Goaltending

[Psychlon]

I'd say for anyone doing great in the American Hockey League... give him some games with the big team and see how it all plays out. No need to rattle the cage before that. 

[travel_dude]

I'd say for anyone doing great in the American Hockey League... give him some games with the big team and see how it all plays out. No need to rattle the cage before that. 

 

Can't just do it, unless we demote a roster player or place someone on IR.  Doesn't make sense to bring up a third goalie while we have two.

[phoenix66]

Just curios, is Gillies now too old for the WJHC or did last years performance knock him out of consideration?

[conundrumed]

You are too hung up on numbers my friend.

well, not really

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20152ALLGAGAll&sort=savePercentage&viewName=savePercentageLeaders

 

 

It'll probably start off that way, but don't be surprised to see Ortio challenge for the starter position in a very short period of time.

 

Even now, I think he would give Ramo a serious run for his money.  Give him a little experience next year, he'd be knocking on the door with Hiller in a relatively short period of time.  Potentially.

 

Ortio just had another 30 save performance for a .944 in December. 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090

And don't be surprised if it's not long before Gillies challenges Ortio too.

I prefer to look at a goalie's attributes, and we currently have 2 completely different goalies.

I believe far too much is given to "go with the hot hand".

Hiller: plays big, stays in his net, not very mobile but relies on staying in front of the puck and absorbs pucks well. Very average at seeing the puck through traffic.

Ramo: Sees the puck through traffic very well. Mobile to a fault, over-commits to scrambles leaving the net a yawning cage but relies on reflex and instincts.

 

Glove speeds are about even.

 

With that, goal coaching has to focus on the type of goalie, these 2 are night and day.

Overall, due to such a porous 4-7 D, Hiller is likely the better option due to rebound control, but having said that, play your goalie to opponent. If it's a crash the net team, play Hiller. If it's a high skill team, play Ramo.

In general. There's a lot of either/or teams, but for the Chi/Minny/LA types, play Hiller. For the T.O./Pens/Van types, play Ramo.

Forget the hot hand, play to the style and tempo you expect, learn as you go.

[jjgallow]

I have what is likely to be a highly unpopular suggestion, but I'll throw it out anyway.

 

CJ Motte.  I think we should try and sign him.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Motte

 

I think we could use one more strong prospect in our system within the age bracket of our rebuild.

 

We have two.  Three would make me feel "secure" in our goaltending pipeline.

 

 

I'm making some fairly big assumptions which are both unpopular and unlikely to be accepted:

 

Ramo's unlikely to be around next year.  I don't mean to pick on him, he's just not good enough and that's that.  Maybe for another team, but unlikely anyone else would pick him up.

 

Hiller's got a good chance of getting traded to a contender at the deadline.  And he is also in decline, despite a very strong start this season.

 

Ortio and Gillies are both knocking on the door in a Big way.

 

The common belief on here is that Ortio may make the Flames next year, and Gillies will start in the AHL.

 

In that case, Gillies will still need a backup to share the load, and CJ Motte would make for a fantastic duo.

 

 

But I'll take it one step further:  There is a very Real possibility that Ortio will do more than make the team next year.  Ortio may end up sharing starter responsibilities.  Ramo may not be here.  Hiller just won't play the same number of games he did this year.  IF he's even here.

 

Which all means...that Gillies may Also get some NHL callup time next year.  Maybe....even, possibly, as a backup to Ortio.

 

Which would leave us bone-dry in the AHL.

 

I think we might just have room to develop one more goaltending prospect.  And, there is a possibility of actually Needing one more. As early as next season.

 

 

There's my turkey-induced rant.  I don't expect it to go down well, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.

[travel_dude]

I have what is likely to be a highly unpopular suggestion, but I'll throw it out anyway.

 

CJ Motte.  I think we should try and sign him.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Motte

 

I think we could use one more strong prospect in our system within the age bracket of our rebuild.

 

We have two.  Three would make me feel "secure" in our goaltending pipeline.

 

 

I'm making some fairly big assumptions which are both unpopular and unlikely to be accepted:

 

Ramo's unlikely to be around next year.  I don't mean to pick on him, he's just not good enough and that's that.  Maybe for another team, but unlikely anyone else would pick him up.

 

Hiller's got a good chance of getting traded to a contender at the deadline.  And he is also in decline, despite a very strong start this season.

 

Ortio and Gillies are both knocking on the door in a Big way.

 

The common belief on here is that Ortio may make the Flames next year, and Gillies will start in the AHL.

 

In that case, Gillies will still need a backup to share the load, and CJ Motte would make for a fantastic duo.

 

 

But I'll take it one step further:  There is a very Real possibility that Ortio will do more than make the team next year.  Ortio may end up sharing starter responsibilities.  Ramo may not be here.  Hiller just won't play the same number of games he did this year.  IF he's even here.

 

Which all means...that Gillies may Also get some NHL callup time next year.  Maybe....even, possibly, as a backup to Ortio.

 

Which would leave us bone-dry in the AHL.

 

I think we might just have room to develop one more goaltending prospect.  And, there is a possibility of actually Needing one more. As early as next season.

 

 

There's my turkey-induced rant.  I don't expect it to go down well, but thought I'd put it out there anyway.

Eat some more turkey, and go back to sleep. What has Ortio ever done in the NHL to have you dubbinh him the next great one? 9 gp, 4w/wl .893 SV%. Big deal.

Ramo has a better average than that this year, even with the sub-par games he (and the team) had. Also, 2 SO.

AS have starter quality goalies that have some bad runs of late, but if the team only scored 1 goal per game, how is the goalie the blames?

I like our prospects as just that; prospects. They may step up big time in the next two years, or they could be like Berra. I'll go with the huys that are actually playing in the NHL until the prospects actually do something.

[kehatch]

Goalies are voodoo. At best projecting them is like betting the horse races. At worst your playing craps. The next big thing rarely is. It's usually some guy the average fan hasn't heard of. Even established NHL goalies commonly jump between the penthouse and the dog house.

I don't see any point in getting attached to a goalie prospect. I prefer a numbers game. More guys with potential = better chance at developing a stud.

Ramo, Ortio, Gilles, and MacDonald are all guys in the running to be a future starter. I don't see any reason to move any of them. Not unless we can't sign Ramo to an extension.

[jjgallow]

Goalies are voodoo. At best projecting them is like betting the horse races. At worst your playing craps. The next big thing rarely is. It's usually some guy the average fan hasn't heard of. Even established NHL goalies commonly jump between the penthouse and the dog house.

I don't see any point in getting attached to a goalie prospect. I prefer a numbers game. More guys with potential = better chance at developing a stud.

Ramo, Ortio, Gilles, and MacDonald are all guys in the running to be a future starter. I don't see any reason to move any of them. Not unless we can't sign Ramo to an extension.

 

I totally agree with this, in general, but come away with a different angle on it.  Mostly because I don't consider Ramo a prospect.

 

IMHO, for the reasons above, as soon as one of our prospects is able to log significant NHL minutes, we should give them that opportunity, freeing up another spot in our development system.  For, like you said, the numbers game.  The more goalie prospects we have, the better.  Thus the CJ Motte signing suggestion.   I don't believe goalies should be rushed.  But honestly, I think Ortio is ready.  And I don't think Gillies is far behind (we won't know until we see him spend some time in the AHL).

 

MacDonald won't be ready any time soon imho....at least one more year of junior.  

 

Where I end up taking another angle, is really Ramo.

 

He will be 29 this offseason.  Now I KNOW goalies take longer to develop.  But 29 year old goalies are Not prospects lol

 

By all accounts he is already showing overall decline, despite a couple very strong shutouts.

 

He has more wins this year, but that has a lot more to do with the team in front of him.

 

Treliving and Burke are not married to the guy like past management has been.

 

He is ranked 35th in the NHL for goaltending.

 

That IS good enough to potentially be a backup.   But not a starter.  

 

The thing is, he was just never a good fit here.  We have one, possibly two prospects capable of filling that backup role.  And possibly doing a better job at it.

 

I don't expect him to get traded, because he has no value.  But I can see Hiller getting picked up at the trade deadline.   If I was a contender, I would want Hiller as a backup.

 

I would expect we'll see Ortio pushing his way into the lineup as early as this season.   And then the whole dynamic will change.

[travel_dude]

....

 

Where I end up taking another angle, is really Ramo.

He will be 29 this offseason.  Now I KNOW goalies take longer to develop.  But 29 year old goalies are Not prospects lol

 

By all accounts he is already showing overall decline, despite a couple very strong shutouts.

He has more wins this year, but that has a lot more to do with the team in front of him.

Treliving and Burke are not married to the guy like past management has been.

He is ranked 35th in the NHL for goaltending.

That IS good enough to potentially be a backup.   But not a starter.  

 

The thing is, he was just never a good fit here.  We have one, possibly two prospects capable of filling that backup role.  And possibly doing a better job at it.

I don't expect him to get traded, because he has no value.  But I can see Hiller getting picked up at the trade deadline.   If I was a contender, I would want Hiller as a backup.

 

I would expect we'll see Ortio pushing his way into the lineup as early as this season.   And then the whole dynamic will change.

The only accounts that I hear of Ramo's decline are by you. If you take out the recent Flames losing streak, then he isn't playing that bad. Prior to it, he had b2b shutouts. He has played all of 15 games, and you can't even give him another 30 games before you want to send him to the scrapheap. He outplayed Ortio last season, which is why Ortio is still on the farm.

Ortio has a long way to go before he will be considered even a backup on the Flames. Would love for him to become the next Kipper, but I think Ramo is a lot closer to that.

[kehatch]

Right now he is merely decent. That is probably his ceiling. But with fewer then 100 games played I wouldn't say that with certainty. He may not be a prospect. But there is still a chance of progression.

I also don't see any value in putting Ortio up early. Right now it is working in Calgary. Let it play out the season.

[Flyerfan52]

I always felt that the workload affected him just like everyone else, and he was just good enough to still be great even with it.

 

I wish we had seen what he could do with a lesser workload.

 

All I want, is a goalie that can play a really strong 16-20 game stretch. 

Goalies have always been a different breed. Some thrive getting an extreme # of games (anything over 60 imo) while others are best as #1 but playing 50-55.

Workhorse Kipper probably wanted to play every minute of every game.

[jjgallow]

The only accounts that I hear of Ramo's decline are by you. 

 

It's really nothing personal, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way.

If you take out the recent Flames losing streak, then he isn't playing that bad. 

 

What does that even mean?

Right now he is merely decent. That is probably his ceiling. But with fewer then 100 games played I wouldn't say that with certainty. He may not be a prospect. But there is still a chance of progression.

I also don't see any value in putting Ortio up early. Right now it is working in Calgary. Let it play out the season.

 

Agree with all of the above...except the part where you said "right now it is working in Calgary".

 

I would say, it Was working.  And we need a few more games to determine whether we're in a skid or a trend.

[Psychlon]

I would only start making movements if A: current starter/ backup is getting seriously injured B: it's clear not to make the playoffs so you can try for the last couple of games something different which may give some indication for next season.

I don't see either option as valid at the moment and therefore wouldn't suggest any movements currently. 

 

Just looking at numbers and or games is a tricky thing, looking at the Kings vs. Sharks first round playoffs where the Kings were 3 games down with horrific goaltending from Quick. They eventually ended up winning the Cup with him so while some people are eager to overreact, there are gonna be good and bad games for every goaltender throughout the season and I would be cautious to make a judgement call this "early".

[jjgallow]

Yet another shutout for Ortio.

 

http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090

 

That's his third of the year, and good for a .942 save percentage for December.

 

Pretty much as hot as it gets.   

[robrob1974]

Ya, I kind of find it funny. We talk about our goalies. Everyone sees it different as there were some who wanted Kipper out long before he retired and placed blame on him. To those fans it was never our suspect defence at the time.

In that 8 game losing streak there were games I saw our players stand around in our own end. One game in particular was the Buffalo game.

Being a team game I think we tend to place blame on goaltending a little more than we should. Or we also have our favoured goat.

Lately I've been watching Raymond more intently wanting more out of him, while others probably see it differently, I just never liked the Raymond signing, but it's an example.

I think we have a good enough tandem to rest each goalie. A lot of those games there were a few bad luck plays and it cost us. Both of out goalies have momentary brain farts too. I think it's a matter of keeping both fresh. A part of it is keeping our players fresh too.

Another thing is, we are in a rebuild, most goalies wouldn't be able to play up to the standards we are expecting of Hiller and Ramo right now. We have a young team, one of the lowest of all payrolls and a mobile defence who aren't as intimidating as some would like. Any good/great goalie would have the same results as we are seeing out of our goaltending. I think we are lucky to have ours.

[Psychlon]

Probably a lot of people have seen "Miracle" on DvD or some even live... . One of the key quotes I remember from that movie was that it's not about losing or winning... it's about giving it all, giving your very best and if you are beat then, so be it. 

Looking from that perspective, there will be bad bounces/ luck for every team eventually, you have elite goaltender with brain farts here and there but if you play as a unit, try to make it easy for each other/ help each other out, you will get rewarded. I don't remember Hiller (just because I've seen him for much longer than Ramo) playing sluggish/ lazy. Sure he's been blown out and sure he's had bad stretches but his work ethic was always spot on.

[jjgallow]

I would expect we'll see Ortio pushing his way into the lineup as early as this season.   And then the whole dynamic will change.

 

 

I don't see how you can begin to compare Ortio at the AHL level and Ramo at the NHL level.  Apples and Bananas.

Unless he was called up for a run and was 4-2 then I wouldn't consider him in the same ballpark as Ramo yet.

 

 

And so it begins...

 

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/01/06/goaltender-karri-ramo-focusses-on-one-game-at-a-time-for-calgary-flames

[travel_dude]

And so it begins...

 

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/01/06/goaltender-karri-ramo-focusses-on-one-game-at-a-time-for-calgary-flames

You might get your wish after the Wings game. Ramo looks like he got concussed. Was in the quiet room and didn't come back to the bench. If he isn't ready for Friday, look for a callup to Ortio to sit on the bench.

[jjgallow]

You might get your wish after the Wings game. Ramo looks like he got concussed. Was in the quiet room and didn't come back to the bench. If he isn't ready for Friday, look for a callup to Ortio to sit on the bench.

 

Definitely not how I wanted my wish to be granted.

 

But historically the most likely way...

[cross16]

Millions tweeted after the game Ramo was walking around fine post game and singing autographs. Looks more precautionary then an injury.

[travel_dude]

Millions tweeted after the game Ramo was walking around fine post game and singing autographs. Looks more precautionary then an injury.

Good. Let Joni go the All Star game and Ramo get next start.

[conundrumed]

Can someone pleeeeaaaase work with Ramo. Gives up the short side for goal #1, Detroit tried it again and almost had another. Gets injured over-commiting into no man's land...

I'm growing less supportive watching the same simple mistakes over and over...some call it "unorthodox"...I prefer "mental errors".

[xstrike]

Can someone pleeeeaaaase work with Ramo. Gives up the short side for goal #1, Detroit tried it again and almost had another. Gets injured over-commiting into no man's land...

I'm growing less supportive watching the same simple mistakes over and over...some call it "unorthodox"...I prefer "mental errors".

That looked like a soccer GK type save. I know because I've done the same thing several times. You rush out to the top of the box and slide with the body into the opposing player. It's just (1) there's usually no defender around and (2) you don't usually get hurt doing it. The save would've worked well except Diaz was there too and wasn't expecting an NHL tender to come that far out. Harder to stop and get out of the way on ice than on grass.

[conundrumed]

It reminded me of a line I was told waay back in goalie camp: "If you're not going to use your head and protect your net, take your helmet off, because there's no point in protecting your head"...lol

[jjgallow]

Ortio up with the Flames now, 

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=747652

 

Hoping he gets to play a game.  Always a chance.