Goaltending

[s4xon]

Gillies is the future for goaltending in Calgary.  McDonald may be a quality AHL'er, a NHL backup or a starter, but that is years away.

He's still in that voodoo age for goalies.  

 

But we can't very well expect Gillies to factor into Calgary this season.  Next year maybe (hopefully).  It would be nice to have a set of developed goalies that can give us better than league average goaltending.

 

Gillies has had the best development trajectory he could possibly have.  Offload him onto an NCAA team for 4 years and let him come into his own.  Then when he's pro, they place him onto a brand new AHL team and give him the reins in net.

 

I hope he's down there for another year next season with a few games up.  Literally no rush.

 

I've always seen Ortio as a better Irving.  Similar height and size, flashes of brilliance (aka shutting out the Canucks last season) but just hasn't stepped up and taken anything from anyone in his tenure with the team.

 

I still have pretty high hopes for McDonald.

[travel_dude]

Gillies has had the best development trajectory he could possibly have.  Offload him onto an NCAA team for 4 years and let him come into his own.  Then when he's pro, they place him onto a brand new AHL team and give him the reins in net.

 

I hope he's down there for another year next season with a few games up.  Literally no rush.

 

I've always seen Ortio as a better Irving.  Similar height and size, flashes of brilliance (aka shutting out the Canucks last season) but just hasn't stepped up and taken anything from anyone in his tenure with the team.

 

I still have pretty high hopes for McDonald.

 

He only played 3 years in the NCAA.  We would have signed him after year 2, but he struggled at the WJC and end of season. Burke suggested that he go back and he also thought the same.

 

He's still pretty young by goaltender standards.  No point in rushing him, unless he is absolute magic in the AHL and we have a major goaltending shortage at the end of this season.  You can reward him with a few games.

[jjgallow]

Just wanted to express a bit of general dissapointment at the sweeping statements made here about Ortio.

As soon as he got any playing time at all, people were quick to proclaim that they never believed in him and proudly explain the reasons why.

Those of us who do have faith in our goaltending prospects also knew he would have a rocky start. Like any new goaltender who was thrown into the NHL cold. And, he's really done no worse than Ramo.

The organization still struggles with goaltender development. Unfortunate how many fans do too. Something to consider. ....strapping on pads in Canada does not make one unique. Or am expert judge of NHL goalie prospects after two games. Any actual expert will tell you two games means next to nothing.

[cccsberg]

More importantly, Ramo did not let in any stinkers.  Sure 4 got past him but none were the type that made you say OMG.  As far as the fluky goal goes to win the game, 100% of the shots you don’t make never go in, it’s never a bad idea to direct the puck at the net.  Byfug got one like that against us a couple weeks ago, and you see other players trying it all the time.  A very high percentage of all NHL goals could be considered fluky in some way or another.

Agree, you never know what's going to happen with the puck, bounces, rebounds, tiny holes in the goalie, etc.  Even if its one of Backlund's muffins from the blue line, most of the time the goalie catches it and its an offensive zone face-off.  Keep shooting.

Just wanted to express a bit of general dissapointment at the sweeping statements made here about Ortio.

As soon as he got any playing time at all, people were quick to proclaim that they never believed in him and proudly explain the reasons why.

Those of us who do have faith in our goaltending prospects also knew he would have a rocky start. Like any new goaltender who was thrown into the NHL cold. And, he's really done no worse than Ramo.

The organization still struggles with goaltender development. Unfortunate how many fans do too. Something to consider. ....strapping on pads in Canada does not make one unique. Or am expert judge of NHL goalie prospects after two games. Any actual expert will tell you two games means next to nothing.

Ortio has played pretty great overall for the chances he's had with the Flames.  Think last year especially.  I'm not down on him and believe he'll get more chances to earn his keep.  Pretty much so far this season the team has been playing poorly, its hardly just the goalies...

[kehatch]

Just wanted to express a bit of general dissapointment at the sweeping statements made here about Ortio.

As soon as he got any playing time at all, people were quick to proclaim that they never believed in him and proudly explain the reasons why.

Those of us who do have faith in our goaltending prospects also knew he would have a rocky start. Like any new goaltender who was thrown into the NHL cold. And, he's really done no worse than Ramo.

The organization still struggles with goaltender development. Unfortunate how many fans do too. Something to consider. ....strapping on pads in Canada does not make one unique. Or am expert judge of NHL goalie prospects after two games. Any actual expert will tell you two games means next to nothing.

Many if us weren't huge Ortio supporters, as shown through various debates on the subject in the past. I still think the Flames owe it to him and themselves to see what they have in Ortio. But I have never seem him as the future start let for the Flames.

I also don't agree with you on goalie development. You keep pointing your fingers at the Flames. But how many teams anywhere suffer poor goaltending at the NHL level while they patiently wait for a goalie to develop?

I still believe Ortio has a chance this season. I agree it is only two starts. But nobody has written him off. Criticism of his playplay to date is fair though.

[DirtyDeeds]

Just wanted to express a bit of general dissapointment at the sweeping statements made here about Ortio.

As soon as he got any playing time at all, people were quick to proclaim that they never believed in him and proudly explain the reasons why.

Those of us who do have faith in our goaltending prospects also knew he would have a rocky start. Like any new goaltender who was thrown into the NHL cold. And, he's really done no worse than Ramo.

The organization still struggles with goaltender development. Unfortunate how many fans do too. Something to consider. ....strapping on pads in Canada does not make one unique. Or am expert judge of NHL goalie prospects after two games. Any actual expert will tell you two games means next to nothing.

I believe that Ortio was never intended to be up with the Flames this season at least in the mind of BT when he was signed. This is even though he was given a 2-way to 1-way contract for this season. I think the 1-way was given to keep him signed and with the Flames.

 

Last season when he played that small stretch with us it changed things for Ortio a bit. He won all but the last one and he got hurt until the end of the season. His start of last season was slow, and his play coming back after the injury was poor.

 

Part of his development means he has to learn to become a pro and come prepared at the start of the season. I don't think he has learned that from his training camp again this season. BH said he was #3 out of camp and that is how well he played.

 

I don't think you can point fingers at Flames for not developing him right because he was given choices and lots of opportunities the last few seasons.

 

If Ramo/Hiller combo was producing like last season as BT had said then we would not be placing Ortio in this situation where we need wins and he is our last in line to try to solidify this position. It is unfair to put him in this spot but it is also his chance to shine or his opportunity too. We can't baby him and shelter him much longer so he needs to step up soon if not now.

 

This isn't poor development it is just bad timing and poor goaltending all around from all 3 of our goaltenders. 

 

My biggest disappointment is in Hillers performance and the teams D in front of him. Hiller is both the Pro and Vet who should have solidified this position for us and has failed. Ramo has enough experience he should have played better and has not been good either.

 

If none of the above can get a string of wins going then we need to find a goaltender that can. Just look north to Oilers, with their rotating door of goalies, to see how difficult it is to find a decent one.

[travel_dude]

I believe that Ortio was never intended to be up with the Flames this season at least in the mind of BT when he was signed. This is even though he was given a 2-way to 1-way contract for this season. I think the 1-way was given to keep him signed and with the Flames.

 

Last season when he played that small stretch with us it changed things for Ortio a bit. He won all but the last one and he got hurt until the end of the season. His start of last season was slow, and his play coming back after the injury was poor.

 

Part of his development means he has to learn to become a pro and come prepared at the start of the season. I don't think he has learned that from his training camp again this season. BH said he was #3 out of camp and that is how well he played.

 

I don't think you can point fingers at Flames for not developing him right because he was given choices and lots of opportunities the last few seasons.

 

If Ramo/Hiller combo was producing like last season as BT had said then we would not be placing Ortio in this situation where we need wins and he is our last in line to try to solidify this position. It is unfair to put him in this spot but it is also his chance to shine or his opportunity too. We can't baby him and shelter him much longer so he needs to step up soon if not now.

 

This isn't poor development it is just bad timing and poor goaltending all around from all 3 of our goaltenders. 

 

My biggest disappointment is in Hillers performance and the teams D in front of him. Hiller is both the Pro and Vet who should have solidified this position for us and has failed. Ramo has enough experience he should have played better and has not been good either.

 

If none of the above can get a string of wins going then we need to find a goaltender that can. Just look north to Oilers, with their rotating door of goalies, to see how difficult it is to find a decent one.

I don't think you are assessing Hartley's view of goalie depth quite right.  Ortio wasn't the least of 3 in pre-season games.  He played against two mostly NHL rosters with a bare minimum of Flames regulars in front of him.  He went 1/2 with a shutout.

 

I would have to say that Hartley had the goalies rated from last year, much like he did in the Joey MacDonald (part) season.  A vet that played well for him last year is going to be higher on the depth chart than a rookie.  Neither of the top 2 has performed well.  The #3 guy has one cold start.  But he needed to be ready to go 100% mentally.  He should really have agreed to a conditioning stint with the Heat, and he may have been a starter tonight.

[robrob1974]

I dunno, Ramo also got a start with very little NHL roster guys on our side as well.

[travel_dude]

I dunno, Ramo also got a start with very little NHL roster guys on our side as well.

 

I think Ortio face the best competition of the pre-season for an entire game.

 

Ortio's game against Montreal featured some of the worst defense the Flames have played this season.  Ortio has to save at least 2 of the goals.  Same can be said for some of Ramo's games.

[jjgallow]

I agree it is only two starts. But nobody has written him off. Criticism of his playplay to date is fair though.

 

You haven't, I feel some have though.   I have no issues with the criticism of his limited play, just the conclusions that are drawn from it.

[kehatch]

You haven't, I feel some have though. I have no issues with the criticism of his limited play, just the conclusions that are drawn from it.

Fair enough. I am not sure people have though. Hopefully not.

[tmac70]

Problem is the consensus is that he is no better than the 2 we have. Never been an Ortio fan, but I was hopeful. Ortio is not the goalie of the future. There is optimism for Gilles and McDonald, but really a few key stops a game would be nice. So the COL game 5 f--ing goals again. For those who believe Ortio is the next best thing, your setting your up for disappointment.

[daveinoman]

Another stellar performance by the Flames goaltenders. 6 more goals. Perhaps we can trade Ramo for....say a loaf of bread and a litre of milk?

 

[travel_dude]

Trash Ortio if you like, but he has played one game.  It was bad.  It doesn't matter who we have in nets.  We have defensive issues to fix.  42 shots and only 6 blocked shots on top of that.  That is horrendous.  If we had limited the shots to 25, Ramo (even with an 0.878 SA%) would have stopped 22/25.  Anything over 25 on a regular basis is going to lose you games unless you score 3+ goals per game.

[cross16]

I'm not trashing Ortio and I don't feel people are reaching conclusions just based on the 2 games. IMO, the consensus on Ortio on the Forum has been that while alot of people see good things he has alot of questions marks yet to prove. A small, small percentage saw a really bright future but I felt the consensus was always he had more to prove and so far those pepole have been proven right.

 

I also feel that this whole "he got thrown to the wolves after a long break" is a very poor excuse for poor play. Its not like he was hurt and not practicing or something, he was in game shape and at the end of the day this is the NHL. To quote Josh Donaldson, "This isn't the try league, its the get it done league". If he wants to be a pro you cannot use a layoff as an excuse for poor play, which is what we saw in Ortio against MOntreal, poor play. It he wasn't exactly great ok but he was flat out bad against Montreal and I think blaming that on a layoff is stupid IMO and if he wants to be consiidered a pro that he needs to deal with that, use it, and play well irregardless of the circumstances.

 

I'm not writing him off and still think he has the talent to be a starter in the NHL, but he still has a ways to go to actually be a starter and prove he can play in the NHL.

[zima]

Ok I've said it before time to give Gillies a shot what do we have to lose we are capable of bringing him up with out losing him to waivers if we have to shot him back down. At this point perhaps he can do what Ortio did last yr bring the team back from the dead  

[JTech780]

Ok I've said it before time to give Gillies a shot what do we have to lose we are capable of bringing him up with out losing him to waivers if we have to shot him back down. At this point perhaps he can do what Ortio did last yr bring the team back from the dead

Gillies has played a total of 6 pro games. Bringing him up now would be a good way to potentially ruin a very promising prospect. Our issue goes much deeper than goaltending and putting a young untested goalie in when our team defense is as terrible as I have ever seen it, could have a devastating impact on Gillies long term future.

Leave Gillies down in Stockton so he can get the experience he needs and bring him up when he is ready, which isn't now.

[robrob1974]

I think you gotta leave Gillies in the AHL. He needs a lot of games to get used to the pro game.

I came to the conclusion about Ortio last year that I didn't like him. He goes down early and then is required to make glove saves a foot behind his head.

He is predictable.

I saw Kipper when he played for San Jose. They were visiting Vancouver. I sat upper deck but right behind his net for the first and third. They lost 5-3 but I remember wishing the flames had that guy. I don't feel that way with Ortio and never have.

Ortio seems positioned well enough. But his tendency to go to his knees on a windup is troubling to me. The NHL players are too good to leave the top open all the time.

[The_Argus]

Yeah, as a potential future key player, I don't think you even consider throwing Gillies into this mess. The Flames are only going to salvage this season if they improve both their goaltending and defense. The chance that Gillies single-highhandedly turns things around is very low, whereas the chance he gets his confidence shattered is high with the way the Flames are playing defense. Not nearly worth the risk to a team that is still, IMO, rebuilding.

[cross16]

Agreed that calling up Gilles is a bad idea. What to the Flames have to lose? putting a huge dent in Gilles confidence is what they have to lose. He has alot of things to figure out at the AHL level so exposing him at the NHL level leave you no real upside for that move at all. The odds are significantly against him making any sort of positive impact and do not outweigh the potential negatives.

[robrob1974]

If it was just goaltending that has been the issue, but it's a team thing. Not only that, Gillies needs to get games in.

[tincup1]

It's tough even putting Ortio behind this team right now let alone a true rookie like GIllies.  May as well keep coming back to Ramo and Hiller, when he gets healthy.  That D seriously needs to tighten up before anyone can have success in goal.

[travel_dude]

Agreed that calling up Gilles is a bad idea. What to the Flames have to lose? putting a huge dent in Gilles confidence is what they have to lose. He has alot of things to figure out at the AHL level so exposing him at the NHL level leave you no real upside for that move at all. The odds are significantly against him making any sort of positive impact and do not outweigh the potential negatives.

 

The biggest problem righ now is that the AHL schedule has been very light.  B2B games then nothing for a week.  They have played all of 6 games since October 10th.  Gillies needs to play many games before he would be ready to take a callup.

[kehatch]

Apparently Ramo gets the next start. Terrible judgement by the coach. Clearly the coach isn't in the same page as the GM playing the guy that was just off waivers after giving up over 4 goals per game since he was back.

Hate to say it, but if they can't get on the same page fire the coach.

[The_People1]

Apparently Ramo gets the next start. Terrible judgement by the coach. Clearly the coach isn't in the same page as the GM playing the guy that was just off waivers after giving up over 4 goals per game since he was back.

Hate to say it, but if they can't get on the same page fire the coach.

 

Ortio has been horrible though.  One more bad week and his career may be ruined.