Goaltending

[travel_dude]

I understand that, but how long can you wait if neither guy is able to step up? That's why I'm saying we need a limit, at which point we get rid of one regardless. Also, we had all of last season to evaluate the goalies. In my mind, its very clear what we have in both. Both are good goalies, but not great. Neither will be the future #1 goalie of the Flames when the team hits its peak. The goalies have some different tendencies in terms of style, but overall, they're about equal in their ability to win games. So at this point, I think you just trade whichever one gets you the best return.

 

Ortio is not the main issue, but to me he is still an important issue, because this is the year we need to evaluate him, and he also needs to be given a chance to step up, which he obviously will not get from Hartley while both Ramo and Hiller are still on the roster.

 

I am inclined to think Hartley will give multiple starts to a goalie, unless he craps the bed.  

[The_Argus]

Sure, and I think once Ortio gets in the rotation, he too will get multiple starts if he is helping the team win. But it seems clear that Hartley has no interest in rotating three goalies, so I'm afraid that Ortio won't even be able to break in unless one of the vets goes. In the mean time, we can't waive him, so he is wasting a roster spot and getting no playing time.

[MAC331]

Sure, and I think once Ortio gets in the rotation, he too will get multiple starts if he is helping the team win. But it seems clear that Hartley has no interest in rotating three goalies, so I'm afraid that Ortio won't even be able to break in unless one of the vets goes. In the mean time, we can't waive him, so he is wasting a roster spot and getting no playing time.

Decisions, decisions, decisions LOL

Call it a feeling but I think they are hoping to move Hiller.

[cross16]

The argument of "take whatever they can get" assumes that they've even received an offer, which i don't believe to be the case. I don't think anyone in the league wants Hiller or Ramo right now and that is the issue, not that the Flames are waiting for someone to come up to their asking price.

[DirtyDeeds]

I think we have to keep in mind that had we not re-signed Ramo, we would have lost him for nothing. Therefore, any return we can get now for Hiller or Ramo is better than what we would have got had we not re-signed Ramo. I know you never want to make a bad trade or give a guy away for too little, but as tmac said, we are in a position of weakness now, and I think we should just take whatever we can get and look at it as a positive (compared to what we would have got had Ramo walked).

 

The goalie circus can't be allowed to continue. This is the year we have to see what we have in Ortio. We are not getting great goaltending so far. From last season and this season so far, I think it's safe to say that a Hiller/Ortio or Ramo/Ortio team isn't going to give us a significantly lower chance of winning compared to the Hiller/Ramo tandem. I hope Treliving can pull the trigger on a trade soon; otherwise I think he needs to make the tough decision and waive one of Ramo or Hiller. By mid-November at the absolute latest - that would still leave 3/4 of the season to evaluate Ortio.

 

The only way I would change my mind is if Ramo and Hiller both start playing lights-out hockey and stealing games. But I don't see that happening.

I disagree with this thinking. You don't switch out a goaltender because the alternative won't give a significantly lower chance to success. This is the worst reason to make those types of moves.

 

You have to find the right reason to keep goaltenders because they give you the best chance of success. If the choices are not giving you the best chance then it is time to shop for better. We can't do much shopping for better with 3 goalies on the club, you would have to get rid of two of them.

 

Edit:

We did not re-sign Ramo because we would have lost an asset for nothing.

We re-signed Ramo when he waded into free agency only to find out there were no better offers than here.

 

He was already a lost asset for nothing.

BT said he re-signed him because he was happy with last years tandem and expected similar results this season.

 

Not sure what you can take on his feelings toward Ortio from those comments. BT likes to have competition for each position on the Flames but this setup with 3 goalies is not an equal competition right now.

 

BH's position is to win now. It can't be anything else.

[robrob1974]

The only way Ortio gets in is whether one of Ramo or Hiller are moved. I see Ortio as at best a backup this season, what there waiting for is one to separate but the both have been horrible. Actually the team as a whole have been awful.

We are now in a position of weakness in a trade involving a goalie.

I know you always want to win a trade, but right now if we got a mid range pick I would be happy. We signed Hiller as a free agent, and almost let Ramo go as one as well. So anything we get is fine. We don't need to win this trade. Getting rid of one is a win. I am torn on who, where prior to the season I sided with Ramo and wanted to trade Hiller.

[travel_dude]

I disagree with this thinking. You don't switch out a goaltender because the alternative won't give a significantly lower chance to success. This is the worst reason to make those types of moves.

 

You have to find the right reason to keep goaltenders because they give you the best chance of success. If the choices are not giving you the best chance then it is time to shop for better. We can't do much shopping for better with 3 goalies on the club, you would have to get rid of two of them.

 

Edit:

We did not re-sign Ramo because we would have lost an asset for nothing.

We re-signed Ramo when he waded into free agency only to find out there were no better offers than here.

 

He was already a lost asset for nothing.

BT said he re-signed him because he was happy with last years tandem and expected similar results this season.

 

Not sure what you can take on his feelings toward Ortio from those comments. BT likes to have competition for each position on the Flames but this setup with 3 goalies is not an equal competition right now.

 

BH's position is to win now. It can't be anything else.

 

Regarding your edit part.

 

Ramo signed within minutes of the beginning of FA.  He had been negotiating with the Flames prior to that.  He may not have got the

feelers sent from other teams in the week prior, but he could easily have waited until the end of the 1st day to re-sign.  Maybe I am mistaken, but you can't hammer out a deal with another team while you are still a player under contract.  You can probably discuss some general concepts, though.  Signing before the actual offers or true UFA period in under way almost implies that BT paid a little more just to ensure his signing.  

[kehatch]

The argument of "take whatever they can get" assumes that they've even received an offer, which i don't believe to be the case. I don't think anyone in the league wants Hiller or Ramo right now and that is the issue, not that the Flames are waiting for someone to come up to their asking price.

If that is true, and I think it is, then why is the coach so insistent on playing the guys that nobody else in the NHL wants.

He said it. He is loyal. These are the guys he has won with. Ortio is a third by default and as such not part of the equation.

But sorry Hartley. Your an NHL coach. Ortio is available and as such needs to be part of the equation.

[DirtyDeeds]

Regarding your edit part.

 

Ramo signed within minutes of the beginning of FA.  He had been negotiating with the Flames prior to that.  He may not have got the

feelers sent from other teams in the week prior, but he could easily have waited until the end of the 1st day to re-sign.  Maybe I am mistaken, but you can't hammer out a deal with another team while you are still a player under contract.  You can probably discuss some general concepts, though.  Signing before the actual offers or true UFA period in under way almost implies that BT paid a little more just to ensure his signing.  

There is little doubt in my mind that if Ramo's Agent had had any feelers from other teams he would have waited a couple more days to investigate their interest. He could easily have become a lost asset, as you say within minutes.

 

As it was, I don't see there having been any interest at least to the degree of the Flames were willing to offer, so he signed with us.

[DirtyDeeds]

Over on THN is this article:

 

As for Ortio there  is this little snippet of info:

 

Not much else that has not already been over discussed already here...

[jjgallow]

Over on THN is this article:

 

As for Ortio there  is this little snippet of info:

 

Not much else that has not already been over discussed already here...

 

 

This is news to me.  I thought Harley's job was to win hockey games.  But clearly he believes (or has been told) that his job is to keep playing two poorly performing goaltenders until one of them gets better.   

 

Who is responsible for winning hockey games, then?  Has that objective been relegated to one of the assistant coaches?

 

 

As for the third goalie comment, we all agree that three goalies is not an ideal situation.  But I'm confused why Hartley thinks this hasn't already happened?

[darth_henning]

We have now been scored on 5 (or more) times in most of our games. 

 

Can we FINALLY try Ortio now? 

 

Neither Hiller or Ramo is getting it done. Maybe if we had a goalie we could trust the rest of the team might pick it up. 

 

Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

[The_Argus]

The argument of "take whatever they can get" assumes that they've even received an offer, which i don't believe to be the case. I don't think anyone in the league wants Hiller or Ramo right now and that is the issue, not that the Flames are waiting for someone to come up to their asking price.

 

I agree, and if that's the case, then as I said I think one of the goalies should be waived if they don't pull it together soon. I'm just saying, if anyone is offering anything at this point, Treliving should run with it and not feel bad for "losing" the trade.

 

I disagree with this thinking. You don't switch out a goaltender because the alternative won't give a significantly lower chance to success. This is the worst reason to make those types of moves.

 

You have to find the right reason to keep goaltenders because they give you the best chance of success. If the choices are not giving you the best chance then it is time to shop for better. We can't do much shopping for better with 3 goalies on the club, you would have to get rid of two of them.

 

Well, the problem is we don't really know what we have in Ortio yet, because he's not getting any games. To rephrase my opinion, at worst I don't think he gives us a significantly lower chance to win (how could he with the way Ramo/Hiller are playing now?). But there is also a chance that he runs with the ball and improves our chance to win. I think that chance is clearly worth taking at this point.

[kehatch]

Ramo let on his classic weak goal and was ultimately pulled. Hiller gave up two much net playing out of position on two goals. Both goalies were poor tonight. This season our goalies are 0.867 and 0.879 for save percentage. There have been 4 or more goals against in half of our games. We have won a single game.

It is inexcusable that Ortio is sitting the press box. I understand there are other issues. But that doesn't mean you ignore this one.

[travel_dude]

Ramo let on his classic weak goal and was ultimately pulled. Hiller gave up two much net playing out of position on two goals. Both goalies were poor tonight. This season our goalies are 0.867 and 0.879 for save percentage. There have been 4 or more goals against in half of our games. We have won a single game.

It is inexcusable that Ortio is sitting the press box. I understand there are other issues. But that doesn't mean you ignore this one.

 

BT will probably step in now.  The coach is forcing his hand.  I used to have confidence in Hiller, but that is gone.  He is playing like he knows he is being traded.  At least when Ramo gets scored on, he looks like he just got shot.  Overplays at times, but that is why you have defense.

 

I am ok right now with waiving a goalie to give the other goalie and Ortio a chance to take the reins.  Said waived goalie can get his game back in the AHL, or ECHL or whatever.  Two starters that play like crap isn;t working to allow proper rotation.  Niether goalie gets a win, so they likely sit next game.  Ramo had a good game (58 minutes) and sits the next night.  We get sub-par Hiller play and he sits next game.  Ramo has a loss and we likely go back to Hiller, even though Hiller lets on the goal that deflates our comeback.

 

Rinse and repeat.

[Zirakzigil]

 

Regarding your edit part.

 

Ramo signed within minutes of the beginning of FA.  He had been negotiating with the Flames prior to that.  He may not have got the

feelers sent from other teams in the week prior, but he could easily have waited until the end of the 1st day to re-sign.  Maybe I am mistaken, but you can't hammer out a deal with another team while you are still a player under contract.  You can probably discuss some general concepts, though.  Signing before the actual offers or true UFA period in under way almost implies that BT paid a little more just to ensure his signing.  

 

Ramo came out and said as much after free agency, 

 

We have now been scored on 5 (or more) times in most of our games. 

 

Can we FINALLY try Ortio now? 

 

Neither Hiller or Ramo is getting it done. Maybe if we had a goalie we could trust the rest of the team might pick it up. 

 

Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

No point in playing Ortio when this team has little interest in playing defense. 

[daveinoman]

Not sure why people claim there are three goaltenders on the Flames. Ortio doesn't even get a shot at proving himself. It is really a situation where Hartly chooses the least liability in net on any given night. (Hmmm, I think Rams will let in 6 goals and Hills will let in 5, so Hills gets the nod.) Not that I m blming the netminders for the losses. I would just like Ortio to get his shot.

[cross16]

While I agree the Flames are struggling in their own zone, last nights game is squarely on the shoulders of the goaltenders. That Ovechkin goal on Ramo was a back breaker and you could tell in the building that it took both the fans and the team out of the game. I liked their first period last night I thought the had the skating and effort you are use to seeing with this team and then BAM, Ramo lets that in and the team sinks.... You are not going to win if your goalies let in 3 weak goals in a night... I get it only makes it 3-2 but if Ramo makes that save on Ovechkin its a different game.

 

The coutner point to that is well it was only 2-1 so they should keep playing but when you are in a slump/funk and you are not seeing things go your way its so so tough to mentally just push that aside. There were alot of bounces last night, and so far this year, that have gone against the Flames so I don't blame them for get deflated by that goal. As I said earlier I think goalies are like starting pitchers in baseball and when you have a good one you feel invicible, and when you have a bad one you feel like you can't make any mistakes. Right now the Flames are playing like they can't make any mistakes and thus are making a ton of them. IMO, they have to go to Ortio now, no if ands or buts. If either HIller or Ramo showed any signs of coming out of this I would keep playing them but they are both looking worse, not better.

[MAC331]

While I agree the Flames are struggling in their own zone, last nights game is squarely on the shoulders of the goaltenders. That Ovechkin goal on Ramo was a back breaker and you could tell in the building that it took both the fans and the team out of the game. I liked their first period last night I thought the had the skating and effort you are use to seeing with this team and then BAM, Ramo lets that in and the team sinks.... You are not going to win if your goalies let in 3 weak goals in a night... I get it only makes it 3-2 but if Ramo makes that save on Ovechkin its a different game.

 

The coutner point to that is well it was only 2-1 so they should keep playing but when you are in a slump/funk and you are not seeing things go your way its so so tough to mentally just push that aside. There were alot of bounces last night, and so far this year, that have gone against the Flames so I don't blame them for get deflated by that goal. As I said earlier I think goalies are like starting pitchers in baseball and when you have a good one you feel invicible, and when you have a bad one you feel like you can't make any mistakes. Right now the Flames are playing like they can't make any mistakes and thus are making a ton of them. IMO, they have to go to Ortio now, no if ands or buts. If either HIller or Ramo showed any signs of coming out of this I would keep playing them but they are both looking worse, not better.

BS you can't keep using the Goalie as the scape goat when the entire team is playing terrible. I thought puck possession was to be a priority this season, we never have the puck. We are always in our own end scrambling around trying to stick poke the opposition. This team had better learn fast how to hit and check or this is going to continue unfortunately.

[cross16]

BS you can't keep using the Goalie as the scape goat when the entire team is playing terrible. I thought puck possession was to be a priority this season, we never have the puck. We are always in our own end scrambling around trying to stick poke the opposition. This team had better learn fast how to hit and check or this is going to continue unfortunately.

 

 

I don't think they played terrible last night. They were terible for the first 15 minutes of the 2nd period but outside of that I thought they played solid.

 

You cannot allow 3 weak goals in a game, period end of story. I don't care how your team is playing in front of you as a professional goalie you need to make saves and letting in 3 weak goals is inexscusable. Yes the Flames need to play better but until they get saves its going to be extremely tough to win games. YOu cannot spot any team in the NHL 3 goals like that and expect to win not matter how you are playing as a team and its not just the goals its the timing. They have a good 1st period and then 30 seconds into the 2nd, bam weak goal. Despite being down 4-1 I thought they came out strong in the 3rd, got back intot a bit and then less then 4 minutes later, BAM weak goal to kill any momentum they were gaining.

 

It's not a scapegoat at all. The goalies are not getting their job done period.

[cross16]

News alot of people have been waiting for.......

 

 

Bob McKenzie

@TSNBobMcKenzie  

Karri Ramo (CGY) on waivers.

9:02 AM - 21 Oct 2015

 

 

 

I highly doubt he gets claimed and lets remember that just becuase he is on waivers may not mean anything in terms of a roster move. Could just be opening up options but I do think this means we are likely going to see Ortio in the near future.

[travel_dude]

News alot of people have been waiting for.......

 

 

Bob McKenzie

@TSNBobMcKenzie  

Karri Ramo (CGY) on waivers.

9:02 AM - 21 Oct 2015

 

 

 

I highly doubt he gets claimed and lets remember that just becuase he is on waivers may not mean anything in terms of a roster move. Could just be opening up options but I do think this means we are likely going to see Ortio in the near future.

 

Not the one I expected.  But I would prefer him going to Stockton, as he has no ego issues and needs to play.  He has to get his game and confidence back.  One mistake and you sit is not the right way to juggle goaltenders.  You sometimes need to go back to them when they have a chip on their shoulders.

[MAC331]

I don't think they played terrible last night. They were terible for the first 15 minutes of the 2nd period but outside of that I thought they played solid.

 

You cannot allow 3 weak goals in a game, period end of story. I don't care how your team is playing in front of you as a professional goalie you need to make saves and letting in 3 weak goals is inexscusable. Yes the Flames need to play better but until they get saves its going to be extremely tough to win games. YOu cannot spot any team in the NHL 3 goals like that and expect to win not matter how you are playing as a team and its not just the goals its the timing. They have a good 1st period and then 30 seconds into the 2nd, bam weak goal. Despite being down 4-1 I thought they came out strong in the 3rd, got back intot a bit and then less then 4 minutes later, BAM weak goal to kill any momentum they were gaining.

 

It's not a scapegoat at all. The goalies are not getting their job done period.

Weak flukey goals are the order of the day it seems for the NHL. The key for me is to improve our puck possession thus not giving the opposition so much time in our zone. Our defense was terrible especially Wideman who thinks he is a goalie half the time, he should concentrate more on who is his coverage.

[cross16]

Weak flukey goals are the order of the day it seems for the NHL. The key for me is to improve our puck possession thus not giving the opposition so much time in our zone. Our defense was terrible especially Wideman who thinks he is a goalie half the time, he should concentrate more on who is his coverage.

 

These arn't "flukey" goals they are flat out terrible goals.I would have sympathy if pucks were bouncing certain ways on them or something but they simply are not coming up with saves they need to match and in some cases the D plays it great. On he Chimera goal he keeps him outside, prevents the pass in the middle, forces the shot, and boom in your net. D played it perfectly.

Backstrom goal, again tie him up force him away from the net and boom, you let in a soft backhand over your glove.

 

"Terrible" is harsh. They were terrible for parts of the 2nd but outside of that they got better, but its almost impossible to play defence when you don't trust who is behind you and IMO the Flames have ZERO faith right now they are going to get a save. I don't care who your team is and how you are playing you will not win thinking like that.

[tmac70]

These arn't "flukey" goals they are flat out terrible goals.I would have sympathy if pucks were bouncing certain ways on them or something but they simply are not coming up with saves they need to match and in some cases the D plays it great. On he Chimera goal he keeps him outside, prevents the pass in the middle, forces the shot, and boom in your net. D played it perfectly.

Backstrom goal, again tie him up force him away from the net and boom, you let in a soft backhand over your glove.

 

"Terrible" is harsh. They were terrible for parts of the 2nd but outside of that they got better, but its almost impossible to play defence when you don't trust who is behind you and IMO the Flames have ZERO faith right now they are going to get a save. I don't care who your team is and how you are playing you will not win thinking like that.

Uhmmm both goals you spoke of were made on Hiller not Ramo,