Goaltending

[JTech780]

The deal we should have made was for Bernier. I called for it last year and got heckled out of here because we had elite Ramo coming and Kipper was a sure fire starter this season. That was a fantastic value trade for the Leafs. We missed a huge opportunity to address our goaltending needs for a decade, for only a second round pick plus some garbage.

 

I would be more interested in Gibson than Scrivens. We need a goalie that can be a star. Not a stop gap (Scrivens). That said, Gibson will cost us a first round pick. That's what happens when you don't take an opportunity to address a need.

 

I would much rather Gibson as well, but I think it costs way more than a 1st to get him, in the end the price might be higher than what Calgary can comfortably give up. I think the hype on Gibson is about the same as Carey Price when he came out of junior, and I think it is warranted hype. He backstopped the USA team at the World Championships and the World Juniors and had impressive numbers at both; .955 SV% and 1.36 GAA in 7 games at the WJC and a .951 SV% and 1.56 GAA in 5 games at the WC. To put those kind of numbers up as a 19 year at the WC and beat out Ben Bishop for the starting job is very impressive. He currently has a .955 SV% and a 1.44 GAA in 6 games in the AHL this year.

 

This kid is the real deal. It would be hard pill to swallow but I would give up a 1st and Baertschi plus one of our goalies for this kid, and I am not even sure that it is enough. I think he is franchise goalie and I am not sure Calgary currently has franchise type goalie in the system. Gillies would be the closest but I am not sure he is on that level.

 

The reason I mentioned Scrivens is because he would be significantly cheaper to acquire and I think he is better than Ramo, MacDonald or Berra. I think he is capable of starting he just isn't an elite goalie, his numbers in the NHL the last few years aren't all that bad and at 27 he is just entering his prime.

 

I am just not sure how many options are out there outside of MIller and Elliot, which are two that I would want no part of.

[travel_dude]

I probably shouldn't be saying this, but after last night:

 

I would rather have a goalie that is occasionally off-position than one who is turned 180 degrees and facing the inside of the net.

 

I feel bad saying it, but we all saw that...

Ask Nucks fans about games where Luongo let in softies or looked stupid with the puck by his feet.

 

Does Ramo need to play more like the Washington game every night?  Yes. 

Is he ready for the scrap heap after 6 games?  No. 

 

Like it or not, Ramo is our goalie for Y1 of the rebuild.  We better learn how to reduce his workload in-game, start clearing the crease, and give him the tools to win.  Teach him better positioning for play behind the net.  Get him working with the D in practice on communication and D-man tendencies. 

[geos]

Like it or not, Ramo is our goalie for Y1 of the rebuild.  We better learn how to reduce his workload in-game, start clearing the crease, and give him the tools to win.   

 

This is nonsense. We are top half in SA/G in the league and second last in GAA. This is a goaltending problem first. Yes, we can improve our SA, but when your goalie is sub .900, it's not going to help much.

 

He faced half as many shots as Bernier last night. There is no excuse.

[travel_dude]

This is nonsense. We are top half in SA/G in the league and second last in GAA. This is a goaltending problem first. Yes, we can improve our SA, but when your goalie is sub .900, it's not going to help much.

 

He faced half as many shots as Bernier last night. There is no excuse.

SA/G and GPG are only half the story.  If we are 18th in shots per game (30.0), that usually means we allow too many chances per game as well.  The way TO defenders cleared out the front of the net was a big difference between the two teams.  Yes, the goaltender was responsible for making those 2nd and 3rd saves due to mishandling the puck, but scrambling in front of his is all on the defense. 

[jjgallow]

SA/G and GPG are only half the story.  If we are 18th in shots per game (30.0), that usually means we allow too many chances per game as well.  The way TO defenders cleared out the front of the net was a big difference between the two teams.  Yes, the goaltender was responsible for making those 2nd and 3rd saves due to mishandling the puck, but scrambling in front of his is all on the defense. 

 

I think save percentage usually does a decent job of accounting for the number of shots, personally.

 

But I Still agree with you that it's only half the statistical story, and only half the statistical story at that.

 

Because there's also wins.  I think Ramo's wins are reasonable, actually, given our defense (2 wins in 6 games).  But compared to JMac's winning percentage, again Ramo loses at this early stage.

 

All that together makes up the stats, or "half" the story.

 

The other half...the intangibles......  Ramo has made the Best saved of any Flames goalie, and also let in the softest goals between him and JMac.

 

If Ramo were 20 years old, I would put more weight on his best saves, as a sign of potential.

 

But he's not.  So I place more value on the consistency.   And in that, I see a flashy goaltender that's failed to develop  a level of disicpline, form, and focus required at the NHL level.

 

I also see it making him very vulnerable as the video tape gets out to other teams.   

[geos]

SA/G and GPG are only half the story.  If we are 18th in shots per game (30.0), that usually means we allow too many chances per game as well.  The way TO defenders cleared out the front of the net was a big difference between the two teams.  Yes, the goaltender was responsible for making those 2nd and 3rd saves due to mishandling the puck, but scrambling in front of his is all on the defense. 

 

I'm willing to give some benefit to goalies for these stats. Maybe you're 15th and should be 10th with better defense. Who knows? There isn't any precision in such stats really in ranking goalies.

 

But when you're in the bottom, you're in the bottom, regardless. Jon Quick wouldn't be 0.888% on any NHL team. When your GAA AND Sv% are both in the dumps, you're a bad goalie.

Ramo has allowed at least 1 if not 2 soft goals per game that an NHL starter wouldn't allow. Guess what, that's 6GA. If he stops 6 GA more, his stats look like... guess what... an NHL starter. The stats here do paint the picture. He's one soft goal per game away from being a decent goalie. Unfortunately he shows no evidence of being able to stop that problem.

[travel_dude]

Ramo has allowed at least 1 if not 2 soft goals per game that an NHL starter wouldn't allow. Guess what, that's 6GA. If he stops 6 GA more, his stats look like... guess what... an NHL starter. The stats here do paint the picture. He's one soft goal per game away from being a decent goalie. Unfortunately he shows no evidence of being able to stop that problem.

 

No argument about him letting in soft goals.  Dubie let in a ton so far.  He was an NHL goalie last year and is having a rough start.

 

Both will improve with average defense.

[Zirakzigil]

Ramo is going to have bad games until he adjusts to the smaller rink surface. Goalies have the hardest time to adjust, there is a lot more traffic and the reaction time is less. After 30 or 40 games you can make a judgement on how well he is doing. Mac is nothing more then a waiver fodder backup. Ramo has potential to be a solid starter, Berra as well. 

[jjgallow]

Ramo is going to have bad games until he adjusts to the smaller rink surface. Goalies have the hardest time to adjust, there is a lot more traffic and the reaction time is less. After 30 or 40 games you can make a judgement on how well he is doing. Mac is nothing more then a waiver fodder backup. Ramo has potential to be a solid starter, Berra as well. 

 

You.....are an optimist

 

I'm a bit jealous.

[kehatch]

It's not one stinker. He lets in a one or two softies every game (except for one game where he was excellent throughout). That's why he's not an NHL goalie. Lots of goalies can make some big saves and look good, the guys that don't allow soft goals are the ones that start games. Ramo is not a starter. Between preseason and his 6 starts that should be quite obvious. I'm ok giving him a couple more games to prove he can be solid for a full 60 minutes, but each time we do, we're jeopardizing any playoff shot.

 

So far, it is on Ramo and JMac. We're scoring plenty of goals to be a top half team in the NHL. Plenty. We've got 4 or 5 points due to goaltending this year. That's the difference between where we are at and a divisional playoff spot. It is goaltending. Yes, our defense could be better too and that could make up for some of the shortfall.

 

But you have ZERO hope of a playoff spot with a goalie posting a 0.888 Sv%. That's not good enough. It really isn't.

 

The guys on Fan960 were discussing that this morning on the way to work and they were on the same page as me really there, so it's not just me seeing that he's not a very good goalie.

 

It is much more likely goal tending improves than the Flames sustain their scoring.  And of course you aren't the only one that saw Ramo struggle last night.  That doesn't mean he is a horrible goalie.  I also thought he was 'okay' in his other starts.  

 

I am not optimistic we are going to find an elite starter this season.  But I don't think the Flames should make a panic move to improve in goal with the expectations they are otherwise a playoff team.  I think they should be patient to truly see what they have in net.  

 

Panic moves in a rebuild is silly. We are less than 20-games into a rebuild.  Fans need to learn patience.  Despite a strong start we are probably in for a long season or three.  

 

EDIT: Excluding last night Ramo has had a very high EV SV%.  That is a better metric than overall SV% for a goalie.  The Flames PK has been terrible.  If you want to blame losses on something that is the weakest link.  The PP isn't much better.  

[jjgallow]

Are we.....agreeing....in the goaltending thread?  

 

Spooky...must be Halloween

 

It is much more likely goal tending improves than the Flames sustain their scoring.  And of course you aren't the only one that saw Ramo struggle last night.  That doesn't mean he is a horrible goalie.  I also thought he was 'okay' in his other starts.  

 

I am not optimistic we are going to find an elite starter this season.  But I don't think the Flames should make a panic move to improve in goal with the expectations they are otherwise a playoff team.  I think they should be patient to truly see what they have in net.  

 

Exactly.   Trading for another goalie would be a horrible blow to the franchise.  I don't think people realize what an opportunity we have in these next two years to build an unforgettable, incredibly successful team.  If people did, there's no way anybody would sacrifice Any of that for a fool's shot at a first-round playoff exit this year. Which is all a top goaltender could hope to get us.

 

 

Panic moves in a rebuild is silly. We are less than 20-games into a rebuild.  Fans need to learn patience.  Despite a strong start we are probably in for a long season or three.  

 

Exactly.  3 long seasons, most likely.  Although I do hope that season 3 is filled with hope and huge strides forward.  We are not getting better right now.  People don't want to hear it...but we're getting worse.  Yes we are.   We probably won't bottom out until next season, and then start to come back up.  Sorry.  Those who stay along for the ride will be rewarded.  Eventually.

 

EDIT: Excluding last night Ramo has had a very high EV SV%.  That is a better metric than overall SV% for a goalie.  The Flames PK has been terrible.  If you want to blame losses on something that is the weakest link.  The PP isn't much better.  

 

I still think Ramo's a dud, BUT....I agree with this.  A lot.

 

If we Were to panic on something, it wouldn't be goaltending.  It wouldn't be our forwards.

 

It would be our defence.  From a prospect perspective, I am on the verge of panic.  In terms of the Flames lineup, it doesn't matter that much right now.

 

I was a little shocked and horrified that we didn't draft a single defenceman until the third round this year.   Not that we should have targeted them, but...common.....three first-rounders and not one defenceman?

 

We desperately need a Minimum of two possible first-line defensive prospects, and at Least one on the right-hand side.

 

In a proper rebuild, this would be the second thing we went for (after goaltenders), due to the time it takes to develop them.

 

If we trade Cammy or Hudler this year, I think this is what we have to get.  A young, promising defensive prospect.  Or two.

[lordxan]

This is nonsense. We are top half in SA/G in the league and second last in GAA. This is a goaltending problem first. Yes, we can improve our SA, but when your goalie is sub .900, it's not going to help much.

 

He faced half as many shots as Bernier last night. There is no excuse.

This is a very good point, both Ramo and Mac have generally had much lower number of shots vs the opposing team, so to say we need more from the D is "nonsense" 

 

Now I'm not saying our D is without need of upgrading here and there but they are at the very least holding their own.

 

Sub .900 SV% is a huge issue, no argument there, we gave Ramo a bit of a shot, and even more so Mac, either way, time for Mgt to put up or shut up.  Then need to bring Berra up and possibly push these guys and soon.  The other suggestion I have heard is Ben Scrivens, which is probably the best option to go with giving cots to acquire and what you get, not an elite but at least much better and more reliable then what we are currently riding.  Added to the fact many teams have done well with decent goalies (KAK San and Chi) in recent years) Ben SCRIVENS is at the very least a decent goalie, vs our current shaky situation.

 

Again, just my take on it but at this point I think Mgt needs to give the kids a little something to work with (ie a goalie they can be relativity confident in)

[cross16]

I don't think its a problem to have this goalie situation for this season as long as it's this season alone. I haven't seen much out of Ramo either but I don't think you abandon the plan altogether without more time and make a panic move. Try it for the season and if Ramo or Berra can't rise up by the end of the season you look outside the organization. One year of potentially bad goaltending is not going to ruin prospects or allowing losing to saturate the organization. Multiple years of that will which is why you try this for a awhile and then make changes.

[travel_dude]

Exactly.  3 long seasons, most likely.  Although I do hope that season 3 is filled with hope and huge strides forward.  We are not getting better right now.  People don't want to hear it...but we're getting worse.  Yes we are.   We probably won't bottom out until next season, and then start to come back up.  Sorry.  Those who stay along for the ride will be rewarded.  Eventually.

 

 

...

 

It would be our defence.  From a prospect perspective, I am on the verge of panic.  In terms of the Flames lineup, it doesn't matter that much right now.

 

I was a little shocked and horrified that we didn't draft a single defenceman until the third round this year.   Not that we should have targeted them, but...common.....three first-rounders and not one defenceman?

 

We desperately need a Minimum of two possible first-line defensive prospects, and at Least one on the right-hand side.

 

In a proper rebuild, this would be the second thing we went for (after goaltenders), due to the time it takes to develop them.

 

If we trade Cammy or Hudler this year, I think this is what we have to get.  A young, promising defensive prospect.  Or two.

 

One has to think that the defensemen on the Flames' "list" were picked prior to where we wanted to pick them.  I would not have given up Mony or Poirier for the defense that were still available at those picks.  Klimchuk is a great pick and may just be the steal of the draft.

I was never that big on Nurse, and none of the guys I was big on made it even as far as the Poirier pick.

 

I'm not losing sleep over this as there are several guys in the pipeline that may (could possibly) end up as a #1/2.  As you said, we have some vets that could fetch some pieces we could use.  This year's cap constricts some of the contenders from making moves to help their teams, so they might have to give up something good to make room for the Iggys and Jagrs at TDL time.  There may be players available this summer that we can easily afford that match our long term need.  Either through trade or FA.

[jjgallow]

I don't think its a problem to have this goalie situation for this season as long as it's this season alone. I haven't seen much out of Ramo either but I don't think you abandon the plan altogether without more time and make a panic move. Try it for the season and if Ramo or Berra can't rise up by the end of the season you look outside the organization. One year of potentially bad goaltending is not going to ruin prospects or allowing losing to saturate the organization. Multiple years of that will which is why you try this for a awhile and then make changes.

 

Agreed....actually, I think bad (or mediocre) goaltending can sometimes be very good for development of a team.

 

They learn to be much more defensively aware, and take less for granted.

 

I think the 2004 Flames did much of their development under very suspect goaltending, part of the reason they became so strong defensively.  Then, all of a sudden you throw Kipper into the mix, and Bam.   

 

But, we also so what happened to the team after years of great goaltending....we took it for granted.

[geos]

EDIT: Excluding last night Ramo has had a very high EV SV%.  That is a better metric than overall SV% for a goalie.  The Flames PK has been terrible.  If you want to blame losses on something that is the weakest link.  The PP isn't much better.  

 

Not really. Including the Leaf's game his EVSv% is .911. Excluding that game he's 0.912. That's still not a great even strength Sv%. 46th in the league (including some backups, mind you).

 

It still comes down to soft goals. Stop those one or two soft goals per game and we're a 4 or 5 points higher in the standings. That's the difference between a plug and an NHL starter. Quick or Niemi may allow a soft one every 10 games. Not every single night. You can't win like that. The stats don't tell the full story of how Ramo is costing us points, but the stats certainly support it.

 

And no, I'm not arguing JMac is any better really. There is a reason why he too is not an NHL starter.

[geos]

EDIT: One reason we may not have seen Berra called up yet is that I believe swapping out Ramo for Berra puts us below the cap floor.

[kehatch]

EDIT: One reason we may not have seen Berra called up yet is that I believe swapping out Ramo for Berra puts us below the cap floor.

 

I don't think so.  Under the new CBA all but 900K of Ramo's contract would still impact our cap situation.  But Berra just had a bit of a stinker in the AHL where he was pulled.  They will probably let this run its course for a bit longer before bringing Berra up.  I am pretty certain Berra gets his shot at some point though.  

[Carty]

Then there was that clause that was reported to be in Ramo's contract where he could return to the KHL if he did not remain with the Flames and was going to be sent down to Abby...

[geos]

Then there was that clause that was reported to be in Ramo's contract where he could return to the KHL if he did not remain with the Flames and was going to be sent down to Abby...

 

I didn't think you were allowed modifications to the standard player agreement?

[jjgallow]

Quiet here tonight.....

 

Um....

[PokernHockey]

I didn't think you were allowed modifications to the standard player agreement?

that is a very common clause in Euro players contracts. especially when they get released from a contract in another league early.

[kehatch]

Quiet here tonight.....

 

Um....

 

Ya.  I expected to come in and find the Mac attacks.  The first two goals weren't his fault.  But an NHL goalie saves some of the ones that otherwise wouldn't be his fault.  His rebound control was particularly bad tonight and led to one goal.  The one from beside the net can't happen.  

 

Two games in a row where the Flames deserved the win but lost in the goalie battle.  I really wish there was a goalie available that fit the bill of a rebuild.  I really wish we would have been in on Bernier (though with LA in our division they may not have been willing).  

 

Unfortunately the only option is to put in Ramo next game and hope he rebounds.  And if he doesn't hope that Berra can do better.  

[DirtyDeeds]

Unfortunately the only option is to put in Ramo next game and hope he rebounds.  And if he doesn't hope that Berra can do better.  

Was listening to Fan 960 pregame and Troy Ward was talking about Berra and how he has played really well for the Heat. He said that Berra has given them a chance to win just about every night.

 

Considering how Troy ward refused to compliment Irving last season and changed the subject to Taylor and Brust when asked about Irving, this praise for Berra is nice to hear. I'll temper my hopes until we see him up here later. Fan 960 was speculating around Christmas or so we might see him unless JMac or Ramo play lights out.

[cross16]

Looks like Mac on waivers and Berra on the way up.according to Elliot Friedman

https://twitter.com/friedgehnic/status/396631253929431040