Goaltending

[DirtyDeeds]

I agree, the best thing to do is probably let Ortio get a good practice of dominating in 'ford and see how deep he can get them in the playoffs.

 

Ramo and Hiller can play out the year. Even if Ortio managed to play as well as he did his first four games, we're not topping the league this year. Just getting into the playoffs is a win.

 

Bring him up next year, along with some other changes and go from there.

 

He'll be a great goalie, but we don't have good options right now unless Hiller or Ramo go in a package deal, and I'm not sure at this point that its in our interest to move pieces with current chemistry and results unless there's huge returns.

We are in a fine position. Not many teams can say they have 3 goalies capable of being a starting goaltender. Look at the Oilers and how they have been struggling with 2 backups goalies. Now tell me we don't have good options???

 

Our goalie situation is a big plus for us to have 3 of them competing with more highly rated, up and coming in the near future..

[travel_dude]

I agree, the best thing to do is probably let Ortio get a good practice of dominating in 'ford and see how deep he can get them in the playoffs.

 

Ramo and Hiller can play out the year. Even if Ortio managed to play as well as he did his first four games, we're not topping the league this year. Just getting into the playoffs is a win.

 

Bring him up next year, along with some other changes and go from there.

 

He'll be a great goalie, but we don't have good options right now unless Hiller or Ramo go in a package deal, and I'm not sure at this point that its in our interest to move pieces with current chemistry and results unless there's huge returns.

Just to clarify; The team is in Addy not Abby this year - 'dack, not 'ford

[darth_henning]

Right. Habit.

 

the 'dack

 

We are in a fine position. Not many teams can say they have 3 goalies capable of being a starting goaltender. Look at the Oilers and how they have been struggling with 2 backups goalies. Now tell me we don't have good options???

 

Our goalie situation is a big plus for us to have 3 of them competing with more highly rated, up and coming in the near future..

 

I meant good options on ways to keep him up.

 

It's a great problem to have (much like having more NHL-caliber centers than positions finally), but right now, it does create a crease crunch.

 

That's what I was referring to.

[Psychlon]

I said it before... stick with your #1 and #2... give them confidence to be ready come playoff time. Don't repeat the same mistake other teams have done last season, going with the hot may win you a game or even two but not the SC, see Kings/ Ducks goaltender rotation in the last playoffs.

[conundrumed]

You know when you have to scroll down to find this thread that goaltending isn't an issue for now. Nothing to say if we aren't complaining lol.

 

To the point, I'd like to see Ramo in vs the Pens.

Riding the hot hand is a myth, imho.

Hiller was afforded massive rest by Ortio, he's on form.

Keep him there knowing he isn't a camel.

Ramo HAS to get some starts, both of our goalies need to be on form, Hiller earns his days off.

Doing it against the Pens will send more fear into everyone lol.

[MAC331]

Trade Ortio

LOL that's good

[travel_dude]

You know when you have to scroll down to find this thread that goaltending isn't an issue for now. Nothing to say if we aren't complaining lol.

 

To the point, I'd like to see Ramo in vs the Pens.

Riding the hot hand is a myth, imho.

Hiller was afforded massive rest by Ortio, he's on form.

Keep him there knowing he isn't a camel.

Ramo HAS to get some starts, both of our goalies need to be on form, Hiller earns his days off.

Doing it against the Pens will send more fear into everyone lol.

 

Watching the Oilers play PEN last night (just waiting for real hockey), Fasth had a good style against them.  I don't know that Hiller would have won that game with their crappy defense.  Ramo might have.

 

I don't think you can take the start away from Hiller, because he has earned it.  But sometimes you have to look at game film and match your goalie's style against the team you are playing.  Ramo is more like Kipper, while Hiller is more of a rigid style, where positioning allows you the best chance.

 

Hiller played against the Penguins last game, so it might make sense to play Ramo.  Might is the big word.

[robrob1974]

With Ramo not having a full game in so long, do you play him against the Pens though? As a first game back in a really long time, it could be a tough one to start? But then, when do you start him?

[cccsberg]

I said it before... stick with your #1 and #2... give them confidence to be ready come playoff time. Don't repeat the same mistake other teams have done last season, going with the hot may win you a game or even two but not the SC, see Kings/ Ducks goaltender rotation in the last playoffs.

I think the Ducks and Kings 'rotated' because the starters faltered badly and needed to reset, not some preplanned rotation.

With Ramo not having a full game in so long, do you play him against the Pens though? As a first game back in a really long time, it could be a tough one to start? But then, when do you start him?

On upcoming road trips there will be b2b games and a good chance for Ramo. We already know Ramo is capable and will do well when the team needs him.

[conundrumed]

With Ramo not having a full game in so long, do you play him against the Pens though? As a first game back in a really long time, it could be a tough one to start? But then, when do you start him?

It's all for not now as it looks like Hiller's start. I'd still go Ramo myself, you can't baby this stuff imo. Be it the Pens, Blues or Preds, you can't be afraid to give either of your goalies a hard start, even under hard circumstances.

Hiller has been stalwart, but the only thing it earns him is trust and belief in him. Each win shouldn't be a guaranteed next start. If we get crushed he doesn't get the next start.

Call it semantics, but I wouldn't manage goalies like that.

Call it "reward", but it's pretty disingenuous. As soon as he loses that 4-1 one, he loses his next start. You start creating a backfire that your losses are on the goalie. Also that you burned up your goalies focus when he's playing well, rather than managed it.

 

Trade Ortio

LOL that's good

Being that it's below my post, was this directed at me? Just seeking clarification, as you didn't quote anyone.

[Flamespatriot]

This team is missing two things. Elite goal tending, and size. We need the elite goal tending more then we need the size though. I really can't see the flames being competitive with "regular/good goal tending" in the play offs 

[conundrumed]

This team is missing two things. Elite goal tending, and size. We need the elite goal tending more then we need the size though. I really can't see the flames being competitive with "regular/good goal tending" in the play offs 

I'll call bollocks.

You don't know what it takes. Neither do I nor does anyone else.

There isn't a formula, so we might just as well sit on our crowns and not start handing out pamphlets pretending we actualy know, especially the one's doused in negatives.

They've already surprised, I wouldn't jump to say they're out of surprises.

[DirtyDeeds]

Hiller has been giving us elite goaltending. He started off among the top at the beginning of the season and lately has been giving us elite goaltending(pens game aside)

[Psychlon]

I think the Ducks and Kings 'rotated' because the starters faltered badly and needed to reset, not some preplanned rotation.

On upcoming road trips there will be b2b games and a good chance for Ramo. We already know Ramo is capable and will do well when the team needs him.

 

point here was that the Ducks did a rotation, the Kings did not despite Quick playing god awful in the first 3 games. 

 

I'll call bollocks.

You don't know what it takes. Neither do I nor does anyone else.

There isn't a formula, so we might just as well sit on our crowns and not start handing out pamphlets pretending we actualy know, especially the one's doused in negatives.

They've already surprised, I wouldn't jump to say they're out of surprises.

 

Same here... if someone saying this could actually back up his claim by proving that every SC winner had an "Elite-Goaltender", that would be a first. 

 

Hiller has been giving us elite goaltending. He started off among the top at the beginning of the season and lately has been giving us elite goaltending(pens game aside)

 

Hiller currently sits on slightly better SV% and GAA than in the previous three season. He's 0.001% lower than his career SV% and with 2.34 GAA 0.15 lower than his career GAA. He certainly seems to be on the right track and gives the team the chance to do something almost every night which is probably as much as you can ask from your goaltender. 

[MAC331]

Aren't most back up goalies inconsistent to a degree. They get irregular playing time where as the regular goalie gets to find his groove.

I don't think Ramo is a terrible goalie at all.

[kehatch]

I enjoy hockey stats as much as the next guy.  But I don't like goal tending stats.  I don't think they represent the quality of play of the goalies.  For a couple of reasons. 

 

1. They are a team stat

 

A goalies stats will fluctuate wildly between one team and the next.  It is really dependent on the defensive play, systems, number of shots against, etc.  

 

2. They fluctuate game to game

 

If Ramo has a single 30 save shutout his SV% will jump all of the way from .904 to .910.  If Ortio has a bad game and lets in 5 goals on a 30 shot game his SV% will drop from .931 to .914.  

 

3. They are influenced by the PK

 

The number of penalties and the quality of the PK has a big influence on SV%.  You can isolate it to even strength save percentage to correct for this.  But none of the main pages do this, most fans don't, and its a bit of a pain.  

 

I prefer to judge goalies based on:

1. The number of bad goals they let in
2. The number of clutch saves they make (big saves when you need them)

Unfortunately that is an entirely subjective view.  It also requires actually watching the games.  Which is fine when judging the Flames tenders, but is tougher when comparing them to other teams I don't watch as often.  

 

I will say this.  I trust Hiller more then Ramo or Ortio to make the big save when we really need it.  Right now, down the stretch, he is the guy I want starting most of the games.  Which means keeping Ortio in the AHL makes sense since there isn't any value in him watching from the bench.  

[Pyromancer]

In full agreement kehatch!

At the NHL level there are no horrible goalies.

If they are truly horrible there are replacements that can be had for a song & a dance.

 

This is also why you almost never hear goaltenders being talked about in the media when it comes to the trading deadline or pre-draft. How many times have you seen a goaltender a key piece of a trade? This usually only comes about in retrospect.

 

What I think sets apart the elite goaltenders is consistency & the ability to be difference-makers.

In other words; a goaltender who "steals" games. We have seen Ramo perform this feat several times.

Ortio's time will come....

[LCP_STEVIEG]

All i know is, I love that we have two capable goalies. And so far, when one goalie is playing poorly, the other one steps up. So far, our goaltending has not been a problem at all. Fingers, crossed, knock on wood.

[Flamespatriot]

I'm sold on everything this team has except for our goaltending. I think Hiller is a solid piece that can help you get to the play offs, but I don't think that he's the kind of goalie that can take you deep into the play offs. Ramos is a decent back up, but not a good starter

[travel_dude]

I'm sold on everything this team has except for our goaltending. I think Hiller is a solid piece that can help you get to the play offs, but I don't think that he's the kind of goalie that can take you deep into the play offs. Ramos is a decent back up, but not a good starter

Hiller does have a cup ring does he not? What I like about having him is that he knows what it takes to win the big games. Ramo is capable of coming in as relief or to give Hiller some rest if he has a bad game.

Ramo actually has a better win/loss record than Hiller and was the starter last year down the stretch.

He has had some bad games and has been pulled, but so has Hiller. He hasn't had that many stretches of games to hone his craft, post injury. I have more confidence in our tandem than I would for some other teams in the playoff hunt (SJ, NASH, LA, VAN). They are basically one goalie teams.

[DirtyDeeds]

Hiller does have a cup ring does he not? What I like about having him is that he knows what it takes to win the big games. Ramo is capable of coming in as relief or to give Hiller some rest if he has a bad game.

Ramo actually has a better win/loss record than Hiller and was the starter last year down the stretch.

He has had some bad games and has been pulled, but so has Hiller. He hasn't had that many stretches of games to hone his craft, post injury. I have more confidence in our tandem than I would for some other teams in the playoff hunt (SJ, NASH, LA, VAN). They are basically one goalie teams.

nope. He played his first 23 games(2007-08) for the Ducks the year after they won the cup(2006-07).

[KACaribou]

I enjoy hockey stats as much as the next guy.  But I don't like goal tending stats.  I don't think they represent the quality of play of the goalies.  For a couple of reasons. 

 

1. They are a team stat

 

A goalies stats will fluctuate wildly between one team and the next.  It is really dependent on the defensive play, systems, number of shots against, etc.  

 

2. They fluctuate game to game

 

If Ramo has a single 30 save shutout his SV% will jump all of the way from .904 to .910.  If Ortio has a bad game and lets in 5 goals on a 30 shot game his SV% will drop from .931 to .914.  

 

3. They are influenced by the PK

 

The number of penalties and the quality of the PK has a big influence on SV%.  You can isolate it to even strength save percentage to correct for this.  But none of the main pages do this, most fans don't, and its a bit of a pain.  

 

I prefer to judge goalies based on:

1. The number of bad goals they let in
2. The number of clutch saves they make (big saves when you need them)

Unfortunately that is an entirely subjective view.  It also requires actually watching the games.  Which is fine when judging the Flames tenders, but is tougher when comparing them to other teams I don't watch as often.  

 

I will say this.  I trust Hiller more then Ramo or Ortio to make the big save when we really need it.  Right now, down the stretch, he is the guy I want starting most of the games.  Which means keeping Ortio in the AHL makes sense since there isn't any value in him watching from the bench.  

 

It always makes me laugh when people look solely at stats. One of their best analysis is to say Fuhr or Vernon must have been weak goalies. Or that the 80s never had great goalies. Not true at all. The game was different. Wide open.

 

Nobody backchecked in the 80s like they do today. Gretzky, as an example, never met a blueline in his own zone he ever crossed. Lots of 2 on 1s, and breakaways on these goalies.

 

Twice as many scoring chances every game. Everyone tried to run and gun to keep up with the Oilers and they were scoring 5-6 goals a night!

 

Fuhr was incredible. I think if you put him in Roy's era, with Roy's padding, and his good two-way teams Fuhr would have every bit the stats Roy has. Not picking on Patrick but just making an example.

 

Verny wasn't far behind Fuhr either, but a little. And Billie Smith... nobody mentions him but in his day that miserable bugger was tougher and tougher to score on as the games got more important. Him and Fuhr as good in the clutch as Roy or Brodeur.

 

Don't forget Roy left a bad Habs team, demanding a trade to a great Colorado team. He stormed off after letting in a bucket-full of pucks. As you stated above, goaltending has so much to do with team defence, shots, quality of shots, and puck possession.

 

Don't automatically exclude the greats of the past because solely on stats. Tony O, Sawchuk, Mr. Goalie Glenn Hall, Dryden, Plante and back even further these guys played with squat for pads, flimsy masks and before the late 60s NO MASKS AT ALL!

 

But I like our combination now too. Ortio will likely back up Hiller next year. And that's looking pretty good too. I also like the Flames' drafting theories of picking a goalie every second year and never in the first round. These are fragile creatures and you just never know how they are going to turn out.

 

Take Dubnyk for example. Everyone says he sucks, then he gets a decent team to play behind and all of a sudden he's as good as anyone in the league. If you went by his previous goalie stats alone, the guy would have been sent to play in Siberia!

[evanEJ]

Trade Ramo up. Ortio is gonna prob be signed to a 1 way contract next year. Unless we want 3G we have no choice but to trade Ramo. We should do it come the draft though. Hiller plus Ortio=fire. we can have Ortio play 4 amazing games then give him a brake with Hiller 

[travel_dude]

nope. He played his first 23 games(2007-08) for the Ducks the year after they won the cup(2006-07).

Ya got me. Mixed him up with Jiggy.

[xstrike]

This is great because I typed this up before reading any of this, but it's still relevant. [i'm in the GK thread when I clicked on the playoff thread. That would be why. Stupid, slow, temporary replacement computer!]

 

Two things I find amusing. 1. We have more ROW than Chicago and Anaheim. They both have won 7 shootouts. Hm. (Also, Winnipeg has only won 24 ROW, one less than Dallas). 2. We have a better goal differential than Anaheim (and everyone in the West not named Chicago, St. Louis, or Nashville). We have two less goals than Anaheim, so they’ve let more goals in. Kinda funny since they were supposed to be really good and set in net, hence the expulsion of Hiller. Now perhaps this is skewed from some funny Bryziness, but still, I don’t know that our tenders are doing that terrible.