie after a loss or on the back half of a B2B with a tired team in front.  Since they started Ramo yesterday and he was better than just good in a loss, you have to go back to him.

We need a win now, and asking a guy to come in cold against a high-octane team is asking a lot.

[DirtyDeeds]

Has anyone actually ever said that?  I thought the concept was that Kipper masked the problems of the Flames.  Having him here after the cup run convinced some that the team was constructed correctly.

 

Good teams are built from the net out.  We have steps 2 (top 3 defense - mostly covered) and step 3 (top 6, secondary scoring - mostly covered) but forgot about step 1.  Ramo and Hiller were attempts to have competent goaltending.  League average is all we could ever have hoped for with them.  Having a Kipper now would give the defense some more confidence, and turn Russell into something other than a backup goalie with a bad first pass.

I have never heard anyone say this until that Interview with Lanny.

 

The final year Kipper was playing, it was obvious when we still had Iggy and JBo, that Kipper made us appear a better team than we were but "good hockey people" should be able to see past this and see the deficiencies. 

[The_People1]

Ramo starts again tonight. Ridiculous.

 

The way things are going, the playoffs will be realistically out of reach by December.  You will get your wish and Ortio will get a lot of starts.  Right now, we need to win.

[travel_dude]

I have never heard anyone say this until that Interview with Lanny.

 

The final year Kipper was playing, it was obvious when we still had Iggy and JBo, that Kipper made us appear a better team than we were but "good hockey people" should be able to see past this and see the deficiencies. 

 

I think it was more the analysts that said this.  

 

But you have to admit that Feaster kept together a group that had basically been lucky enough to get as many wins as they did.  He said he felt the team could perform and put his trust to do so.    

[kehatch]

The way things are going, the playoffs will be realistically out of reach by December. You will get your wish and Ortio will get a lot of starts. Right now, we need to win.

We aren't winning. Ramo has a sub 900, way more loses then wins, and us on a losing streak.

[travel_dude]

We aren't winning. Ramo has a sub 900, way more loses then wins, and us on a losing streak.

 

What I fear is that Ramo continues at the pace of win 2, lose 3 until Hiller returns.  Then Hiller gets started and he wins 1, loses 3.

Wonder what it would be like to have a goalie have a .922 GAA at this point in the season?  

[kehatch]

We are 17-games in.  Ortio has 2 starts.  That is despite Hiller being injured and Ramo clearing waivers.  That is only defensible if it is supported by positive results.  But our goalies are at or near the bottom in both GAA and SV% while the Flames are near the bottom of the standings.  

• They didn't play Ortio at the beginning because they had both Ramo and Hiller and Hartley wanted to get one of them going (despite TERRIBLE goaltending)
• They didn't play him once Hiller got hurt because Hartley wanted to give a goalie a string of starts (Which they gave to the guy that had just cleared waivers and was demoted)
• The aren't playing him on a back to back because Ramo wants the start (despite the fact that Ramo is on a 2 game losing streak with a 0.892 SV% and 3.17 GAA in his series of 6 starts)

I stand by my previous statement.  Ridiculous.

[cross16]

I don't agree playing Ramo tonight, or during this string of games is ridiculous, I do agree how the Flames have handled their goaltending since Day 1 is basically ridiculous. It's almost like they got over confident based on last year when they pushed all the right buttons, but forget to realize that the likelihood of that happening against was basiclaly zero. They needed to pick 2 guys in camp pick a 1-2 and give the nubmer 1 guy a few games. The fact that they carried 3 is quite frankily embarassing. I have zero problem re signing Ramo and brining 3 goalies to camp in fact I still support it. But i support it based on the idea you would pick 2 in camp which IMO should not have been this difficult.

[travel_dude]

I don't agree playing Ramo tonight, or during this string of games is ridiculous, I do agree how the Flames have handled their goaltending since Day 1 is basically ridiculous. It's almost like they got over confident based on last year when they pushed all the right buttons, but forget to realize that the likelihood of that happening against was basiclaly zero. They needed to pick 2 guys in camp pick a 1-2 and give the nubmer 1 guy a few games. The fact that they carried 3 is quite frankily embarassing. I have zero problem re signing Ramo and brining 3 goalies to camp in fact I still support it. But i support it based on the idea you would pick 2 in camp which IMO should not have been this difficult.

 

They had a very short window to drop Ortio to the AHL, but did not use it.  They knew at the time that they were stuck with Hiller and Ramo, so why was he even kept there?  No sense to that at all.  Hartley expressed that he having 3 didn't work, said that last year.

If Hiller and Ramo played out the games, Ortio would have had a few games under his belt.  Results likely would have been different, and we wouldn't have had to waive a goalie.  If Hiller still got injured, he could have been called up.

[DirtyDeeds]

They had a very short window to drop Ortio to the AHL, but did not use it.  They knew at the time that they were stuck with Hiller and Ramo, so why was he even kept there?  No sense to that at all.  Hartley expressed that he having 3 didn't work, said that last year.

If Hiller and Ramo played out the games, Ortio would have had a few games under his belt.  Results likely would have been different, and we wouldn't have had to waive a goalie.  If Hiller still got injured, he could have been called up.

This is so true and yet many posters are trying to point blaming fingers at Hartley for this "3 goalies situation" which he did not create.

[CheersMan]

Ramo starts again tonight. Ridiculous.

 

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

I was happy to see Ramo have a good game tonight, but im still baffled by their treatment of ortio through all of this. Hopefully Ramo runs with this and gains confidence. On a side note they need to figure out what they are doing ortio.

[kehatch]

So if I show a stat line of a game he played poorly in does that mean I am right and he shouldn't have started?

Agree with him starting or not, it's pretty tough to defend how the goalies have been managed this season.

[tincup1]

Yeah, I have to believe Ortio will be waived at some point in the near future when Hiller gets back.  I think it's safe to say the ship has sailed on him as far as the Flames are concerned.

[CheersMan]

So if I show a stat line of a game he played poorly in does that mean I am right and he shouldn't have started?

Agree with him starting or not, it's pretty tough to defend how the goalies have been managed this season.

 

Ramo and Hiller got us to the second round of playoffs last season, lets not kick them them both to the curb 17 games into this season. Right now this team needs goaltending, to play Ortio and maybe lose would make us a three time loser.  Lets play the vets and try to salvage a season and maybe salvage some assets along the way.

[kehatch]

Ramo and Hiller got us to the second round of playoffs last season, lets not kick them them both to the curb 17 games into this season. Right now this team needs goaltending, to play Ortio and maybe lose would make us a three time loser. Lets play the vets and try to salvage a season and maybe salvage some assets along the way.

Last season was last season. This season we have league low goaltending and are in the bottom of the standings.

You are right though. He might lose. But he might not. Every season a young goalie similar to Ortio establishes himself as a top goalie. Not playing him because he might lose is silly. Especially when the vets are losing.

Regardless. Letting him rott in the bench isn't good for anyone.

[DirtyDeeds]

I was happy to see Ramo have a good game tonight, but im still baffled by their treatment of ortio through all of this. Hopefully Ramo runs with this and gains confidence. On a side note they need to figure out what they are doing ortio.

I believe that Ortio is destined to go through waivers as soon as Hiller is good to play. It makes the most sense and will sort of explain why he has been ranked 3rd of the 3. I think he has a better/good chance at passing through waivers now than before when they put Ramo through.

 

Steinberg mentioned in after hours that Ortio is not at his best in practices. That this is an area of becoming a Pro that he needs to work on. 

 

We all know how demanding that BH is on practices and that they be at game situation speeds and conditioning so I think this has a big infleuence into where he gets ranked of the 3.