Goaltending

[AlbertaBoy12]

Needs some seasoning.... more playing time.... <insert suitable cliche here>

I agree he wasent consistent but hes started to turn things around. I think the flames are trying to lose now whichever way you slice it, because ortio has been better then hiller or backstrom. There is little chance he gets stockton into the playoffs as im pretty sure they are eliminated. I dont get it.

[travel_dude]

Not sure what's happening here, maybe contract extension talks gone sideways?

 

 

Good April Fools joke.  If it wasn't JJ's head would literally explode.

[Flyerfan52]

Lots of teams have multiple goalie prospects.  If a goalie is good enough, it doesn't matter what is already in a team's system.   

He sounds like a top prospect to me, and would be ahead of MacDonald.  He would be at Gillies level.

 

Here's an article about him....

 

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2016/03/30/mens-hockey-lyon-17-star-goaltender-to-depart-for-nhl/

3 years without being drafted. Many teams (Jets come to mind) see college players as their future. Free development & walk away possibility if not up to expectations.

I'd sign him & add him to the prospect pool but certainly not expect him to be an NHLer next season. College #s are suspect due to the fewer games played & different rules (closer to Euro hockey). Even AHLers are a of different mindset than a college kid.

 

If the Flames expect to be within sniffing distance of the playoffs next year they need  NHL caliber goalies. Teams can break in a few rookies every year as skaters but with only 2 goalies you want @ least 1 with a resume & hopefully the backup has played pro games @ some level.

[travel_dude]

3 years without being drafted. Many teams (Jets come to mind) see college players as their future. Free development & walk away possibility if not up to expectations.

I'd sign him & add him to the prospect pool but certainly not expect him to be an NHLer next season. College #s are suspect due to the fewer games played & different rules (closer to Euro hockey). Even AHLers are a of different mindset than a college kid.

 

If the Flames expect to be within sniffing distance of the playoffs next year they need  NHL caliber goalies. Teams can break in a few rookies every year as skaters but with only 2 goalies you want @ least 1 with a resume & hopefully the backup has played pro games @ some level.

 

I am all for adding him to the pool.  

 

I'm not suggesting he is NHL ready or even close.  If anything, he is at about the same level as Gillies.  That's just my opinion based on his stats.  He has one year less of NCAA hockey, but Gillies missed the year due to injury.

 

We absolutely have to find a starter this year.  Maybe Ortio can be the backup and even be a 1b goalie, but that remains to be seen.

Picking up a prospect without using a draft pick works for me.

[jjgallow]

Good April Fools joke.  If it wasn't JJ's head would literally explode.

 

Yes, yes it would

[StarkRaving]

I have no problems with kicking tires and potentially adding Lyon to the pool, but this doesn't address the immediate need.

 

I'd be happy to have Ortio in a backup role & making backup money in 2016-2017.  As for the other three (Hiller, Ramo, Backstrom) the Flames should thank them for their service and wish them well in free agency.  Then the Flames need to go out and find a starter who can carry the mail next season.

 

I had hoped that the Flames could work a trade for Frederik Andersen before he becomes an RFA.  He's out with a concussion now though; concussions are a HUGE red flag for me.  I don't think they ever completely go away. 

[MAC331]

I have no problems with kicking tires and potentially adding Lyon to the pool, but this doesn't address the immediate need.

 

I'd be happy to have Ortio in a backup role & making backup money in 2016-2017.  As for the other three (Hiller, Ramo, Backstrom) the Flames should thank them for their service and wish them well in free agency.  Then the Flames need to go out and find a starter who can carry the mail next season.

 

I had hoped that the Flames could work a trade for Frederik Andersen before he becomes an RFA.  He's out with a concussion now though; concussions are a HUGE red flag for me.  I don't think they ever completely go away. 

I believe Ortio has played well enough for consideration next season, now it is up to him to resign. If he does, good if not we will be seeking two replacements. I don't see ANA trading Anderssen, especially to us.

BT has a heavy task in front of him IMO to do a number of deals to move out some of our redundant players and contracts so he may trade for two goalies such as Elliott STL or Kinkaid NJD, a team with a number of holes to fill.

 

As far as Lyon goes, hell yeah bring him in.

[gsp393]

IMO kinkaid is both a worse prospect and goaltender than ortio. Hard Pass. I think Bishop os out of our price range with the big raise he will get in 2017. Andersson is the guy i want the most with great number, size and still young enough to develop into an elite tender....alas i doubt the ducks trade him to us. They probably target toronto or someone else out east.

My top target this summer will be Brian Elliot. Hes having another terrific year and would be great in a 1A/1B system with ortio. Unfortunately i hate that system because its proven not to work come playoffs. The issue is we basically have no choice as no ones giving away a 65 game starting goalie. Atleast with Elliot we would create a winning culture without blowing up our pick/prospect pool and allow the immense goalie talent we have in our system to develop. Hopefully in 3 years weve draft/developed our own elite #1.

[MAC331]

IMO kinkaid is both a worse prospect and goaltender than ortio. Hard Pass. I think Bishop os out of our price range with the big raise he will get in 2017. Andersson is the guy i want the most with great number, size and still young enough to develop into an elite tender....alas i doubt the ducks trade him to us. They probably target toronto or someone else out east.

My top target this summer will be Brian Elliot. Hes having another terrific year and would be great in a 1A/1B system with ortio. Unfortunately i hate that system because its proven not to work come playoffs. The issue is we basically have no choice as no ones giving away a 65 game starting goalie. Atleast with Elliot we would create a winning culture without blowing up our pick/prospect pool and allow the immense goalie talent we have in our system to develop. Hopefully in 3 years weve draft/developed our own elite #1.

What are you basing that opinion on ? My other reason to target Kinkaid was to unload possibly some of our players they might find useful.

[DirtyDeeds]

Maybe I am being too hard on Ortio but he has not shown me that he is ready to be a starter.

 

A smart GM would be looking for a true #1 or even a better than average starting goaltender for this team. Rumours and indications are that the Flames are going to be looking so good on them.

 

I also am unsure with Ortio as our backup. I know lately his stats are much better than earlier but...

• A backup needs to be ready when called upon.
• He has to be different than a starter and be able to sit on the bench for lengthy periods and come in cold.
• Ortio struggled when he finally got the call this season.
• Ortio struggled out of the gate last season on the Farm too.
• There were rumours that he was not giving it his all in practise too.
• Ortio needed a few games play to settle in and start playing well.

Edit: Oh and there was the Waivers thing. Ortio had to clear waivers due to his poor play. That is a blemish that is hard to forget. I put a lot of the blame for that on BT however.

 

 

These are my immediate concerns. I see the talent, I see a flash of good goaltending from him but I am not sure he will accept a reduced salary to compete as our backup next season. I don't think that the Flames should be offering him much more than "possible backup wages" for next season.

 

I am not sure there is 2 goalies the Flames can pickup for our tandem for next year so I will leave Ortio as 1 possibility for the backup role, at least in my mind.

[darth_henning]

Maybe I am being too hard on Ortio but he has not shown me that he is ready to be a starter.

 

No, I agree. 

 

Right now he's shown himself to be probably a suitable backup, who MAY progress to starter with time. But definitely not ready yet. 

 

If he plays himself into a starter position next year, that's fantastic, but thats a bonus, not an expectation. 

 

A smart GM would be looking for a true #1 or even a better than average starting goaltender for this team. Rumours and indications are that the Flames are going to be looking so good on them.

 

In theory, also agreed. The problem is cost. 

 

If we can clear out some of our 18 mil of dead cap, then that's the first position we need to look to upgrade.

 

But proceeding on the assumption we're stuck with it, or most of it, we're probably looking at landing a league-average stop-gap for a year or two before either Gillies is ready or we can afford to upgrade. 

[jjgallow]

Maybe I am being too hard on Ortio but he has not shown me that he is ready to be a starter.

 

 

I actually agree with this part too, he isn't ready to be a true starter.  It's definitely a projection for him now, though.

 

IMHO, had the Flames handled goaltender development better these last few years, he Could likely be ready to be a starter right now.

 

I just don't see why the Flames would choose Now to look for a true #1.  

 

 

they honestly haven't made Any real concerted effort at sourcing a true #1 since Kipper left.  It's been patches the whole way.

 

 

Except....can they honestly find a patch, now, that's going to play better than Ortio anyway?   

 

He's in that grey area.   Where if you choose a Another half-measure, you know Ortio will probably take it from them anyway.

 

And to be honest, I don't think the Flames are going to find that true #1.  At a reasonable cost.

 

So why bother?

[travel_dude]

 

I just don't see why the Flames would choose Now to look for a true #1.  

 

...

 

And to be honest, I don't think the Flames are going to find that true #1.  At a reasonable cost.

 

 

First sentence is just so wrong.  They have the makings of a contender.  They have a deadly top 3 on defense.  They went from playoffs to basement due to bottom of the league goaltending.  In all honesty, it takes more than one season to turn a backup into a starter.  Look at Bernier and Reimer.  Neither are that great in a starter role yet.  Ortio is no better than they were as backups.  He could take the reins by the end of this coming season if he has a great start to the season.  But that would take a miracle.

 

The last sentence is probably true.  Elliott or Anderssen are probably the best available in trade, but the cost may be too high.

[conundrumed]

I actually agree with this part too, he isn't ready to be a true starter.  It's definitely a projection for him now, though.

 

IMHO, had the Flames handled goaltender development better these last few years, he Could likely be ready to be a starter right now.

 

I just don't see why the Flames would choose Now to look for a true #1.  

 

 

they honestly haven't made Any real concerted effort at sourcing a true #1 since Kipper left.  It's been patches the whole way.

 

 

Except....can they honestly find a patch, now, that's going to play better than Ortio anyway?   

 

He's in that grey area.   Where if you choose a Another half-measure, you know Ortio will probably take it from them anyway.

 

And to be honest, I don't think the Flames are going to find that true #1.  At a reasonable cost.

 

So why bother?

Stop hitting enter twice after each sentence lol.

I sure wouldn't argue the point though.

It goes both ways.

Ward, Andersson et. al.

Those aren't answers, they're prayers.

I'm on the fence, I really don't know.

We need wingers, do we need them before G or no?

I'm almost of the mind of, "prioritize the wings".

But many are so hung up on, "we'll draft next yrs #1 RW". The expectation will be ridiculous.

Do you prioritize:

Goalie

Wing

?

[DirtyDeeds]

I actually agree with this part too, he isn't ready to be a true starter.  It's definitely a projection for him now, though.

 

IMHO, had the Flames handled goaltender development better these last few years, he Could likely be ready to be a starter right now.

 

I just don't see why the Flames would choose Now to look for a true #1.  

 

 

they honestly haven't made Any real concerted effort at sourcing a true #1 since Kipper left.  It's been patches the whole way.

 

 

Except....can they honestly find a patch, now, that's going to play better than Ortio anyway?   

 

He's in that grey area.   Where if you choose a Another half-measure, you know Ortio will probably take it from them anyway.

 

And to be honest, I don't think the Flames are going to find that true #1.  At a reasonable cost.

 

So why bother?

Hiller was supposed to be that patch. He was the experienced goaltender to bridge the gap until the Prospects were ready. Last season he played well enough to be considered the goalie again this year too.

 

So I disagree with you that the Flames have not put a concerted effort into looking and acquiring a "patch". They did and came up with Hiller.

 

Instead of waiting for Ortio to step up to the plate and take the starter's role away we simply just can't wait. We need a true starter next season. We can't count on Ortio or Ramo or anyone else to step up, so we have to get one.

 

If Ortio does step up or Gilles down the road then great, we have assets to juggle and play with at that time. If they still falter for any reason, then to not have the starter in our fold would be a huge mistake. It would cost us another season maybe more.

 

I am willing to put up some good young players and picks and prospects(Backlund?? 2nd round picks?) to get us a true #1 JJ. I am not talking overpaying if the right #1 goaltender can be found.

 

for example: Bishop I would pay a lot for. He is elite among tops in the league, big  big body, and in his prime. I don't think he will be affected too much by the new equipment sizes.

[AlbertaBoy12]

I dont think the flames would be so bad with orito and ramo in net next season. Ramo showed us what he can do from christmas onto the time he got injured. While im not saying hes the next coming of kipper, he showed us that he could give us league average goaltending during that time. If he is not looking for a ridiculous contract I bring him back as the starter with ortio as backup. I might replace jordan sigalet as goaltending coach though, as I dont think he has a clue. The only way I make a trade for Andersson or Elliote is if the price is low, which I doubt it will be. Bishop is another example as long as the right trade comes along.

[conundrumed]

Hiller was supposed to be that patch. He was the experienced goaltender to bridge the gap until the Prospects were ready. Last season he played well enough to be considered the goalie again this year too.

 

So I disagree with you that the Flames have not put a concerted effort into looking and acquiring a "patch". They did and came up with Hiller.

 

Instead of waiting for Ortio to step up to the plate and take the starter's role away we simply just can't wait. We need a true starter next season. We can't count on Ortio or Ramo or anyone else to step up, so we have to get one.

 

If Ortio does step up or Gilles down the road then great, we have assets to juggle and play with at that time. If they still falter for any reason, then to not have the starter in our fold would be a huge mistake. It would cost us another season maybe more.

 

I am willing to put up some good young players and picks and prospects(Backlund?? 2nd round picks?) to get us a true #1 JJ. I am not talking overpaying if the right #1 goaltender can be found.

 

for example: Bishop I would pay a lot for. He is elite among tops in the league, big  big body, and in his prime. I don't think he will be affected too much by the new equipment sizes.

I think I'm agreeing, in that, if we want goaltending, we have to be prepared to pay for it.

I'm thinking maybe that's after next year.

[jjgallow]

I dont think the flames would be so bad with orito and ramo in net next season. Ramo showed us what he can do from christmas onto the time he got injured. While im not saying hes the next coming of kipper, he showed us that he could give us league average goaltending during that time. If he is not looking for a ridiculous contract I bring him back as the starter with ortio as backup. I might replace jordan sigalet as goaltending coach though, as I dont think he has a clue. The only way I make a trade for Andersson or Elliote is if the price is low, which I doubt it will be. Bishop is another example as long as the right trade comes along.

 

We sure like to have philosophical disagreements on here.  

 

But from a practical perspective, this scenario is highly likely.  Maybe the most likely.

 

And it would work out just fine.   Ramo is "good enough".   Without over-paying and losing prospects/cap space.

 

Ortio should naturally overtake him.    If not, Gillies.

 

If not Ortio or Gillies, then...only then, would we have a real issue.   And that's why I want one more strong goalie prospect acquired.   Just for safety.

 

And yes, I also agree with those who "want" a true #1 next season, on some level.   That is, when I don't consider the cost.

I think I'm agreeing, in that, if we want goaltending, we have to be prepared to pay for it.

I'm thinking maybe that's after next year.

 

Most likely.

 

OMG....all of a sudden...people are Agreeing on here!

 

Looks like those last few games Ortio plays matter after all....

[DirtyDeeds]

I dont think the flames would be so bad with orito and ramo in net next season. Ramo showed us what he can do from christmas onto the time he got injured. While im not saying hes the next coming of kipper, he showed us that he could give us league average goaltending during that time. If he is not looking for a ridiculous contract I bring him back as the starter with ortio as backup. I might replace jordan sigalet as goaltending coach though, as I dont think he has a clue. The only way I make a trade for Andersson or Elliote is if the price is low, which I doubt it will be. Bishop is another example as long as the right trade comes along.

I don't want to overpay either. I don't mind paying for the right guy though. A better than average goalie for us would be the best upgrade we could make. Better than a RW, Better than a #4 D, better than a LW.

 

And conundrumed asked:

Do you prioritize:

Goalie

Wing

?

 

Goalie

RW

D

Backup Goalie

LW

[conundrumed]

And conundrumed asked:

 

 

Goalie

RW

D

Backup Goalie

LW

That equals cash, we don't have enough for all.

Why is LW 5th?

[cross16]

No question that goaltending is the number one need for this club. It's actually not even close in my mind. Ortio isn't a starter and IMO doesn't have a starter skill set and without goaltending this is a lottery pick team again next year easy. With average or better goaltending they are a playoff bubble team.

Flames can score goals so I don't see wingers being such an immediate need. They need some more physicality from ther wingers, but I think to get those top line wingers they will need that draft, like most teams do.

Also it was mentioned on Headlines by Elliot Friedman that flames are not expected to be a finalist for Alex Lyon the FA goalie from Yale

[darth_henning]

 

Do you prioritize:

Goalie

Wing

?

 

I agree with Deeds' assessment, but would remove D

 

 

Goalie

RW

D

Backup Goalie

LW

 

We have a very solid top 3. Jokkipakka who's looking like a serviceable 4D, and an expansion draft pending. 

 

I don't load up on another top 4 D right now, we have depth, and we have a few promising prospects. We hold firm on that till after expansion .

 

 

 

 

I dont think the flames would be so bad with orito and ramo in net next season. Ramo showed us what he can do from christmas onto the time he got injured. While im not saying hes the next coming of kipper, he showed us that he could give us league average goaltending during that time. ...

 

The problem is his injury. That's a MAJOR concern. We at this point don't know when he'll be back, or how he'll play once he does. 

 

Ortio is still a somewhat unknown quantity. Yes, he's done well in backup-level playing time this year since call-up. But if Ramo comes back and has a Hiller-esque season? I don't want to risk Ortio being the only replacement option and him not being up to taking the starter's reigns. 

 

We can take a risk on one goalie, but need something steadier for the other. To me that rules out Ramo completely. 

[DirtyDeeds]

That equals cash, we don't have enough for all.

Why is LW 5th?

Because we have a few LW's sitting on the farm that may be able to make the jump next season.

 

I wasn't saying this was a shopping list.. I was saying this is my priority list.

No question that goaltending is the number one need for this club. It's actually not even close in my mind. Ortio isn't a starter and IMO doesn't have a starter skill set and without goaltending this is a lottery pick team again next year easy. With average or better goaltending they are a playoff bubble team.

Flames can score goals so I don't see wingers being such an immediate need. They need some more physicality from ther wingers, but I think to get those top line wingers they will need that draft, like most teams do.

Also it was mentioned on Headlines by Elliot Friedman that flames are not expected to be a finalist for Alex Lyon the FA goalie from Yale

Soon as we go saying stuff like this Cross,  Ortio goes and posts a shutout......

[cross16]

Don't get me wrong I like Ortio and want him to stay. I think he is an NHL goalie I just don't think he is a starter. He can probably be an above avg back up it part of a tandem but I don't see him as a 50 games plus type of goalie. So even including Ortio I would still argue goaltending is easily the biggest weakness on the club right now, mostly because it's such a keyposition.

[darth_henning]

If you're talking about now? definitely agree. But I wouldn't put starter above his ceiling. Not yet anyway. 

 

Goaltending is still the biggest weakness for sure. Its basically why we aren't in playoff contention.