Goaltending

[JTech780]

What makes Ramo good is that athleticism. He needs to put some stickum on his pants, though, as he slides way out of the crease.

He is a good 1st and 2nd shot goalie, but you need to clear the puck or the player. He was getting run too much and had players hacking away at the puck in the crease.

What makes Hiller good is the calmness that he brings. He stops 95% of the pucks that are shot, but tends to get beat when he is deep. He moves too little. You can beat Hiller in close, up high.

Orti is a little of both. I was a little worried at how he looked in game 82. He was the same in Addy in the first month. Wonder if he smokes in between practices like Kippper did?

Hiller was PO'd the end of the season, when he lost the net to Ramo. The friendly rivalry was gone, as if Hiller figured he was getting the Anaheim treatment. I am fine keeping whoever is the best two at TC, but also believe that Hiller or Ramo is the best option to waive. Moreso Hiller. Unless a team lost a goalie in pre-season, I doubt Hiller would ever get claimed. Teams are trying to fit their rosters under the cap, and might have to waive/trade another player if they wanted to claim Hiller. BT would be aware of the roster situations, so he would likely keep three goalies if he was worried about losing one to the waiver wire.

Both Hiller and Ramo have their warts there is no doubt about that, if we could blend them together we would end up with a very good goalie. Take Ramo's athleticism and battle in the crease and add it to Hiller's calmness and strong positioning and you have the skills to be a strong goalie in this league.

Ortio seems to have the athletic ability but also doesn't over play the puck. The biggest thing for him is just experience and consistency. He was still injured in the last game of the season, I believe it was a high ankle sprain which takes a long time to really recover from. In the exit interviews he said he would be spending the entire off season rehabing from that injury.

[DirtyDeeds]

The trade Hiller stuff gets a little long in the tooth. He played very well for us last season and kept us in games as you need your goalie to do.

I wonder what Hiller has to do, or if a lot of people just don't like him?

I realize he's ufa next year, but I don't think that's reason to throw him under the bus. If he plays as well as last year, do we throw caution to the wind and expect Ortio/Gillies to just slide right in?

There is a possibility it would be a setback. A setback in net would be devastating.

I hate seeing the "Anaheim series" used as the excuse and wash everything before that away. Anaheim, as a team, was better than us, that's why we lost. We weren't supposed to even be there, does Hiller get any credit for that??

He's been a solid signing for us, stability in net goes a long way.

^^^

• He was just fine for us as a #1 goaltender just about all year.
• He pretty much carried us into the playoffs as I think without him we would not have made it. We had injury problems with no decent backup support for him.
• He was just fine for us in the playoffs until we ran into the Ducks......

 

 

 

We still have many years of Kipper on our minds. For some we are still looking for the Kipper replacement.

 

Frankly no one will ever replace the memories Kipper gave us and like the beautiful Ex who passed away, we have some memories to deal with before we can move on....

[MAC331]

The Flames received average goal tending last season. Sure both Ramo and Hiller when on runs, but every NHL goalie did. So did Ortio to start his call up.

When you look at the entire season our tending was just okay. We give a lot of credit to the goalies, but really it was our scoring that got us into the playoffs.

Hiller isn't going to progress from okay. He is what he is. I would rather stick with a goalie that could develop into our next starter.

You underestimate what a better D cops can do for goalies. Example Dubnyk in MINN.

[s4xon]

You underestimate what a better D cops can do for goalies. Example Dubnyk in MINN.

 

Well, it seems we got our wish.  We are deep on D and we have quite the lineup outside the men's room for the last spots.

As for the goaltenders, who would you say is going to be the Flames A/B and the Stockton A/B?  Also, do the Flames bring up Ortio and how long till they trade Hiller/Ramo?  Still nothing solidified.  It'll be interesting to see what training camp brings.

[jjgallow]

Well, it seems we got our wish.  We are deep on D and we have quite the lineup outside the men's room for the last spots.

As for the goaltenders, who would you say is going to be the Flames A/B and the Stockton A/B?  Also, do the Flames bring up Ortio and how long till they trade Hiller/Ramo?  Still nothing solidified.  It'll be interesting to see what training camp brings.

 

Every team is deep on D, opening night.  Everybody's got a plan.

 

When we find out who meets expections, who doesn't, and who stays injury free, that's when we can say whether we're deep or not, imho.

 

On paper, our D is better this year.  But I believe kehatch took our weeker goaltending into account when he called out tending "average".

 

Ramo's Goals against was 42nd in the league.   Hiller's average was 59th.   Guys we let go, like Reto Bera, beat them both.

 

Ortio the "unsure rookie", was 50th overall, for comparison.

 

"Average" would be around 15th overall.

 

Hamilton was a great trade.  But Hamilton is not going to bring Hiller to 15th overall from 59th.

 

He's just not.

 

"Average" was a very fair comment, that took out defense into account.  If anything, it was giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

Ortio should not have a problem taking over this year, imho.   the issue, is that "average" isn't good enough either.  We need top 5, or top 10.  Hiller/Ramo will never get us there.    We have to hope that Ortio or Gillies or Macdonald might.  None of them are at that level yet.

[Wreckening]

Outside of Gillies I'm not sold on our goaltending. I lean towards a Ramo/Ortio tandem but I don't see them as the future. I wouldn't be surprised that if we don't see a goalie run away with the starter's job half way through the season a trade could be very possible for a bona-fide number 1.

[robrob1974]

If the Flames can improve their possession numbers that changes a lot. Yes the goalies were average, but the team was playing in their own end for the majority of the time in every game. What could their numbers look like if the team plays better?

I don't think it is fair to say they're average when the team play is well below average.

Since this is the case then i think our goalies did awesome! The numbers don't lie, our team play stunk in possession. Odds are, the goalies will let in more if the other team has the puck more.

[travel_dude]

Every team is deep on D, opening night.  Everybody's got a plan.

 

When we find out who meets expections, who doesn't, and who stays injury free, that's when we can say whether we're deep or not, imho.

 

On paper, our D is better this year.  But I believe kehatch took our weeker goaltending into account when he called out tending "average".

 

Ramo's Goals against was 42nd in the league.   Hiller's average was 59th.   Guys we let go, like Reto Bera, beat them both.

 

Ortio the "unsure rookie", was 50th overall, for comparison.

 

"Average" would be around 15th overall.

 

Hamilton was a great trade.  But Hamilton is not going to bring Hiller to 15th overall from 59th.

 

He's just not.

 

"Average" was a very fair comment, that took out defense into account.  If anything, it was giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

Ortio should not have a problem taking over this year, imho.   the issue, is that "average" isn't good enough either.  We need top 5, or top 10.  Hiller/Ramo will never get us there.    We have to hope that Ortio or Gillies or Macdonald might.  None of them are at that level yet.

 

Pretty hard to project Ortio as the number 1 guy in Calgary, based on what 10 career games?  He started the season really bad last year.  Do you think he would get the same amount of rope if they kept him up for the first 20 games?  He would have to win 2/3 games to even be considered.

 

Watching games that we struggled in last year, it was pretty apparent that the defense had a big effect.  Once the other team got in our zone, a defender might break up the cycle, but then chip it out to the neutral zone, and the cycle would start again.  That might ensue for a stretch of 2 minutes, broken up by faceoffs (either a loss or chipping it out again or icing) or a goal as a result of the defender losing position.

 

You can't expect a goalie to make an initial stop, deflect the puck to your teammates, then have to make two or three more saves in rapid succession.  There weren't that many games where the goalie was at fault for more than one goal per game.

 

The only safe way to proceed with Ortio is to have three goalie up, play them each for stretches of games and see who sinks or swims.  After you are down to two, run them like they did last year.

[cross16]

If the Flames can improve their possession numbers that changes a lot. Yes the goalies were average, but the team was playing in their own end for the majority of the time in every game. What could their numbers look like if the team plays better?

I don't think it is fair to say they're average when the team play is well below average.

Since this is the case then i think our goalies did awesome! The numbers don't lie, our team play stunk in possession. Odds are, the goalies will let in more if the other team has the puck more.

 

I agree in part but also not in others. the biggest problem I have with Ramo/Hiller is their lack of ability to close to the door and that IMO is a huge diffrence between your top end and your average goalies. I think anyone would agree that no matter how much the Flames were in their own end, Hiller and Ramo gave up way too many soft goals last year or put the team in holes early. I do agree that if the Flames can increase their pocession numbers it will lead to better statistics from Hiller and Ramo, but I also agree with JJ that its not going to suddenly vault them into the top 10 in goaltending.

 

If the Flames are to have top end goaltending, which i don't think you NEED to have in order to contend, Ortio is their best chance IMO. I think Ramo and Hiller have proven they are what they are in this league so i think expecting them to suddenly become borderline elite talents is not likely. To this point, ortio hasn't shown me characteristics he could be an Elite goalie, but he has shown certain characteristics that he could lead a team. If you've got  strong team i don't think you need the level of goaltending you get form a Price/Rask etc and in fact i would argue in a cap world you are almost penalizing yourself by having 7 mill plus tied up in a goalie. At a minimum i think what you need is a Corey Crawford style goalie. Not someone who is elite, but can be elite when they are called upon. if you have that, you've got a chance to contend and Ortio I think could be that if all he stars align. I'll stop short saying he will becuase goalies are too tough to peg but i think he has the characteristics to be that.

[robrob1974]

Every goalie lets in softies though. They did elbowing the door afterwards, so I don't really agree. I don't recall many Leaf style chokes last year as you make it sound. We came from behind so much that they didn't have that.

As the game went on they got better. It's the early ones you need to stop. I think if we are hovering around top 20 among starters in the league, that's great.

[cross16]

Every goalie lets in softies though. They did elbowing the door afterwards, so I don't really agree. I don't recall many Leaf style chokes last year as you make it sound. We came from behind so much that they didn't have that.

As the game went on they got better. It's the early ones you need to stop. I think if we are hovering around top 20 among starters in the league, that's great.

 

I'm not suggesting they choked away leads what I mean is they keep making games interesting, either by letting in goals early of by letting in softies during the game to keep i close. Yes the Flames came from behind alot last year but is it realistic to think they can do dit again? IMO, you can't continue to do that, you can't continue to rely so much on 3rd period comebacks year after year because eventually the law of averages suggest you will not get the bounce or two you need in order to do that. so they need to improve in other areas and that means their goalies either keep more goals out early, or reducing the amount of soft goals they let that keep games close. with how competitive things are in the West, if the Flames want to be a contender I don't belive they can rely on coming back form 2,3 or 4 goal defecits. Have to start taking more games over and having your goalie stand tall is a big part of that IMO.

 

Every goalie lets in soft goals yes, but its the frequency. elite or top end goalies will here and there and then you have someone like Hiller who got the point he was letting in a softie at least once in every 2 or 3 starts I would say which is too much. Ramo was better with the softies but still has penchant to let in weaker goalies becuase he is too active in the crease.

[robrob1974]

That's part of being aware to begin games. You're asking for miracles for the most part as the coverage in most games were horrendous. It's easy to blame that on goalies.

A lot blamed Kipper the same way when really it was team breakdowns that can cause weak goals. It's all perception. I remember being on these boards back then and having to argue for even Kipper's tending.

I reserve my judgment on the goaltending until after the team fixes the way they start the games.

By the way, I am a fan of Ramo and not Hiller. But I agree with most who think Hiller stabilized the net. Although, I wonder what Ramo could have done had he been given the starters job. We never know as he was hardly played after a loss.

[kehatch]

The bottom line is the Flames had average goal tending last season. They have a young waiver eligible kid who could possibly provide better then average goal tending. The math isn't all that hard from there.

[robrob1974]

I get it, the numbers say one thing. But so does the advanced stats on possession and time in our own zone. Until we improve that, it's not going to improve numbers with Ortio or any of the goalies we have now. I don't know whether you guys are blaming the goalies or what, but, I just think it's pointless. I get the numbers, but they kept us in it enough to win it. THE TEAM dug themselves holes early by not coming out to play right away. I am just acknowledging that the team is at fault, and that includes the goalies. 

[Frankieboi]

I think that Gillies has all the tools to become a great starter in this league. He has always posted incredible numbers and seems to have a calming influence on his teams which is very important

[Wreckening]

Gillies is at least a year away, maybe two. I still think you'll see Hiller gone at some point and early. Possibly before the season starts. Which leaves Ramo and Ortio as our goalies. And as I said in an earlier post, I have a sneaky suspicion that BT will try and trade for a starter should the season start out badly for the goalies.

There's no doubt our goaltending is average at best. I think our depth is very good though. They're just a few years away yet.

I just wonder what goalies would be available at the right price?

[robrob1974]

I think if the goalies faulter, it has as much to do with them as it does the team game. We overcame all odds to get to the playoffs and I don't think it was in spite of our goaltending, as much as it is in spite of the way the team played early in games.

They didn't skate until they had to come from behind. That's not a recipe for success and goaltending numbers will be affected.

I am not saying they'd be top 5-10 in the league... But better team numbers will equate to better GAA and SV%

[cross16]

I think if the goalies faulter, it has as much to do with them as it does the team game. We overcame all odds to get to the playoffs and I don't think it was in spite of our goaltending, as much as it is in spite of the way the team played early in games.

They didn't skate until they had to come from behind. That's not a recipe for success and goaltending numbers will be affected.

I am not saying they'd be top 5-10 in the league... But better team numbers will equate to better GAA and SV%

 

No one is saying the team won in spite of the goaltending. I think, won't for sure speak for all but I think i get the theme, all we are saying is the goaltening was average. If the Flames want to be better this year they are going to need more out of everyone but I think they need even more out of their goaltending. If they just want to be a playoff team, the performance they got last year might be OK but I tihnk they need more, thats all we are saying.

[travel_dude]

No one is saying the team won in spite of the goaltending. I think, won't for sure speak for all but I think i get the theme, all we are saying is the goaltening was average. If the Flames want to be better this year they are going to need more out of everyone but I think they need even more out of their goaltending. If they just want to be a playoff team, the performance they got last year might be OK but I tihnk they need more, thats all we are saying.

 

Compare last year to years where we had Kipper.  When Kipper played well, it hid the problems with the team.  When he play just OK, the problems were exposed.  Last year, the goalies played well enough for us to have a chance every game.  Not stellar, but good enough to give us a chance.  There were games where 4 goals were scored, of which 2 were the goalie and the other two were the fault of the defense.

 

What I am saying is that the defense has to be better and the goalies have to make the saves that they should.  The impossible saves will still results in goals, unless the goalies steal games.  Last year there were very few stolen games.

[The_People1]

If you ask me where Corey Crawford ranks in terms of goalies in the NHL, i would find it really difficult to put him into the Top 15.  I think there are at least 14 other goalies in the league who would've won those Cups with the teams the Blackhawks had.  Even last season, Scott Darling had to come in to save the day a few times.

 

So, what that says is it's entirely possible to win a Cup with average goaltending if you have a stellar team infront of your goalies.

[420since1974]

Unless one of Hiller or Ramo totally stumble out of the gate or get injured, I foresee Orito being waived to Stockton.

 

I know that there is a risk of Orito not clearing waivers, but there is little market for trading veteran goalies at the start of the season.

[travel_dude]

Unless one of Hiller or Ramo totally stumble out of the gate or get injured, I foresee Orito being waived to Stockton.

 

I know that there is a risk of Orito not clearing waivers, but there is little market for trading veteran goalies at the start of the season.

 

It's and odd situation, since we have Gillies needing to play a ton of games in the AHL.  Maybe waiving one of the vets makes sense. They mentor Gillies, and stay in the AHL until we get a good baseline to evaluate the NHL guys.  Hiller would be PO'd if he was waived, but would like go unclaimed.  Ramo and Ortio would be a battle to the Finnish.      

[robrob1974]

But, it's not a goalie's job to mentor anyone. If they're sent to the AHL, do you think that's what they want to do or are thinking?

[420since1974]

I can't see the Flames management/owners sending any player with a salary over $3M to the AHL.

 

I don't remember them ever doing it in the history of the team, even adjusting the dollars for any year in the past.

[cross16]

If you ask me where Corey Crawford ranks in terms of goalies in the NHL, i would find it really difficult to put him into the Top 15.  I think there are at least 14 other goalies in the league who would've won those Cups with the teams the Blackhawks had.  Even last season, Scott Darling had to come in to save the day a few times.

 

So, what that says is it's entirely possible to win a Cup with average goaltending if you have a stellar team infront of your goalies.

 

While I agree that if you want to rank Crawford you'd have a hard time putting him in the top 10 when you think about regular season play and stats, but i would counter by saying that if you look at how he played in the SCF last year, he played at an Elite level.

 

I think that's what it comes down to for goalies. If you have a good time, you can have a guy like a Ward, Osgood or Crawford that while they may not be elite, they can raise their games to meet the challenge.

I can't see the Flames management/owners sending any player with a salary over $3M to the AHL.

 

I don't remember them ever doing it in the history of the team, even adjusting the dollars for any year in the past.

 

They sent Nik Hagman down whose salary at the time was 3million. Mind you yes they didn't keep him down there for the full season, i think it was about half the year, but I think it shows if they can win they will do it.

 

They are paying the salary regardless so if its in the NHL or the AHL not sure there is really a difference. All things being equal for sure i thikn they would keep the salary at the NHL level and try to get value out of it but I think if there is a clear difference they would send a player down in a hearbeat.