Goaltending

[Flyerfan52]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

Nobody is criticizing you because you are negative or talking development. Stop playing the victim card. I don't agree with you. It's thst simple. An 1000 word essay of logic leaps and random stats and hyperbole isn't going to change that. 

 

You used a few early games in a tier 4 league and a couple of preseason games to come to a conclusion. You ignored the body of work that preceded that but accused others of failing to see the big picture. I don't just disagree with your conclusions, I disagree with how you get there.

 

The Flames wouldn't be better with Ortio over Johnson. Given our strong tandem and prospects we have in the system the Flames are not in a bad place RE goaltending. In fact Elliott is one of the top tenders in the NHL and Gilles is probably the top goaltending prospect. 

 

It seems ridiculous to cry doom and gloom because the Flames didn't retain a goalie that nobody in any top league wanted. It seems doubly ridiculous to be doing that on October 9. 

Top Flames prospect. I rather like Hellebuyck, Hutchinson & Subban more.

[Carty]

On 2016-10-08 at 3:04 PM, jjgallow said:

But never, ever, do we admit to #3:

We made a mistake

 

The Flames admitted they made a mistake...   Going with the 3 goalies they decided to rely on last season...

 

Including Ortio...   We saw this kind of thing all too often...

 

     

           "Whoops...   Guess he didn't go 5 hole after all..."

[kehatch]

3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

ok, that's cool, I will just point out that around this time last year I expressed my concerns about goaltending and I'm Fairly certain you also told me at that time that it was "not the time".   Anyway, for me this isn't really about Ortio, or even this season, and of course I think we'll have improved goaltending this year.

 

Just, not Enough of an improvement to make us a contender.   And, I  still don't see the steps that need to be taken to make us a contender in the future.  

 

Nobody's predicting doom and gloom for this season.   It's mediocrity that is the concern, followed by decline in subsequent years if no plan is laid out.   Basically more of the same, because we're seeing more of the same short term decisions to patch things up.

 

Your idea was to bring on an unproven young kid to tandem with Ortio.  Somehow that was the solution (and only solution) to a future cup.  It was a ridiculous idea then made more ridiculous after the Flames managed to get what they did in net.  The Flames are in a fantastic position in goal with stability at the position on the NHL club, a high profile prospect in the AHL, a couple of other guys in the system, flexible contracts, and likely a lot of available goalies next spring.  You don't agree because they didn't do it your way.  I just think you should circle the air a little longer before you swoop down with your inevitable told you so because there isn't anything to tell at the moment.  

[jjgallow]

Lol ok...sorry...

No harm intended...i will "circle the air" a little longer then....

 

We all see things different ways I guess.   I might only add that pointing out areas for improvement is not the same as hoping for failure.   Despite how some may interpret it.

 

Happy thanksgiving

[travel_dude]

28 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

Lol ok...sorry...

No harm intended...i will "circle the air" a little longer then....

 

We all see things different ways I guess.   I might only add that pointing out areas for improvement is not the same as hoping for failure.   Despite how some may interpret it.

 

Happy thanksgiving

 

Feel free to bring up Ortio if or when he makes it back to the NHL as a starter.  Other than that, have a Happy Thanksgiving yourself.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

7 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Those acquisitions are reminiscent of the pattern the Flames have followed.

 

4.  Even with Elliot (I admit it was a good value deal), the Flames are relying on acquiring older goalies which will likely never contribute to a plan to win a cup.

 

5.   Defence still remains inadequate to be a contender, imho.  By the time this is addressed, none of the goalies we're talking about now, will ever matter.  Except, MAYBE....Parsons.  If they don't cast him away by then too (I already see a lack of development plan for Gillies).

 

At point 4, you dont need elliot to contribute to a cup, you need him to provide solid goaltending so the team in front of him can learn to win hockey games and stay in hockey games longer then the puck drop like say ortio allowed. 

 

At point 5, how is the defence inadequate? Every top analyst, and many scouts are on the record saying the flames have one of the best D corps in the league, and its only going to get better. Yes wideman, smid etc are overpriced, that doesnt make it inadequate. 

 

Also a lack of a development plan? you mean putting him in a position to be the guy in stockton is a lack of a plan? Why are they casting parsons away?

 

I swear you come up with ridiculous arguments just to be the devils advocate.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Feel free to bring up Ortio if or when he makes it back to the NHL as a starter.  Other than that, have a Happy Thanksgiving yourself.  

 

Um...you do realize it was you that brought him up?  When it wasn't on topic or necessary?

 

 Somewhat passive aggressive  and counter-productive response to an attempt to bury the hatchet.... unfortunate.

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Um...you do realize it was you that brought him up?  When it wasn't on topic or necessary?

 

 Somewhat passive aggressive  and counter-productive response to an attempt to bury the hatchet.... unfortunate.

 

You are a hoot, man.  In the past 260 pages, how often have you brought up Ortio?  As usual, you feel the need to extend it by being the last to post.  Just let it drop.  Prove everyone wrong when he becomes a starter.  

[Kulstad]

Thank you Mr Trump, thank you Secretary Clinton.  Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our Joni Ortio portion of our Goaltending debate.  We will now move along to "who is in our system, from Adirondack all the way up to the NHL club"

[jjgallow]

52 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

At point 4, you dont need elliot to contribute to a cup,

 

Maybe you don't, but I do.  It depends on your expectations, yes..   I understand where you're coming from and I DO like the acquisition, but it's hardly a long term solution to the problem.   It is an excellent stop-gap imho.  No more, no less.

 

Quote

At point 5, how is the defence inadequate? Every top analyst, and many scouts are on the record saying the flames have one of the best D corps in the league, and its only going to get better. Yes wideman, smid etc are overpriced, that doesnt make it inadequate. 

 

Sigh...somehow I fear Ron Francis has something to do with this?   Not sure where you're getting your material from.

 

When they have the worst goals against in the league, and they...keep the same defence...after going through Many goaltenders... how can they Not be inadequate?

 

Hamilton isn't ready, Wideman and Smid as you say.  Basically, you have Giordano and TJ Brodie....and then a Steep drop-off from there.  

 

As always, we will see.   As long as we don't blame the goalies Again this year....I actually have some fear of that.

 

Quote

Also a lack of a development plan? you mean putting him in a position to be the guy in stockton is a lack of a plan? Why are they casting parsons away?

 

I swear you come up with ridiculous arguments just to be the devils advocate.

 

I never said they were casting Parsons away.   Gillies has no chance of playing substantial minutes in the NHL this year barring a serious injury, and he is far from in that position in stockton.   They are bolstered with numerous competitors.  Competition is good, up to the point that it takes development minutes away from your top prospects and limits their opportunity for advancement.

 

Again, we'll see.  But they've passed over Gillies before.

[JTech780]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Maybe you don't, but I do.  It depends on your expectations, yes..   I understand where you're coming from and I DO like the acquisition, but it's hardly a long term solution to the problem.   It is an excellent stop-gap imho.  No more, no less.

 

 

Sigh...somehow I fear Ron Francis has something to do with this?   Not sure where you're getting your material from.

 

When they have the worst goals against in the league, and they...keep the same defence...after going through Many goaltenders... how can they Not be inadequate?

 

Hamilton isn't ready, Wideman and Smid as you say.  Basically, you have Giordano and TJ Brodie....and then a Steep drop-off from there.  

 

As always, we will see.   As long as we don't blame the goalies Again this year....I actually have some fear of that.

 

 

I never said they were casting Parsons away.   Gillies has no chance of playing substantial minutes in the NHL this year barring a serious injury, and he is far from in that position in stockton.   They are bolstered with numerous competitors.  Competition is good, up to the point that it takes development minutes away from your top prospects and limits their opportunity for advancement.

 

Again, we'll see.  But they've passed over Gillies before.

 

At this point Gillies isn't ready for substantial NHL minutes, so it's a good thing we have two top notch NHL goaltenders.

 

Gillies will get the lion share of the workload in Stockton, which is the best place for his development.

 

When has Gillies ever been passed over?

 

If you think just putting a goalie in the NHL with basically no pro experience is best for his development, then you are on the wrong track. There is only one goaltender in recent memory that made the jump straight to the NHL without significant time in the AHL and that's Carey Price, and as good as Gillies is he has never shown ability anywhere near Carey Price level.

[MAC331]

18 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

1.  I don't sing

 

2.  You can make me out to be negative, if you want.   But having that angle on it doesn't change the fact that it's been relatively accurate.

 

3.   I did not think they'd be able to acquire someone like Elliot for what they paid, that is true.  I can't argue with it and in that sense I was wrong.

            But that doesn't explain Rittich, Johnson, etc.  Those acquisitions are reminiscent of the pattern the Flames have followed.

 

4.  Even with Elliot (I admit it was a good value deal), the Flames are relying on acquiring older goalies which will likely never contribute to a plan to win a cup.

 

5.   Defence still remains inadequate to be a contender, imho.  By the time this is addressed, none of the goalies we're talking about now, will ever matter.  Except, MAYBE....Parsons.  If they don't cast him away by then too (I already see a lack of development plan for Gillies).

 

Point #5, is I suppose, the kind of "doom and gloom" you refer to, which, yes, you are right, I have been claiming for many, many years now...

 

Accurately.  And consistently.   Through playoff runs, and droughts.

 

You call it negative, I call it the first step to a solution:  Admitting there's a  problem.

Your posts boarder on trolling just to keep yourself in the headlines on this topic. In no way has our goaltending stayed average, both goalies records speak for themselves. As far as Gilles goes it is hard to maintain a development path when you have hip surgery, which he seems fully recovered from now. The reason for having numerous prospects is the system is for the very fact that not all of them will ever reach the NHL in a significant way. This does not make your system of development a failure.

As far as our defense goes you appear to be taking the same All Star in all positions approach here as well, that just doesn't happen and you know it. Other teams are envious with who we have as our core and more for defense right now. Even if you leave Wideman off the list Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton and Jokipakka are a solid group to take up minutes of quality defense.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

At this point Gillies isn't ready for substantial NHL minutes, so it's a good thing we have two top notch NHL goaltenders.

 

Gillies will get the lion share of the workload in Stockton, which is the best place for his development.

 

When has Gillies ever been passed over?

 

If you think just putting a goalie in the NHL with basically no pro experience is best for his development, then you are on the wrong track. There is only one goaltender in recent memory that made the jump straight to the NHL without significant time in the AHL and that's Carey Price, and as good as Gillies is he has never shown ability anywhere near Carey Price level.

Not to mention Carey Price was no instant success entering the NHL, trade rumors circled around him in the early years.

[DirtyDeeds]

14 hours ago, jjgallow said:

Lol ok...sorry...

No harm intended...i will "circle the air" a little longer then....

 

We all see things different ways I guess.   I might only add that pointing out areas for improvement is not the same as hoping for failure.   Despite how some may interpret it.

 

Happy thanksgiving

I am still at odds with our goalie coaching. While having 3 goalies on the roster was a huge mistake by BT, our goalie coach took more than half the season to get them on track. That is assuming he was the one who finally got them straightened out.  We have been sheltered from this guy for politically correct reasons not hockey reasons. I don't know for sure if he isn't tinkering with what is working and making things worse. I have yet to hear any words of wisdom from him.

 

From this perspective JJ I am with you on your thoughts of development of our goalies, not just the prospect goalies.

[zima]

So  Ondrej Pavelec has been put on waivers with the way Chad has played I am not sold on his abilities to back stop this team in the future so why not have another three headed monster in the system. To this point Chad has not shown he can play in the NHL Mason might be a better option than Chad and that is truly not saying much. put chad on waivers and grab  Ondrej Pavelec LOL Ok kidding but we need something to happen I don't see Chad solving our problem I know give him a chance but to this point I'm not convinced he will help this team.

[kehatch]

4 minutes ago, zima said:

So  Ondrej Pavelec has been put on waivers with the way Chad has played I am not sold on his abilities to back stop this team in the future so why not have another three headed monster in the system. To this point Chad has not shown he can play in the NHL Mason might be a better option than Chad and that is truly not saying much. put chad on waivers and grab  Ondrej Pavelec LOL Ok kidding but we need something to happen I don't see Chad solving our problem I know give him a chance but to this point I'm not convinced he will help this team.

 

Johnson put up a 920 save percentage over 45 games last year. I would say he has proven he can play on the NHL. 

[JTech780]

4 minutes ago, zima said:

So  Ondrej Pavelec has been put on waivers with the way Chad has played I am not sold on his abilities to back stop this team in the future so why not have another three headed monster in the system. To this point Chad has not shown he can play in the NHL Mason might be a better option than Chad and that is truly not saying much. put chad on waivers and grab  Ondrej Pavelec LOL Ok kidding but we need something to happen I don't see Chad solving our problem I know give him a chance but to this point I'm not convinced he will help this team.

 

He is our back up goalie and he is better than Pavelec. Johnson put up a .920 save% playing for Buffalo last year and we are judging him to be a poor goalie based on 2 pre-season games. How about we give him some time before we run him out of town. Also he is the back up he isn't here to solve our problems but to give depth to the position,

[cross16]

19 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Waits a minutes...

 

I haves a question.

 

I count 16 goals against us in 7 games.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/nhl/year-2016-season-preseason-category-goalsagainstaverage

 

Under what math did we finish 2nd in the league for goals against average, with a 1.27?

 

 

Those were the stat and after the 6 games. It didn't include the Vancouver game, they were updated later. 

[Carty]

1 hour ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I am still at odds with our goalie coaching. While having 3 goalies on the roster was a huge mistake by BT, our goalie coach took more than half the season to get them on track. That is assuming he was the one who finally got them straightened out.  We have been sheltered from this guy for politically correct reasons not hockey reasons. I don't know for sure if he isn't tinkering with what is working and making things worse. I have yet to hear any words of wisdom from him.

 

From this perspective JJ I am with you on your thoughts of development of our goalies, not just the prospect goalies.

 

Well said Deeds...   I have been critical of Sigalet on these forums more than a few times, and I still fail to see how he is qualified for the job in the first place, or how he can possibly be the best choice available...

 

[zima]

It's funny but in this game it is what have you done for us lately Rams did awesome the first season with Hiller the next yr total failure. Usually on this forum most here are in the same mind frame just because some one did good a yr ago doesn't make for a solid Option going forward especially when they have done so crappy in the preseason against as most like to claim on this forum sub pare opposition. At least that is what I hear when it comes to Chuky and his success to this point so if Chuky is only producing due to lack of quality players then it only stands to reason that Chad should be killing it in net no?     

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Those were the stat and after the 6 games. It didn't include the Vancouver game, they were updated later. 

 

You mean, the Vancouver game which occurred a full day before you posted those stats?

 

On a side note....the link I have still isn't updated.  weird.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/nhl/year-2016-season-preseason-category-goalsagainstaverage

[cross16]

4 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

You mean, the Vancouver game which occurred a full day before you posted those stats?

 

On a side note....the link I have still isn't updated.  weird.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/nhl/year-2016-season-preseason-category-goalsagainstaverage

 

When it comes to preseason all sites are never in a rush to update them so when I checked that date those were the stats. 

[jjgallow]

59 minutes ago, Carty said:

 

Well said Deeds...   I have been critical of Sigalet on these forums more than a few times, and I still fail to see how he is qualified for the job in the first place, or how he can possibly be the best choice available...

 

 

Some common ground....this is uncomfortable

 

"You had one job" comes to mind.   It is somewhat of a paradox that with so many goalies coming out of our AHL system being deemed NHL failures lately, the only person who had the sole job of developing those same players in the AHL since 2011, gets a promotion out of it to the NHL.  

 

Followed by the subsequent failure of Every NHL goalie, including proven ones, once it was his sole job to develop and maintain their performance.

 

Amazing story, amazing person.   But ......

 

[jjgallow]

7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

When it comes to preseason all sites are never in a rush to update them so when I checked that date those were the stats. 

 

all good.   Yes, Elliot is a stud either way.  Point taken.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

At this point Gillies isn't ready for substantial NHL minutes, so it's a good thing we have two top notch NHL goaltenders.

 

We will never know that, but ok.

 

Quote

Gillies will get the lion share of the workload in Stockton, which is the best place for his development.

 

That is the hope.  But their coach is paid to get wins.   And he will be competing with a highly accomplished 24 year old.  We will see.  It is in the Flame's best interest to play the goalie with the higher ceiling.   But their coach will Probably play the best goalie (at his discretion).  Some risk there with regards to his discretion.

 

Quote

When has Gillies ever been passed over?

 

The answer to this has now wisely been considered off-topic on this thread

 

Quote

If you think just putting a goalie in the NHL with basically no pro experience is best for his development, then you are on the wrong track. There is only one goaltender in recent memory that made the jump straight to the NHL without significant time in the AHL and that's Carey Price, and as good as Gillies is he has never shown ability anywhere near Carey Price level.

 

US College Hockey is so much more than it once was.   Some might even question if the AHL is a step back for him (I wouldn't go quite that far myself).

 

Connor Helleybuck is the only fair and recent comparison.