Goaltending

[jjgallow]

This is wrong on so many levels. Wow. Look, addressing their goaltender development obligations is EXACTLY what the Flames did last year. They give primo games/minutes to all three of their developing goalies and all had great seasons. In addition, they addressed their TEAM development issues by bringing in a short-term solution for the Flames which helped the team as a whole make a huge leap forward last year. This year they continue that trend with Ortio and whichever of the vets they keep. Next year they can keep Ortio and either bring up Gillies if he's ready, or re-sign a vet for another year.

The only issue is resigning Ramo when it appeared they could trade Hiller to SJS but that fell apart with their trade with Boston. So now we have to choose one of the vets to send down/trade, so what? I'm not seeing that hurt us in any way whatsoever.

 lets hope you're right.

[s4xon]

I agree with your Hiller assessment, and like I said, I'm okay with that.

To assess Ramo and Ortio, it's almost like they're the same guy.

They both cheat off the short side too quickly and they both over-commit too frequently and get scrambling to the point that you wonder if they've lost site of the net.

My biggest concern is, if we are running 1A/1B, I'd prefer 2 goalies with different styles, not 2 of the same.

All 3 have their positives and negatives, it's fairly even.

For me honestly, I prefer Hiller be one of them.

He stabilized it last year, and I believe he's the one that will keep it stable.

Imho, Hartley yanked him from the Anaheim series in Game 1 and turned his back on him. I believe that was a mistake.

At the end of the day, it made zero difference.

Goalies can get angry from a poor start, human nature stuff. They can also come back like a house on fire, but he didn't get the 2nd chance, so who knows. Hartley decided the Ducks knew him too well methinks. I'd have given him a home start.

He got us to the playoffs against all odds, held the fort for the Van series, then Hartley decided not to play him based on 1 start.

Am I mistaken in thinking that?

 

I've found they are complete opposites.  Hiller is very much a square to the shooter kind of goalie, with a Swiss windmill as his glove hand.  Ramo, I believe has a better reaction time, but tends to be the one to overcompensate when pushing off left to right.

 

Some are super high on Ortio.  I'd like to see him get a shot as part of the tandem for the year, however, I still don't know if he's quite ready yet.  There are some games I think he's got traces of Kipper in him (he does train with Kip in the offseason), and others where he still looks like a complete rook.

[travel_dude]

I've found they are complete opposites.  Hiller is very much a square to the shooter kind of goalie, with a Swiss windmill as his glove hand.  Ramo, I believe has a better reaction time, but tends to be the one to overcompensate when pushing off left to right.

 

Some are super high on Ortio.  I'd like to see him get a shot as part of the tandem for the year, however, I still don't know if he's quite ready yet.  There are some games I think he's got traces of Kipper in him (he does train with Kip in the offseason), and others where he still looks like a complete rook.

 

I think there is only so much Ortio can do at the AHL level.  He has proven he can win in the NHL.  Strictly as a backup, he is 100% ready to be here.   I have confidence he could win 3/4 of games a backup would play, probably 15/20.  With that in mind, we have to be sold on our starter.  I don't think we can run a 1a/1b this year.  Hiller and Ramo were okay with it last year, but you can't keep saying there is no true #1.  It devalues both goalies.  

[robrob1974]

He proved he can win, but only in a small sample. What is he like when the playoff race is tight? Or has played a number of games and wear and tear sets in?

[robrob1974]

Ortio was like Ramo and Hiller. After playing a few games his play deteriorated.

[cross16]

I agree. You can't really say he has "proven" he can win in the NHL when he has only played 15 NHL games. Sample size is too small and I also agree that Ortio tends to start very strong and then really tail off.

 

I like Ortio and I think he has the skill set to be an NHL starter but he needs to prove it. So far, I think he's come into camp and taken a step (last year I thought he was awful in camp) so that is a positive but he needs to keep proving himself. I wouldn't love losing Ortio on waivers but I think an opion that no one seems to want to mention is trading Ortio. If the Flames don't feel Ortio is a long term starter, and thats a fair assesment IMO, it may be Ortio who gets traded and they run with Ramo/HIller again. I think its an unlikely option because it sure sounds like the Flames want to see what they ahve in Ortio which I think is smart.

[travel_dude]

I agree. You can't really say he has "proven" he can win in the NHL when he has only played 15 NHL games. Sample size is too small and I also agree that Ortio tends to start very strong and then really tail off.

 

...

 

Proven as in he has won the majority of game he played as a backup.  We never had that in the past.  

[robrob1974]

But that's 15 games over how many seasons? And he played ok in the first of his games. He really only showed promise last year in 6 or 7 starts.

That's putting all our eggs in one basket. Or counting chickens, which ever analogy you want to use.

Personally, I think Ortio goes down early and bring a shorter goalie it's not a good trait. NHL teams pick up on it and begin to expose the weakness up top. But we will see.

[DirtyDeeds]

One of the newer styles of goaltending is going down and laying the pads down flat along edges, to cover the bottom of net.

 

Hiller talked last year about this very style.(forget where I saw/heard this).

 

It works with tall goalies because they cover the most important along the bottom of the ice section and can cover a good portion of the upper parts of net.

[robrob1974]

The thing is though, Ortio isn't on the taller side of tall goalies.

I see him going down and then reacting, catching pucks behind his head.

[kehatch]

I don't think there are that many all that high on Ortio. I am certainly not. But he is ready to be given a shot and he has earned it so far this preseason. We will lose him for waivers. Playing him to see what he has makes sense.

[robrob1974]

I am on board with that. We do need to see what he will be in the NHL.

Maybe signing Ramo to his contract allows them to send him to the AHL, getting him through waivers?

Who would pick him up at his salary?

[travel_dude]

But that's 15 games over how many seasons? And he played ok in the first of his games. He really only showed promise last year in 6 or 7 starts.

That's putting all our eggs in one basket. Or counting chickens, which ever analogy you want to use.

Personally, I think Ortio goes down early and bring a shorter goalie it's not a good trait. NHL teams pick up on it and begin to expose the weakness up top. But we will see.

 

His first 4 games he had 4 wins, then we played Anaheim.  Nuff said there.  His next game was game #82 with most of the regulars sitting out.

 

The previous year he played 9 games, of which the worst was 4 goals scored against him in a season where we were bottom 6 in the league.  Still a 4 and 4 record.  How are you going to ever know what you have at the NHL level if you waive him.  He will get claimed.  And he will be a backup for some other team.

 

I all for mitigating risks by not trading Hiller or Ramo, but waiving Ortio does nothing to improve our goaltending.  It then relies upon a well-rounded but aging #1 and an unknown-ceiling, often injured goalie.

[conundrumed]

I all for mitigating risks by not trading Hiller or Ramo, but waiving Ortio does nothing to improve our goaltending.  It then relies upon a well-rounded but aging #1 and an unknown-ceiling, often injured goalie.

 

But.....you take the best 2.

I'd be lying if I said he's better than either of Ramo or Hiller atm.

 

So I just hope my belief is correct. Which is EVERYONE is busy worrying about losing cuts on waivers.

You don't really wanna be the guy to take a waive from a camp cut without calling that team's GM first.

Sure the move is there, but I'm sure it must be heavily-frowned upon by peers.

I think Ortio clears and will be surprised if he doesn't.

We're willing to pay him 1 way to develop another year.

I like that, that's best for him, best for us.

If it goes to hell in a handbasket, Ramo or Hiller get traded, he's got a seat.

All 3's contracts run out next year. We wanted competition, we've got it in net!

[kehatch]

But.....you take the best 2.

I'd be lying if I said he's better than either of Ramo or Hiller atm.

So I just hope my belief is correct. Which is EVERYONE is busy worrying about losing cuts on waivers.

You don't really wanna be the guy to take a waive from a camp cut without calling that team's GM first.

Sure the move is there, but I'm sure it must be heavily-frowned upon by peers.

I think Ortio clears and will be surprised if he doesn't.

We're willing to pay him 1 way to develop another year.

I like that, that's best for him, best for us.

If it goes to hell in a handbasket, Ramo or Hiller get traded, he's got a seat.

All 3's contracts run out next year. We wanted competition, we've got it in net!

It's a "what have you done for me lately" league. This preseason the goalie who is earning the spot is Ortio.

The Flames had average goal tending last season. Ortio has a low bar to reach and he could very well exceed it. There is zero reason to risk him on waivers imo.

[conundrumed]

It's a "what have you done for me lately" league. This preseason the goalie who is earning the spot is Ortio.

The Flames had average goal tending last season. Ortio has a low bar to reach and he could very well exceed it. There is zero reason to risk him on waivers imo.

I guess we'll see.

It's either Ramo or Ortio goes for me then.

Hiller's 1A in my books.

He's done what Ramo had a year jump to do.

The difference, for me, is the dmen know how Hiller will play it. He's consistent.

Don't under rate that, Kipper left we instantly saw instability.

Hiller is here to keep it stable.

That's what we're paying him to do and I have no complaints.

2 years, perfect term.

He's our starter this year, as far as I'm concerned. Having a fine camp, which seems to be getting overlooked.

[Khrox]

He's our starter this year, as far as I'm concerned. Having a fine camp, which seems to be getting overlooked.

 

All our goalies are having good camps.

[travel_dude]

But.....you take the best 2.

I'd be lying if I said he's better than either of Ramo or Hiller atm.

 

So I just hope my belief is correct. Which is EVERYONE is busy worrying about losing cuts on waivers.

You don't really wanna be the guy to take a waive from a camp cut without calling that team's GM first.

Sure the move is there, but I'm sure it must be heavily-frowned upon by peers.

I think Ortio clears and will be surprised if he doesn't.

We're willing to pay him 1 way to develop another year.

I like that, that's best for him, best for us.

If it goes to hell in a handbasket, Ramo or Hiller get traded, he's got a seat.

All 3's contracts run out next year. We wanted competition, we've got it in net!

 

Tampa already picked up a player off waivers.  All GM's watch the wire for guys they are interested in.  Colborne was traded becuase the Leafs knew a big center wouldn't pass through it.  The Flames made an offer that was better than nothing at all.

The Leafs picked up Erixon, we got Schlemko....the list goes on.  Panik picked up by the Leafs...

 

Ortio is making league minimum.  Like $600k minimum.  What is the risk to another team by picking him up?  They use him and if he doesn't work out, offer him back to the Flames.  Teams with a budget and lots of waiver exempt player could make room for him easily.  A rebuilding team gets a quality prospect already developed.  That is what a lot of people forget.  He is a highly rated goalie prospect that could easily play in the NHL.  Very low risk to a claim.  Huge potential upside.

[kehatch]

I guess we'll see.

It's either Ramo or Ortio goes for me then.

Hiller's 1A in my books.

He's done what Ramo had a year jump to do.

The difference, for me, is the dmen know how Hiller will play it. He's consistent.

Don't under rate that, Kipper left we instantly saw instability.

Hiller is here to keep it stable.

That's what we're paying him to do and I have no complaints.

2 years, perfect term.

He's our starter this year, as far as I'm concerned. Having a fine camp, which seems to be getting overlooked.

Your over rating Hiller's impact. He is an average goalie that has been average. He has one more year under contract. He was brought in as a stop gap. Letting one of your young guys go on waivers to keep the average stop gap doesn't make sense.

I am not advocating Hiller over Ramo. I don't have a strong preference. But waiving Ortio to keep two veteran stop gaps for one more season would be a terrible mistake that the Flames won't make.

As for Hiller vs Ramo, I agree that Hiller is more stable and safe. I think Ramo is better when he is on but poor when he isn't. Personally I still think Ramo could improve. Goalies are voodoo and Ramo could be the next Dubnyk. I think we know what we have in Hiller. So I pick Ramo over Hiller. But I wouldn't have am issue with keeping Hiller over Ramo either.

If Ortio had a terrible camp I would waive him. He probably wouldn't get claimed and he would use the development time. But he has been really good in the preseason. You can't put him on waivers.

[JTech780]

Preseason save %:

Joni Ortio (47/48) .979

Jonas Hiller (55/57) .965

Karri Ramo (54/57) .947

[travel_dude]

Preseason save %:

Joni Ortio (47/48) .979

Jonas Hiller (55/57) .965

Karri Ramo (54/57) .947

 

Number alone don't tell the story.  Ramo face the Canuck A team and Hiller faced the B team.  Ramo faced the Avs B team tonight.

 

All said and done, they have all looked good so far.  Three goalies, no waiting.  

[robrob1974]

Both Hiller and Ramo played last night. Hiller started and Ramo finished.

[The_People1]

So we shutout the Avs two times in two pre-season games. 

 

Who's awesome?

[darth_henning]

Ortio has, on the basis of an admittedly tiny sample, the most promise of the three of them over last year and this pre-season. 

 

Those numbers may (likely?) not be representative of how he will play long term, but are an encouraging sign. 

 

However, he also has the least experience, and probably can't be thrust into a number 1 role at the start of this season. He may well take that position by the end of the season (like Gaudreau took #1 LW last season), but only time will tell. 

 

To me, that means dealing Hiller or Ramo. I don't like keeping three goalies, even if it isn't clear who the real #1 is. Hiller probably has the higher return, and it would look a little bad to trade Ramo after re-signing him over the summer, but there isn't really space to demote him. But by contrast, Hiller is also the most reliable of the three historically. 

[travel_dude]

Both Hiller and Ramo played last night. Hiller started and Ramo finished.

 

Temporary brain fart.  

 

So Ramo has played better competition  (Oilers in EDM, Canucks A team) than Hiller.  All goalies are Voodoo.