Flyers - The O And B

[s4xon]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=662078

 

While it may be a long read, it's interesting to see where the Flyers stand.  I don't follow the east much, but it's nice to have the perspective.  The article is well written and doesn't slander the team.  Giroux with "only" 28 points in 31 games...made me chuckle.

 

A side note: If this were written for the Flames, it would be a murder scene.

[The_People1]

I think the Hartnell, Briere, and Simmonds injuries have hurt the team and you have Couturier and B.Schenn going through a "sophomore slump" of sorts.  This is a team in great shape moving forward into the future. They just need to be patient and don't do any panic trades. Their biggest problem is goaltending but there is an amnesty buyout option at the end of this season that the Flyers can exercise to fix that.

[Carty]

From what I've seen, Bryz has been playing a lot better this season and is not the main reason for their struggles...   I think that the Flyers have been experiencing somewhat similar problems in the D zone as well as offense and scoring as have the Flames...

[Flyerfan52]

Many players out performed expectations last year & have returned to their natural level this year. Couturier looks to be experiencing the well known sophmore slump.

With Timonen having lost a step (a probable reason for his penalties) & Pronger removed from the equation the blue line consists of a crew of slow 2/3/4 defense. Lavi wants the team to play a team defensive game but few forwards appear to be buying into it so the lack of speed on defense in magnified.

Lavi also appears to have lost the room. He looks totally lost out there. The Flyers probably lead the league in too many men infractions while about 2 weeks ago Briere came off the ice for a rest & Lavi forgot to send another player out to replace him. Those are marks of a totally flustered coach.

I'm not a Bryz fan but I'm actually forgiving him for much this season as his defense hasn't been much help while the offense consistantly backs off when the have a lead & let it slip away. They seem to lack the killer instinct.

 

I expect a huge change of personnel in Philly before next season for 2 reasons. 1) Ed Snider does not accept losing nor excuses for doing so. 2) They need to drop payroll. Even with Pronger  on LTIR there is only about $8 million to fill 5 roster spots including a backup goalie.

Briere is adamant he won't waive his MNC as he & his kids like living in Philly so he's a likely amnesty buyout.

I expect 1 or 2 of the defense to be traded & replaced by someone more mobile. They're good players & well suited to be the defensive conscience when paired with a more offensive player but you can't have an entire corps of those.

I'm hoping Holgren gets axed before he does something stupid like trading a player on EL or otherwise budget friendly (like Read) while taking on more salary. We need those guys to field a decent team while remaining under the lower cap. It'll be tough so a better GM then Homer will be needed.

[travel_dude]

Many players out performed expectations last year & have returned to their natural level this year. Couturier looks to be experiencing the well known sophmore slump.

With Timonen having lost a step (a probable reason for his penalties) & Pronger removed from the equation the blue line consists of a crew of slow 2/3/4 defense. Lavi wants the team to play a team defensive game but few forwards appear to be buying into it so the lack of speed on defense in magnified.

Lavi also appears to have lost the room. He looks totally lost out there. The Flyers probably lead the league in too many men infractions while about 2 weeks ago Briere came off the ice for a rest & Lavi forgot to send another player out to replace him. Those are marks of a totally flustered coach.

I'm not a Bryz fan but I'm actually forgiving him for much this season as his defense hasn't been much help while the offense consistantly backs off when the have a lead & let it slip away. They seem to lack the killer instinct.

 

I expect a huge change of personnel in Philly before next season for 2 reasons. 1) Ed Snider does not accept losing nor excuses for doing so. 2) They need to drop payroll. Even with Pronger  on LTIR there is only about $8 million to fill 5 roster spots including a backup goalie.

Briere is adamant he won't waive his MNC as he & his kids like living in Philly so he's a likely amnesty buyout.

I expect 1 or 2 of the defense to be traded & replaced by someone more mobile. They're good players & well suited to be the defensive conscience when paired with a more offensive player but you can't have an entire corps of those.

I'm hoping Holgren gets axed before he does something stupid like trading a player on EL or otherwise budget friendly (like Read) while taking on more salary. We need those guys to field a decent team while remaining under the lower cap. It'll be tough so a better GM then Homer will be needed.

Do you think he might make one last (crazy) trade, like JBow for Couts?  Read for Tanguay and Butler?

[Carty]

These Jager girls were fans of the O & B...  

 

 

[Atleloff]

Intercomp - финансовый и кадровый аутсорсинг в Украине. Бухгалтерские услуги, расчет заработной платы, кадровое администрирование, аутстаффинг. Первое место в рейтинге аутсорсинговых компаний. аренда персонала

Intercomp - финансовый и кадровый аутсорсинг в Украине. Бухгалтерские услуги, расчет заработной платы, кадровое администрирование, аутстаффинг. Первое место в рейтинге аутсорсинговых компаний. оказание бухгалтерских услуг

[Flyerfan52]

Intercomp - финансовый и кадровый аутсорсинг в Украине. Бухгалтерские услуги, расчет заработной платы, кадровое администрирование, аутстаффинг. Первое место в рейтинге аутсорсинговых компаний. аренда персонала

Intercomp - финансовый и кадровый аутсорсинг в Украине. Бухгалтерские услуги, расчет заработной платы, кадровое администрирование, аутстаффинг. Первое место в рейтинге аутсорсинговых компаний. оказание бухгалтерских услуг

Looks like advertising/spam. That seems to be the norm when they bring back an old thread.

[s4xon]

Time to dust off the old thread.

 

Peter Laviolette fired, replaced with assistant coach Craig Berube.

 

 

The rest at http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=433599

 

I think they fired the wrong guy.  Homer's inability to produce any solid goaltending, or address the on ice issues with scoring and D over the last few years tied Lavi's hands. Just IMO.

 

You can't bake bread without flour.

[DL44]

They are rebuilding.
They went to the finals in 2010.. then decided to rebuild.
It's the rebuild that no one knows about... or is talking about.

 

They are so young upfront... it will take em time to develop.

Since Pronger went down, their backend has been a mess - 11 D with 10 gms in 11-12... another 11 this past yr with 6 or more gms, 13 total...

Another shuffle next year as Timonen who turns 39 this season, may be gone.  No way do they bring back Mezaros, do they FF52?

Their goaltending has been a gong show... Maybe Mason/Emery can stabilize the position... but just another question mark good teams don't have.

 

The regression:
SCF Finals in '10, Swept by Bos in '11, somehow won a goaltending gong show PP series vs Pit then hammered by the Devils, then missed out last season..

 

Mind you that Pit-Philly series was a gong for the ages.  Don't think I've ever been sooooo entertained by a non-canuck series... ever.

 

Good luck to Berube.  Never liked him as player, but hey... I'm not Flyers fan either, so good choice.

[JTech780]

I get the firing of Laviolette, I am just not a fan of promoting your assistant coach to head coach.

 

Usually the assistant is a go between for the players and the head coach and there is certain level of friendship there that is hard to change when making the transition to head coach. 

[Flyerfan52]

They are rebuilding.

They went to the finals in 2010.. then decided to rebuild.

It's the rebuild that no one knows about... or is talking about.

 

They are so young upfront... it will take em time to develop.

Since Pronger went down, their backend has been a mess - 11 D with 10 gms in 11-12... another 11 this past yr with 6 or more gms, 13 total...

Another shuffle next year as Timonen who turns 39 this season, may be gone.  No way do they bring back Mezaros, do they FF52?

Their goaltending has been a gong show... Maybe Mason/Emery can stabilize the position... but just another question mark good teams don't have.

 

The regression:

SCF Finals in '10, Swept by Bos in '11, somehow won a goaltending gong show PP series vs Pit then hammered by the Devils, then missed out last season..

 

Mind you that Pit-Philly series was a gong for the ages.  Don't think I've ever been sooooo entertained by a non-canuck series... ever.

 

Good luck to Berube.  Never liked him as player, but hey... I'm not Flyers fan either, so good choice.

A rebuilding masterstroke by Homer. Getting rid of 2 young forwards that took them to the SCF so he could overpay a space cadet in goal while Vokoun was begging for work.

Less mentioned is trading a 1st & 3rd for 27 games of Versteeg only to trade him for a 2nd & 3rd after getting rid of 2 guys that would be #1 Center on most teams (top 6 winger on very talented 1s).

 

Letting Carle walk without an offer is up there too. Had to pursue Parise & Suter @ the cost of the team.

 

Timo will retire & Mez will be gone as soon as there is a buyer. If no interest he'll go UFA.

That'll leave Streit (untradeable with the 35+ contract) & 3 other 3.5+ defense suited to the 3-4 role. There are good complimentary defense but (like many teams) no 1-2 since Pronger was injured & Timo aged. Landing Weber with that OS would have given another of those rare #1 Ds but it wasn't to be.

 

Hex has his work cut out for him when he takes over. He might trade someone like B Schenn (remember he was @ 1 time the "best player not in the NHL") & other name players for those that play 200 feet.

 

Yet, Chief will make them respectable this year. Hopefully before the month is over Hex can help him with that.

IMO the keepers are Giroux, Couts & Read (even they would be on the table for the right price). A few others have age, $s &/or salary making them hard to trade but he still has some bargaining chips. We don't know who's on those modified NTCs. Vorachek, either (or both) Schenn(s) or even Talbot should bring a decent return.

[travel_dude]

A rebuilding masterstroke by Homer. Getting rid of 2 young forwards that took them to the SCF so he could overpay a space cadet in goal while Vokoun was begging for work.

Less mentioned is trading a 1st & 3rd for 27 games of Versteeg only to trade him for a 2nd & 3rd after getting rid of 2 guys that would be #1 Center on most teams (top 6 winger on very talented 1s).

 

Letting Carle walk without an offer is up there too. Had to pursue Parise & Suter @ the cost of the team.

 

Timo will retire & Mez will be gone as soon as there is a buyer. If no interest he'll go UFA.

That'll leave Streit (untradeable with the 35+ contract) & 3 other 3.5+ defense suited to the 3-4 role. There are good complimentary defense but (like many teams) no 1-2 since Pronger was injured & Timo aged. Landing Weber with that OS would have given another of those rare #1 Ds but it wasn't to be.

 

Hex has his work cut out for him when he takes over. He might trade someone like B Schenn (remember he was @ 1 time the "best player not in the NHL") & other name players for those that play 200 feet.

 

Yet, Chief will make them respectable this year. Hopefully before the month is over Hex can help him with that.

IMO the keepers are Giroux, Couts & Read (even they would be on the table for the right price). A few others have age, $s &/or salary making them hard to trade but he still has some bargaining chips. We don't know who's on those modified NTCs. Vorachek, either (or both) Schenn(s) or even Talbot should bring a decent return.

It would be a mistake to trade Vorachek (unless it is to the Flames  ); he is one of those talents that will only get better.  He would get the best return of the guys you mentioned as non-keepers, but I think you would regret it.

[Flyerfan52]

It would be a mistake to trade Vorachek (unless it is to the Flames  ); he is one of those talents that will only get better.  He would get the best return of the guys you mentioned as non-keepers, but I think you would regret it.

I didn't say Jake should be traded but did mention him as a tradeable player if the return was right.

 

Giroux is our best player but I'd part with him for Weber, Keith, Doughty or Pietrangelo (there I'd probably want an addition). Both #1 C & #1 D are hard to come by but the Flyers seem to be good @ drafting centers but not so good finding D.

 

If Vorachek + someone else or picks/prospects landed a 1 D that would be an easy choice.

If rumors are true Nashville wanted B Schenn, Couts & 2 of the 1st rounders rather then the 4 the OS would have yielded. I was in favor. I would have been happier if L Schenn was added in lieu of 1 of the 1sts.

[s4xon]

Apparently the Flyers have had their eye on GlenX in the last week.  They attended the 2 games the Flames played in the east in Washington and Columbus.  Baertschi reportedly is also on the radar.

 

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/07/rumor-flyers-interested-in-calgarys-glencross/

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-hockey/24045622/nhl-rumors-flyers-interested-in-flames-curtis-glencross

 

At the bargain that Scoreface's cap hit is, they had better be coughing up Voracek or Simmonds.....maybe both.

 

Baertschi is untouchable at this moment in my eyes.  We haven't even seen what the kid has to show, he just turned 21 last week.

[travel_dude]

Posted this elsewhere, but considering S4xon's post, it is more appropriate here....

 

 

The other interesting runour is that Philly had been scouting the Flames first two games; hmmmm, what would Homer be willing to trade?  Vorachek for Butler and GlenX?  Vorachek/Mezz for Smith/Stajan/2nd Rounder?

 

I know, not worth it to the Flyers.  I would gladly give up a GlenX for a Vorachek.  Like Curtis, but Vorachek fits better with our long-term strategy.  GlenX might not waive, but he could actually get some playoff time now instead of 23 years down the road.  He will no doubt slide down our depth chart over the next few years.

[DL44]

Hypothetically.. if the Flyers and Flames were to be trading partners, i don't think the Flyers can afford to rid themselves more young developing talent. 

 

If anything, i'm thinking they will be offering futures for whatever they may be interested in... or a developed player they aren't happy with.

With Dreger's ominous tweet today, perhaps they really aren't happy with Luke Schenn. A Schenn-Glencross based trade anyone?

 

 

And i guess there's that little issue of cap space as well.

[Flyerfan52]

Hypothetically.. if the Flyers and Flames were to be trading partners, i don't think the Flyers can afford to rid themselves more young developing talent. 

 

If anything, i'm thinking they will be offering futures for whatever they may be interested in... or a developed player they aren't happy with.

With Dreger's ominous tweet today, perhaps they really aren't happy with Luke Schenn. A Schenn-Glencross based trade anyone?

 

 

And i guess there's that little issue of cap space as well.

What issue with cap space? The Flyers have just over 4 million in space & you know that's burning a hole in Homer's pocket.

***********************************************************************

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see the target being GlenX but the problem is if he waives. Stempniak would fit too.

 

Mez (4.0x1), Coburn(4.5x3) or Grossmann(3.5x3) all fall into the under 30 group that could help the Flames. Grossmann would look good as the defensive conscience paired with Gio. Coburn & Grossmann both have modified NTCs so that might throw a spanner in the works.

That said I figure the Flames will end up with 1 of the Schenns if a deal gets done. If it's a bigger deal involving Calgary 1st or 2nd rounders it could be both brothers. Something like X (or Stemp), Butler (I'm not a hater) & 2014 1st rounder for the pair. [That keeps the 2015 pick for the MacDavid draft so jj is happy. ]

[DL44]

What issue with cap space? The Flyers have just over 4 million in space & you know that's burning a hole in Homer's pocket.

***********************************************************************

I wouldn't be surprised to see the target being GlenX but the problem is if he waives. Stempniak would fit too.

Mez (4.0x1), Coburn(4.5x3) or Grossmann(3.5x3) all fall into the under 30 group that could help the Flames. Grossmann would look good as the defensive conscience paired with Gio. Coburn & Grossmann both have modified NTCs so that might throw a spanner in the works.

That said I figure the Flames will end up with 1 of the Schenns if a deal gets done. If it's a bigger deal involving Calgary 1st or 2nd rounders it could be both brothers. Something like X (or Stemp), Butler (I'm not a hater) & 2014 1st rounder for the pair. [That keeps the 2015 pick for the MacDavid draft so jj is happy. ]

ewww... Snyder should just put boot firmly in Homer's butt if contemplates a deal like that.

[The_People1]

I think Brayden Schenn's value has dropped significantly since his Team Canada World Junior days.  He's since failed to break into a permanent top 6 role with Philly and has suffered 2 concussions (if i remember correctly) in the process.

 

I think he's worth a late first round pick. Between 20th to 30th.

 

Luke Schenn is even worse.  He was drafted with the potential to be a stud #1.  When he went to Philly, that was downgraded to maybe a 2/3 guy.  Now he's a solid 2nd pair, maybe 3/4/5 guy.  Worth a late 2nd round pick.

 

Glencross has high trade value due to his contract.  He gives you what David Clarkson gives you at half the cost.  Glenny should be worth a early to mid-second round pick.

[DL44]

I think Brayden Schenn's value has dropped significantly since his Team Canada World Junior days. He's since failed to break into a permanent top 6 role with Philly and has suffered 2 concussions (if i remember correctly) in the process.

I think he's worth a late first round pick. Between 20th to 30th.

Luke Schenn is even worse. He was drafted with the potential to be a stud #1. When he went to Philly, that was downgraded to maybe a 2/3 guy. Now he's a solid 2nd pair, maybe 3/4/5 guy. Worth a late 2nd round pick.

Glencross has high trade value due to his contract. He gives you what David Clarkson gives you at half the cost. Glenny should be worth a early to mid-second round pick.

B.Schenn is going to get you 50 points RIGHT NOW as a mere 21/22 yr old. His value is still very high. They would be foolish to trade him for a late round crap shoot pick that may or may not be ready in 3 or 4 yrs.

Luke Schenn.. sure..

The Glencross-Clarkson comparison is such a great one.. I couldn't help but weigh in on that debate over at HF a week or 2 ago..

EDIT:

Heh... as i type that, B. Schenn scores his second of the season... right on queue.

His team has scored 5 goals in their brutal start to this season... he's been in on 3 of them. Could be just a hot start.. or could be the next developmental step... we'll where he's at at Christmas.

[Carty]

Snyder should just put boot firmly in Homer's butt

 

I think it's more than half way there already...

 

[C_worthy]

Burke already traded Luke Schenn away once - I doubt the Flames would have any interest in him (unless its cheap)

 

Obviously they would have interest in Brayden, but the Flyers would be looking for cap relief, not moving young guys

 

I could see something like Glencross for Coburn and a 2nd or Meszaros and a 1st

 

Or Glencross and Smith/Butler  for Meszaros and Read

[DL44]

Philly...

 

10 goals scored in 7 games.

Schenn leads the team with his 4 pts.

The leading goal scorer has 3 g and has played 2 games on the season.

Giroux has 2 assists on the season and is eating 22 mins a game. Huge mins. Teams the whole team! more than any Dman.

 

Injuries to Vinny and Hartnell (don't know if they are back yet)..

 

Goaltending has been their strength! Mason was outstanding vs us.

 

Their traditionally elite PP is 6.9% on the season.  I'll assume that's one PP goal...

actually maybe 2, since Vancouver is at 10% and has 2 g on the seasons.

 

Basically they just aren't scoring.

Well they lit it up vs Luongo and the Canucks for their season high in goals scored... but they can't depend on feasting on Luongo every game.

[travel_dude]

I could see something like Glencross for Coburn and a 2nd or Meszaros and a 1st

 

Or Glencross and Smith/Butler  for Meszaros and Read

Any of those makes us better.  GlenX is lost right now, and he shows it.

 

Maybe GlenX & Smith/Butler for Coburn and a 1st.  Or Jackman & Butler for Mes and a 2nd.  GlenX might be willing to move right now, and we need to rid ourselves of a 5/6/7 defense and bottom 6 guys like Jackman.  He can be replaced by Bouma or Reinhart or Knight or Jooris or......... 

 

Package up a few players, take a bit of a salary dump, and get a 1st or 2nd + D + prospect.