Goaltending

[conundrumed]

As a point of class, my hat goes off to Backstrom, he's had a sensational career on a team that went through countless tough times. But with him in net, they were never a pushover.

Injuries did him no favours on a team bottlenecked with goalies.

He was never drafted, but when signed and forced into the starting role, he was 4 years of epic.

He pushed Kipper to the brink of "who is the best Finnish goalie".

I think it was due to this that the Flames and Wild had epic battles.

 

So truth be told, I do not mind him getting starts with us to close it out. In his prime, he could be devastating.

And another truth be told, do we really think Ortio would have done better vs a much better roster than ours?

One of the big surprises this year imho, "why are the Wild fighting for a playoff spot this late"?

I believe there isn't a top side in the West that is going to be happy with a 1st round Wild matchup.

 

Regardless, kudos to Backstrom for his good faith and positive attitude in trying.

[darth_henning]

I would like to mention that we were told with our acquisition of Hamilton, that our D was on paper, looking to be one of the strongest in the NHL. ( the keywords on paper and looking should be in italics).

 

 

So how did we end up with the worst defensive team in NHL?

 

 

Does this point the big finger directly at our Goaltenders and Goaltending coaches?

 

 

 

Yes it does. 

 

We are 15th in the league in shots against per game. 

 

We are dead last (by a margin) in save percentage. 

 

 

Admittedly our D has not been top-tier as advertised (let down by a poor start, Brodie's injury, and a generally weak bottom pairing until recently), but its about league average. 

 

Which means the fact that our GAA is league worst is squarely on the men between the pipes. 

[cross16]

Goaltending and the PK are the biggest culprits. The d is partly to blame and while shots against isn't bad the flames are ranked around 20th in the league in scoring chances against and high quality scoring chances against. So D does need to take some responsibility but I think the system Hartley employs makes it really tough.

But when you have the worst save percentage in the league and basically the worst PK you are going to likely be last in the GA too. If both of those things got better their ga would too.

[Flyerfan52]

As a point of class, my hat goes off to Backstrom, he's had a sensational career on a team that went through countless tough times. But with him in net, they were never a pushover.

Injuries did him no favours on a team bottlenecked with goalies.

He was never drafted, but when signed and forced into the starting role, he was 4 years of epic.

He pushed Kipper to the brink of "who is the best Finnish goalie".

I think it was due to this that the Flames and Wild had epic battles.

 

So truth be told, I do not mind him getting starts with us to close it out. In his prime, he could be devastating.

And another truth be told, do we really think Ortio would have done better vs a much better roster than ours?

One of the big surprises this year imho, "why are the Wild fighting for a playoff spot this late"?

I believe there isn't a top side in the West that is going to be happy with a 1st round Wild matchup.

 

Regardless, kudos to Backstrom for his good faith and positive attitude in trying.

I agree.

JJ's love affair with Ortio will disagree.

 

JJ, Ortio is not that good. If he is he'll take a qualifier & go for the big pay day next time around. Right now he's still trying to prove he belongs in the NHL.

 

[robrob1974]

I think it's team play overall. Giving up too many grade-A scoring chances is a team thing. Goaltending can do so much, but it's the type of chances that are getting through. 

Albeit, it's the bad goal that also kills too. Instead of being down 2 from the Grade-A chances, you're down 3. That's tough to comeback from. 

 

I like how we all have different views on who's fault it is though. I just think it's bad overall team play, which in part is also the personnel. We don't have the final roster after a rebuild. We are still growing as a team and the team needs a better 3rd  liner and  an almost near overhaul of 4th liners. The 2nd Scoring Line isn't completed yet. 

 

We also need a shut down D in the top 4. It's not hard to play against us. I think that's our problem. Sure we match in hits, but we don't make it harder in our own end for the opposing teams.

[MAC331]

I think it's team play overall. Giving up too many grade-A scoring chances is a team thing. Goaltending can do so much, but it's the type of chances that are getting through. 

Albeit, it's the bad goal that also kills too. Instead of being down 2 from the Grade-A chances, you're down 3. That's tough to comeback from. 

 

I like how we all have different views on who's fault it is though. I just think it's bad overall team play, which in part is also the personnel. We don't have the final roster after a rebuild. We are still growing as a team and the team needs a better 3rd  liner and  an almost near overhaul of 4th liners. The 2nd Scoring Line isn't completed yet. 

 

We also need a shut down D in the top 4. It's not hard to play against us. I think that's our problem. Sure we match in hits, but we don't make it harder in our own end for the opposing teams.

Everything that could go wrong for our D corps did IMO and until lately it was horrendous. Yes Giordano took some time to get going. Brodie's injury was a blow. Hamilton has holes in his game and still does. Wideman has flat out been terrible. Russell was not as effective as last season. Engelland has been the steady eddy. Smid shouldn't even be playing anymore.

 

I like the group we have now more so than what we started with this season.

[robrob1974]

Everything that could go wrong for our D corps did IMO and until lately it was horrendous. Yes Giordano took some time to get going. Brodie's injury was a blow. Hamilton has holes in his game and still does. Wideman has flat out been terrible. Russell was not as effective as last season. Engelland has been the steady eddy. Smid shouldn't even be playing anymore.

I like the group we have now more so than what we started with this season.

They've shown that they could play D from time to time lately, with all of those 2-1 Ortio losses. I do like it more lately, but I still think we have a long way to go. A good mobile shutdown in the Top4 would be perfect. This is why I wanted Hamonic, even at the expense of a Hamilton.

Do you think Hamilton will be a lot like JBo?

I just feel like we have a lot of mobile puck movers that we could use someone who is a bit more defensive.

[kehatch]

Our D struggled a bit early for sure. The Brodie injury didn't help and Giordano took some time to get settled after his extended injury. Smid and Wideman were terrible all year as well.

But outside of the start they have been really good. Giordano and Brodie are one of the top pairings in the NHL. Offensively they are both at a 50 point pace and Giordano will crack 20 goals. Defensively they play big tough minutes and do it very well.

People need to remember that Hamilton is 22 years old. He will crack 40 points this season despite the slow start and limited power play time. I haven't had many issues on his defensive play despite the revolving door of his defensive partner.

Engelland has also been good. As has Jokipakka since joining the team.

I think D is actually an area of strength for the team and has been for most of the season. Our goaltending and PK has been atrocious. We also have only been able to put up two good forward lines with the other two being liabilities when on the ice. D is a 6 man game.

[conundrumed]

They've shown that they could play D from time to time lately, with all of those 2-1 Ortio losses. I do like it more lately, but I still think we have a long way to go. A good mobile shutdown in the Top4 would be perfect. This is why I wanted Hamonic, even at the expense of a Hamilton.

Do you think Hamilton will be a lot like JBo?

I just feel like we have a lot of mobile puck movers that we could use someone who is a bit more defensive.

I really don't think Hamilton will be like JBo in the O end, but likely will in the D end. He relies on reach and positioning because he is not physical, which people like to view negatively, but I don't so much.

 

What happened this yr came right out of camp to preseason and into the season start.

What happened last year? Hot start builds confidence.

What happened this year? The D was downright atrocious, starting with the Captain.

I watched camp and preseason games. Who did I feel most sorry for? Nakladl. He was hung out to dry with everyone of our "regulars". He was likely our best dman, but because everyone was so O-minded, he looked like our worst by stats.

In particular Gio looked horrid. Russell could not stop outletting into traffic, Wideman looked slower than he normally is, Gio was breaking the D zone far too early.

Hamilton was breaking too early too, he gets a pass, because he wasn't a forward in Boston, yet we got waaay overzealous in busting out dmen.

So all of that played into our goalies. You get a good start to the season, confidence builds across the board, like last season.

You don't, and EVERYONE starts 2nd-guessing themselves, like a disease.

Hartley kept forcing it imho, and did more harm than good. But the 1 thing I hold against Hartley is not giving Nakladl a chance.

He has a bomb and he's physical, much better than Wideman because he's stable on D. Even in scant call-ups, he'd watch from the pressbox.

No doubt in my mind he has the hardest shot on the roster, and his D doesn't hurt you.

I saw that in preseason, we're only seeing it now. I have a big problem with that.

Always given, never earned...

[robrob1974]

For me, I want to be harder to play against. Something I notice is we don't respond to players running the goalies or taking liberties in front of the net.

With other teams we are always roughed up after play in front of their net.

[MAC331]

They've shown that they could play D from time to time lately, with all of those 2-1 Ortio losses. I do like it more lately, but I still think we have a long way to go. A good mobile shutdown in the Top4 would be perfect. This is why I wanted Hamonic, even at the expense of a Hamilton.

Do you think Hamilton will be a lot like JBo?

I just feel like we have a lot of mobile puck movers that we could use someone who is a bit more defensive.

I don't think you ever give up on trying to get a player such as Hamonic and his contract however not at the expense of Hamilton. If we could unload Wideman, Smid and Engelland BT could try and put a deal together with NYI.

Hamilton is not perfect and yes is another big player that doesn't play big but has other good attributes. My main beef is him getting beat to the outside, he isn't very good at anticipating the timing and need to turn and get back. He really needs to work on that aspect of his game.

Could you imagine: Giordano & Hamonic and Brodie and Hamilton and Jokipakka & Nakladal, this would be an awesome defense.

[kehatch]

I don't think you ever give up on trying to get a player such as Hamonic and his contract however not at the expense of Hamilton. If we could unload Wideman, Smid and Engelland BT could try and put a deal together with NYI.

Hamilton is not perfect and yes is another big player that doesn't play big but has other good attributes. My main beef is him getting beat to the outside, he isn't very good at anticipating the timing and need to turn and get back. He really needs to work on that aspect of his game.

Could you imagine: Giordano & Hamonic and Brodie and Hamilton and Jokipakka & Nakladal, this would be an awesome defense.

 

Except it would take a lot of assets to acquire Hamonic and we can only protect 3D a year from now at the draft lottery.  

[DirtyDeeds]

Except it would take a lot of assets to acquire Hamonic and we can only protect 3D a year from now at the draft lottery.  

Also I don't think we have the budget to bring another top D into the Flames. This would leave nothing for both the RW & Goaltending we need  much more.

[darth_henning]

Everything that could go wrong for our D corps did IMO and until lately it was horrendous. Yes Giordano took some time to get going. Brodie's injury was a blow. Hamilton has holes in his game and still does. Wideman has flat out been terrible. Russell was not as effective as last season. Engelland has been the steady eddy. Smid shouldn't even be playing anymore.

 

I like the group we have now more so than what we started with this season.

 

Basically this, and others have gone into more detail on the same.

We ere hampered by several injuries, Hamilton's acclimitization and 4 not great contracts. That will improve somewhat next season, but really is still a work in progress.

 

I don't think you ever give up on trying to get a player such as Hamonic and his contract however not at the expense of Hamilton. If we could unload Wideman, Smid and Engelland BT could try and put a deal together with NYI.

Hamilton is not perfect and yes is another big player that doesn't play big but has other good attributes. My main beef is him getting beat to the outside, he isn't very good at anticipating the timing and need to turn and get back. He really needs to work on that aspect of his game.

Could you imagine: Giordano & Hamonic and Brodie and Hamilton and Jokipakka & Nakladal, this would be an awesome defense.

That would indeed be an amazing defence. Potentially the best in the league.

But come expansion we'd be guarunteed to lose one of our top 4.

We can only protect 3. If we go to protect 4 then we wind up exposing forwards we can't afford to lose.

I'd love to get him, but its the wrong time to go after him. I think Jokipakka can become that mobile, defence first player we need. And he and Hamilton are similar ages and can grow together.

[MAC331]

Except it would take a lot of assets to acquire Hamonic and we can only protect 3D a year from now at the draft lottery.  

There ya go and I'm not sure we have the assets anyways. BTW I don't think you use the upcoming expansion as an excuse

 

Also I don't think we have the budget to bring another top D into the Flames. This would leave nothing for both the RW & Goaltending we need  much more.

Depends how they go about getting a goalie or RW. They could go like STL two at 2.5M a piece. RW could be filled by draft and a trade for a player no yet making big dollars. There will always be offsets required depending on where a GM decides to spend his money.

 

Also I don't think we have the budget to bring another top D into the Flames. This would leave nothing for both the RW & Goaltending we need  much more.

[darth_henning]

Depends how they go about getting a goalie or RW. They could go like STL two at 2.5M a piece. RW could be filled by draft and a trade for a player no yet making big dollars. There will always be offsets required depending on where a GM decides to spend his money.

Assuming the 14 mil for the John-ahan pairing that we all expect, Colborne for an optomistic 1.5 and filling RW with the lowest cost options (draft and two ELC) there's no way we have the money to afford Hamonic without clearing salary with any kind of decent upgrade in goal.

Unless we manage to clear Wideman+

[MAC331]

Assuming the 14 mil for the John-ahan pairing that we all expect, Colborne for an optomistic 1.5 and filling RW with the lowest cost options (draft and two ELC) there's no way we have the money to afford Hamonic without clearing salary with any kind of decent upgrade in goal.

Unless we manage to clear Wideman+

That is a given, we need to clear out a lot of redundant salary otherwise you likely can't even consider Hamonic.

[conundrumed]

That is a given, we need to clear out a lot of redundant salary otherwise you likely can't even consider Hamonic.

Why consider Hamonic whether we can or not?

Has no one noticed that our forward ranks are a very rickety scaffold that needs the attention?

Oh. here's Hamilton, oh, you want Hamonic too, no problem.

boarding that, hey forwards, here's Ryan Johannson.

Done with the D spending, Wideman or not.

[jjgallow]

Our D struggled a bit early for sure. The Brodie injury didn't help and Giordano took some time to get settled after his extended injury. Smid and Wideman were terrible all year as well.

But outside of the start they have been really good. Giordano and Brodie are one of the top pairings in the NHL. Offensively they are both at a 50 point pace and Giordano will crack 20 goals. Defensively they play big tough minutes and do it very well.

People need to remember that Hamilton is 22 years old. He will crack 40 points this season despite the slow start and limited power play time. I haven't had many issues on his defensive play despite the revolving door of his defensive partner.

Engelland has also been good. As has Jokipakka since joining the team.

I think D is actually an area of strength for the team and has been for most of the season. Our goaltending and PK has been atrocious. We also have only been able to put up two good forward lines with the other two being liabilities when on the ice. D is a 6 man game.

 

I think that when the offense isn't really there yet, and the goaltending is horrendous, it makes defence look "strong".

 

But does bad goaltending and inadequate offence really make our defence "strong", or just not as bad, as our other areas?

 

We have a young forward core and little to worry about up there.

 

In terms of defencemen young enough to be top line guys on a future cup winning team:

 

We've got 4 goals accounted for (T.J. Brodie).       If you count Hamilton (not a gaurantee), 14.

 

 

I can understand why the consensus is that our defence is "good", or "not bad".   

 

I can understand why, currently, this season, it's not our biggest issue.

 

In terms of our future, though, I don't think there's a single position where we have so many unanswered questions.  Even in goal, we've got Gillies.  Who still comes with a starter projection.  For all we know, we don't actually have an issue in net.  It's the uncertainty there which is an issue.

 

At defence...we kind of Know we have a problem.   Unless Giordano ages like Lidstrom (don't count on it), or ALL our B-level D prospects overachieve to A-level....   unless something Unexpected happens....D is our most certain future hole.

 

And, the hardest to fix.  (Hamilton trade was a great start, if he keeps going where he's going.  But not enough on its own)

[darth_henning]

I think its unfair to say that D is our bigest hole.

 

Gio will age down the lineup for sure, but will still be top 4 for another 4-6 years.

 

Brodie and Hamilton are 25 and 22 respectively. 

 

Jokkipakka is looking like a strong 5 to decent 4. 

 

Kulak, Culkin, Wotherspoon and Nakladal are all bottom pair ready or close. 

 

Anderson and Kylington are likely top 4 and will be ready in 2-3 years to start o the second pairing. 

 

D is by far our strongest part of the system. 

[cross16]

I think people need to move off Hamonic. I get it because Apparantly he wants to play here but spending assets to get him isn't going to make a difference to the core. I'm convinced the talent is already there, the system, execution and goaltending need to get better not the external talent. Spend the assets on goaltending and top 6 forward not another Dman.

[420since1974]

Another Top 4 D is 3rd on my wish list (we can only protect 3 at expansion anyways).

 

A starting goaltender is priority #1, a Top 6 winger would be next.

 

I'm only seeing enough Cap Space for that goalie next season, the rest will have to wait a year.

 

With 5 veteran contracts expiring, there will be around $16M available in 2017/2018 with only Bennett, Ferland, Gillies, & Yokipakka needing new contracts.

[MAC331]

Another Top 4 D is 3rd on my wish list (we can only protect 3 at expansion anyways).

 

A starting goaltender is priority #1, a Top 6 winger would be next.

 

I'm only seeing enough Cap Space for that goalie next season, the rest will have to wait a year.

 

With 5 veteran contracts expiring, there will be around $16M available in 2017/2018 with only Bennett, Ferland, Gillies, & Yokipakka needing new contracts.

There is a lot of mention about protecting only 3 D but can I ask if it is a given the expansion team has to take a defenseman from each team or how does this work ?

I think people need to move off Hamonic. I get it because Apparantly he wants to play here but spending assets to get him isn't going to make a difference to the core. I'm convinced the talent is already there, the system, execution and goaltending need to get better not the external talent. Spend the assets on goaltending and top 6 forward not another Dman.

 

I think people need to move off Hamonic. I get it because Apparantly he wants to play here but spending assets to get him isn't going to make a difference to the core. I'm convinced the talent is already there, the system, execution and goaltending need to get better not the external talent. Spend the assets on goaltending and top 6 forward not another Dman.

I think the logical steps would be to solve the goaltending and RW through the draft and/or trade, then see what is happening with Hamonic. Also as mentioned there would have to be a lot of salary cleared for the team to afford him.

[420since1974]

"There is a lot of mention about protecting only 3 D but can I ask if it is a given the expansion team has to take a defenseman from each team or how does this work ?"

 

I don't think so, as every team can only lose one player to each expansion team.

 

 

"I think the logical steps would be to solve the goaltending and RW through the draft and/or trade, then see what is happening with Hamonic. Also as mentioned there would have to be a lot of salary cleared for the team to afford him."

 

Agreed.

[jjgallow]

I think its unfair to say that D is our bigest hole.

 

Gio will age down the lineup for sure, but will still be top 4 for another 4-6 years.

 

Brodie and Hamilton are 25 and 22 respectively. 

 

Jokkipakka is looking like a strong 5 to decent 4. 

 

Kulak, Culkin, Wotherspoon and Nakladal are all bottom pair ready or close. 

 

Anderson and Kylington are likely top 4 and will be ready in 2-3 years to start o the second pairing. 

 

D is by far our strongest part of the system. 

 

 

So out of that, who do we have for our top line?   You've pointed out that it's not Giordano.

 

I don't see T.J. Brodie up there.   He would be one of the first 4-goal scorers on an NHL top line.

 

Hamilton maybe?    

 

I don't see any player or prospect in our system capable of assuming Gio's spot at any point in their career.   And someone Will have to.

 

So, our first line LD position, imho, is in more uncertain shape than our position at net (which at least has Gilles.  and I'll throw in Ortio).

 

 

Am I missing someone there?   Is that not kind of an important position?

 

 

 

On our 2nd D line, I think we can rely on T.J. Brodie  for LD for some time, yes.

 

Who do we have for our 2nd line on RD?     All I see with a real shot is Rasmus Andersson with any sort of projection to that position.

 

Rasmus, quite frankly, is below average size for that position, and struggled somewhat this year.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=86137

 

 

That's 2 open spots out of 4 that I'm not able to account for in our future.  Including a first line spot.

 

Like, that I don't see any good outcome for, given our current pipeline.

 

Maybe Gio falls into the 2nd LD?  for a while anyway.