Jon Gillies

[cross16]

Actually AlbertaBoy is right. Waivers don't kick on until a certain number of days prior to the first active day of the league year. Having said that I do know the time frame is so early that it would mean ortio missing almost all of camp and then sitting around waiting for the AHL to start. Not to mention sending a player down early and having him miss camp just so he doesn't get claimed on waivers is VERY poor form and I would never want to see an organization do that.

I'm not convinced he would get claimed. It's very rare for a team to go into the season and not feel set in goal at the NHL level and that's the only situation that would put him at risk. So hard to say right now until the offseason plays out but I don't think it's a guarantee the flames would lose him.

[AlbertaBoy12]

Sounds good... Wait! He will go on waiver, when called up again.

 

Im pretty sure waivers doesnt apply when getting called up on a 1 way contract. I might be wrong though.

 

Having said that I do know the time frame is so early that it would mean ortio missing almost all of camp and then sitting around waiting for the AHL to start.

 

 

Isent it with a week remaining in camp or something like that? I would say at that point we can have a pretty good judge if ortio is gunna beat out Ramo or Hiller for a job next season.

[cfreining]

It has nothing to do with the 1 way or 2 way contract.

 

 

Checked waivers entry on wiki:

 

The 2005 NHL-NHLPA collective bargaining agreement (CBA) introduced "re-entry waivers." With limited exceptions, any player who was subject to waivers before assignment to the minors must clear re-entry waivers before being called back up if said player is on a one-way contract or a two-way contract with an AHL salary in excess of $105,000. Exceptions are players who have played in over 320 professional games (180 for goaltenders) and have not spent more than 80 games on an NHL roster in the past two seasons or 40 games during the previous season. The procedure to make a claim on re-entry waivers is the same; however, teams who claim players on re-entry waivers are only responsible for half the salary and cap hit, while the original team is responsible for the other half, unless the claimed player is later assigned to the AHL again before his contract has expired, in which case the salary and cap hit comes off the books of both teams.

The CBA ratified in January 2013 eliminated re-entry waivers.

Does that mean for call ups there is no waiver procedure anymore?

[DirtyDeeds]

It has nothing to do with the 1 way or 2 way contract.

 

 

Checked waivers entry on wiki:

 

Does that mean for call ups there is no waiver procedure anymore?

No it means instead of 2 waivers to go through a player only need go through waivers when sent down. Once cleared on way down to AHL he can then be bought back with no need to clear (reentry)waivers

[cfreining]

No it means instead of 2 waivers to go through a player only need go through waivers when sent down. Once cleared on way down to AHL he can then be bought back with no need to clear (reentry)waivers

 

Thank you for the answer DD. I am just not sure, if I got it yet...

 

Is there even a time period when a player can be signed to the AHL team without the need to clear waiver? If yes, what happens with a player that did not have to clear waiver on the way down, when called up?

[kehatch]

There are no reentry waivers in the new CBA. If you are waiver eligible you have to be out on waivers when you sent down. But you never have to go on waivers to be called up.

[DirtyDeeds]

Thank you for the answer DD. I am just not sure, if I got it yet...

 

Is there even a time period when a player can be signed to the AHL team without the need to clear waiver? If yes, what happens with a player that did not have to clear waiver on the way down, when called up?

It used to be you had to clear waivers going down and coming back up when recalled. Now only when you go down.

 

There is a short period when it is safe to send players down just before the season begins. You will know when this is as the Flames send a bunch down a week or so into preseason. 

 

Ortio has his one way portion of his contract kick in next season but it is important to know that this has no bearing on his waver status. It just means he will no longer get AHL money for playing in the AHL if he is sent down. He will draw a NHL salary should he end up playing in AHL.

[cfreining]

There is a short period when it is safe to send players down just before the season begins. You will know when this is as the Flames send a bunch down a week or so into preseason.

That answers my question completely. Thanks again bud.

But if we are looking to get Ortio into NHL action it would not make sense to move him down to the AHL that early.

[DirtyDeeds]

That answers my question completely. Thanks again bud.

But if we are looking to get Ortio into NHL action it would not make sense to move him down to the AHL that early.

If we want to test him on regular season NHL games we would then have to risk the waivers by sending him down later.

[cross16]

Im pretty sure waivers doesnt apply when getting called up on a 1 way contract. I might be wrong though.

 

 

Isent it with a week remaining in camp or something like that? I would say at that point we can have a pretty good judge if ortio is gunna beat out Ramo or Hiller for a job next season.

12 days before the first game of the regular season. So if we use this season as an example he would have had to be sent down on Sept 25th and would have missed about 60% of the preseason games and camp. That's not enough time imo to get a real gauge nor is it really fair to Ortio because I don't think you are giving him a fair shake.

[DirtyDeeds]

The last part isn't entirely true. Waiver eligible players with NHL contracts have to clear waivers to go to the AHL. There isn't a "free and clear" period where you can do this without exposing the player to waivers.

Ortio will be waiver eligible next season. He will have to clear waivers to go down. Out of interest, so will Baertschi. That is likely part of the reason they traded him.

But waiver claims are pretty rare early in the preseason. There are a lot of players going down and GMs are busy evaluating what they have so it doesn't happen too often.

 

The date is 12 days before the start of the season. He could be sent back without having to clear waivers because waivers does not take effect until then.

 

Here is the complete and best article I have found on the changes and status of waivers in the New CBA:

 

http://www.litterboxcats.com/2013/10/7/4792782/nhl-waiver-waivers-cba-florida-panthers

[kehatch]

The date is 12 days before the start of the season. He could be sent back without having to clear waivers because waivers does not take effect until then.

Here is the complete and best article I have found on the changes and status of waivers in the New CBA:

http://www.litterboxcats.com/2013/10/7/4792782/nhl-waiver-waivers-cba-florida-panthers

Thanks DD. I actually deleted my post to go look this up to be sure, your just super quick! Thanks for doing the leg work for my. My mistake.

[jjgallow]

We should start an Ortio thread and just talk about Gillies in it, lol

[DirtyDeeds]

We should start an Ortio thread and just talk about Gillies in it, lol

I like Ortio. I really do. I like his progress and I think he has overcome some North American adjustments  he needed to to be able to play here.

 

I still like Gillies just a bit more. I can see an Ortio/Gillies or Gillies/ Ortio tandem not far off in the Flames future "if" they both come close to realizing their potential.

 

Until they are ready I am quite happy with Hiller and Ramo in a backup or 1b role.

[DirtyDeeds]

Thanks DD. I actually deleted my post to go look this up to be sure, your just super quick! Thanks for doing the leg work for my. My mistake.

I had to look it up after my answer to cfreining. I was not so super quick, rather already trying to find out. I knew I had this link somewhere but when you start testing new browsers and transferring bookmarks.. well the bookmark system gets all out of whack...

 

cross pretty much confirmed my thinking, but it is still something that people rarely keep track of, mostly because the situation does not come up very often at all.

 

You were exactly correct in that players have to go through waivers at the end of preseason play when every team tends to be sending down players to make the final cuts. Only a few teams have room to pick up a player from another team because they are also making cuts to their own rosters.

 

 

Edit:

 

I also find it interesting that goalies have different parameters than other players when considering waivers:

[jjgallow]

I like Ortio. I really do. I like his progress and I think he has overcome some North American adjustments  he needed to to be able to play here.

 

I still like Gillies just a bit more. I can see an Ortio/Gillies or Gillies/ Ortio tandem not far off in the Flames future "if" they both come close to realizing their potential.

 

Until they are ready I am quite happy with Hiller and Ramo in a backup or 1b role.

 

I go back and forth on this.  It's so hard to tell.   I Think I like Ortio better.   But I certainly get those who think Gillies is the better prospect.  I am still really surprised he wasn't signed last year.

[travel_dude]

I go back and forth on this.  It's so hard to tell.   I Think I like Ortio better.   But I certainly get those who think Gillies is the better prospect.  I am still really surprised he wasn't signed last year.

Having a great freshman year was one thing, following it up with a 2nd year with the same save percentage is great. Repeating that in a 3rd year is special. They wanted Gillies to continue developing in college, as I believe they thought it was best for him. We had enough option this year (or so I thought), so having Gillies play in the AHL wouldn't have been a great way to get him ready. I also believe that Gillies made his intentions know in public before there was any speculation.

I don't think Ortio is better than Gillies. Ortio is athletic, but Gillies is big and athletic. Gillies also has had a much better start to his career. I would be keen on keeping Hiller and Ramo for another year, to see if they still have the magic. Ortio and Gillies can split the season in Stockton. If we end up trading Hiller or Ramo next season, then whoever can come up.

Much like the rest of the off-season, the Hiller signing and the Ortio contract were all about risk mitigation. Nobody was sure Hiller still had it, Ramo would be kept past the TDL or Ortio would be able to shine in his stint with the Flames.

[cross16]

Not signing Gilles last year was the right move for him and the organization. He needed to prove he could put a team in his back and take over a game and he did that and not to mention they would have had Ortio taking up most of the starts in the A. Best for all parties for Ortio to get starts in the A and gilles to dominant in college.

I think Gilles has the higher upside simply based in the combination of size and athleticism. Ortio has already proven he has the mental makeup imo to be an NHL goalie and that's often the hardest thing to find and Gilles is going to have to prove he can do that at the pro level. Gilles has work to do before he is a legitimate NHL option so no need to rush him.

[jjgallow]

I get what you are saying, cross and taveldude.

 

For a self-admitted stats person, it is hard for me to watch a goalie have the exact same save percentage in the exact same league for three of his most important development years and say it was time well spent.

 

Obviously, it's not that simple and I know that.  

 

Winning the frozen four, that's huge.

 

I guess we'll see soon enough.

[travel_dude]

I get what you are saying, cross and taveldude.

 

For a self-admitted stats person, it is hard for me to watch a goalie have the exact same save percentage in the exact same league for three of his most important development years and say it was time well spent.

 

Obviously, it's not that simple and I know that.  

 

Winning the frozen four, that's huge.

 

I guess we'll see soon enough.

What you have to remember is injuries and team turnover lead to a different situation each year. If he was a .910 GAA over those three years I would be more worried, but he was stellar on a low scoring team.

As you say, we will see soon enough. Ramo came in and carried us over the goal line last night, so he is tops in my books right now. The tandem we have is good enough to continue into next season, but it depends on what the Flames want to do.

There are teams that would give us a decent return for a Hiller or signed Ramo. It's all about making the right decisions for now and the future, not looking at the a vet and saying he got us to the playoffs so we keep him forever.

[FiresideChat]

Not signing Gilles last year was the right move for him and the organization. He needed to prove he could put a team in his back and take over a game and he did that and not to mention they would have had Ortio taking up most of the starts in the A. Best for all parties for Ortio to get starts in the A and gilles to dominant in college.

I think Gilles has the higher upside simply based in the combination of size and athleticism. Ortio has already proven he has the mental makeup imo to be an NHL goalie and that's often the hardest thing to find and Gilles is going to have to prove he can do that at the pro level. Gilles has work to do before he is a legitimate NHL option so no need to rush him.

Stylistically, the goalie that Gillies reminds me the most of is Roberto Luongo, but Gillies is slightly faster laterally than Luongo is. He is a bit taller than Lu as well 6-5 to 6-3, so he'll take up even more of the net. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if in 18 months he wasn't our starting goalie.

[cfreining]

Stylistically, the goalie that Gillies reminds me the most of is Roberto Luongo, but Gillies is slightly faster laterally than Luongo is. He is a bit taller than Lu as well 6-5 to 6-3, so he'll take up even more of the net. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked if in 18 months he wasn't our starting goalie.

Maybe an issue with the double negation? I think you meant... you wouldn't be surprised, if he was our starting goalie within 18 months...

[cross16]

Stylistically, the goalie that Gillies reminds me the most of is Roberto Luongo, but Gillies is slightly faster laterally than Luongo is. He is a bit taller than Lu as well 6-5 to 6-3, so he'll take up even more of the net.

I wouldn't be shocked if in 18 months he wasn't our starting goalie.

I wouldn't say I would be shocked but it would be a surprise. As an upside Gilles reminds me of Renne a big agile goalie who makes a great first save but also the athleticism to make the recovery save. The problem is watching him in the frozen four, and at other times as well specifically world juniors, I saw a lot of Hiller. Lots of mental lapses where he loses technique or gets a bit lazy and a a soft goal goes in as well as poor puck handling. It's correctable so I'm not saying I'm concerned but it may take some time is all.

[zima]

Ok so Gillies is now a flame that doesn't mean much he could still go back to college just not play for the fiars correct ? Ok silly question I know if you sign I'm sure your intentions are to play. Ok now here is my worry we had what I thought was our goalie of the future with Brossoit we basically gave him to Edmonton huge mistake he is going to be the death of use in the near future we gave Edmonton there future fur. Do you think they will give Gillies away as well when he doesn't win right away? 

[zima]

Ok next question not as silly I don't think do the PPL of this forum think he will be the goalie of the future in other words our number 1 or will it be Ortio. Ortio is of course has to be playing in the big leagues next yr because of his contract do we trade him or Hiller or Rams ? Or do we keep all three up I know it's not unusual to have three goalies but will Harley do that not sure it is in Hartley's DNA to have that many goalies in the room all the time?