Desperately Needing....."Ovechkin"

[cccsberg]

For most of the season it has been quite clear that the Flames have been missing something, maybe a number of somethings, and that the previous GG coaching staff either "didn't get it" or was unable to identify, quantify and teach the missing elements for the team.  Well, maybe they did but the players didn't learn it or failed to practice them on the ice, in games when it mattered.... Which, we will never know.

 

In spite of some great stats the team has generated, like 1st in the NHL in CF/60, and 4th in SF/60 we were only 23rd in GF/60.  Even further lack of meaningful results is demonstrated in our being 28th in PP and 27th overall in GF (all stats from Skylardog-FlameNation comment).  In terms of advanced stats and possession, the Flames are an elite team.  This season, more than any other just goes to prove that even with all those positives it really just doesn't matter in the end if you're still missing something else.  So, what is it?  For those interested, you can track down my previous comments on Kent Wilson's The Athletic articles on the Flame's demise, or many, many comments on FlamesNation....  Here's my latest which sort of dawned on me watching the Jets dismantle the Wild last night.....

 

As I lay semi-sleeping this morning it struck me all the more that many, many of the Jets shots were one-timers.  Of course, over the past 2 years we've been treated to the force that is Laine and his mastery of the one-timer shot.  It was even noted in the game that he just smashed the all-time record for goals as a teen in the NHL.  Much like Ovechkin, long a master, Laine seems the heir apparent of goal-scoring mastery for the league.  Surprisingly, though this "skill" was pretty widespread throughout the whole team.  Several Jets were blasting one-timers from close-in to from the blue line and they were pretty effective.  But to be so it didn't come by chance.  The shooter had to find his opening, get set, and teammates had to pull defenders and the goalie away from the shooter before spotting him and sending over a pass that could be slammed home.  Compare that game to the Flames and you see a stark difference.  I seem to recall not only games, but weeks (or so it seems) that the Flames never took a single one-timer, even on the PP.   In some of my comments alluded to above I focused on offensively creating chaos and highlighting many specifics.  Suffice it to say a one-timer is one potent weapon in an arsenal that does just that, that's currently missing from the Flames.

 

In thinking back on the Jets I'm wondering if they just got "lucky" with so many players with that skill, have great coaching or something else?  Its probably a combination of the 3 but you have to think that perhaps an internal team dynamic is at play, where certain players with immense, specific skillsets transfer those same skills to others.  This could be picked up by the coaches, but is most probably just emulated by his buddies who admire the skillset and see how effective it is up close and personal, and stay late after practices to try and develop the same themselves?

 

So, looking back at the Flames I certainly think this is something we are missing, but there are definitely other skillsets we do have and are being emulated.  What do you think they are, who has them and how best can the team exploit them going forward?   Monahan, Gaudreau, Ferland, Bennett, Smith..... Give me your thoughts.

 

[cross16]

For me it's 3 things they didn't take advantage of enough. 

 

One timers

cross ice passes in the o- zone

quick transition passes D to F

 

I think the first 2 are mostly skill set related. The lack of RH shots make one timers a bit more challenging, and I think the lack of passes a skill much a player issue as a scheme. Players seemed hesitant to make those passes. 

Quick transition is on the coaching staff though. They did it last season, 16-17, and then seemed to abandon it this year. Not sure if it's a teaching thing or not but hopefully it's something Peters corrects. Canes traditionally under him are a fast transition team. 

 

I dont think these these are what held them back from being a playoff team. I'm a firm believer that their system was fine last year and if they simply didn't miss the net so much they would have been fine. However if they want to step from being just a playoff team to a contender these are aspects they need to incorporate 

[cccsberg]

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

For me it's 3 things they didn't take advantage of enough. 

 

One timers

cross ice passes in the o- zone

quick transition passes D to F

 

I think the first 2 are mostly skill set related. The lack of RH shots make one timers a bit more challenging, and I think the lack of passes a skill much a player issue as a scheme. Players seemed hesitant to make those passes. 

Quick transition is on the coaching staff though. They did it last season, 16-17, and then seemed to abandon it this year. Not sure if it's a teaching thing or not but hopefully it's something Peters corrects. Canes traditionally under him are a fast transition team. 

 

I dont think these these are what held them back from being a playoff team. I'm a firm believer that their system was fine last year and if they simply didn't miss the net so much they would have been fine. However if they want to step from being just a playoff team to a contender these are aspects they need to incorporate 

I agree with your 3 things, and that there are multiple reasons.  Definitely a coaching factor, as well as a player factor.  As a team we need to find a great shooter, which would improve the team’s dynamic in so many ways.  I love Valimaki but Boesser sure would have helped instead.

[cccsberg]

Another way to look at last season for the Flames, as well as BP’s Canes is was their historically bad shooting % just bad luck?

[travel_dude]

10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

For me it's 3 things they didn't take advantage of enough. 

 

One timers

cross ice passes in the o- zone

quick transition passes D to F

 

I think the first 2 are mostly skill set related. The lack of RH shots make one timers a bit more challenging, and I think the lack of passes a skill much a player issue as a scheme. Players seemed hesitant to make those passes. 

Quick transition is on the coaching staff though. They did it last season, 16-17, and then seemed to abandon it this year. Not sure if it's a teaching thing or not but hopefully it's something Peters corrects. Canes traditionally under him are a fast transition team. 

 

I dont think these these are what held them back from being a playoff team. I'm a firm believer that their system was fine last year and if they simply didn't miss the net so much they would have been fine. However if they want to step from being just a playoff team to a contender these are aspects they need to incorporate 

 

Skill plays a big part in one timers, but so does how they line up for it.  It seems like the Flames do not understand that a LHS on the right side can set up for the one timer with less puck movement.  There is also a stick length more net to work with.  With the Brouwerplay, we had Brouwer on RW and JH on LW.  Ferland had better success on RW on the PP, as did Tkachuk, or at least that is where they started the shift.  

 

A typical passing sequence on the PP would be:

JH on the LW 1/2 boards passes to Gio.

Gio slides to the middle then passes to Dougie or back to JH.

Neither of those passes result in a slapshot on net.

 

I do think it was hesitation to use one timers and cross creases passes.  Tkachuk had 10 PP goals, yet he was almost never the target of a pass.  I tend to view it as a failure of the PP coach.  Do they even work on those down low passes or one-timers?  You'd never know.  Perhaps they were preaching possession over shots.  

[MAC331]

59 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Another way to look at last season for the Flames, as well as BP’s Canes is was their historically bad shooting % just bad luck?

How about some plain old maturity and experience required by this team. You use WPG as your example but no where do you mention the period of time it took to gather the diverse talent they now have there. Do you know how many teams Paul Maurice has been released from teams ? LOTS.

You want a sniper like Ovechin, I would say Monahan is very close for us. Could we use 2 or 3 more absolutely ? Do we have them in our mists or do we need to look outside of the organization ? I would say if you are willing to wait for them to properly mature Tkachuk, Bennett, Jankowski, Foo, Gawdin and Dube will provide some of the scoring this team needs. I honestly think Gaudreau and Monahan are far enough along that the key piece we need is a quality RW for them. The other lines can be shaped but will need more playing time together. I still go back to TJ Oshie as the player for us but now I would be after James Neal this offseason.

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Skill plays a big part in one timers, but so does how they line up for it.  It seems like the Flames do not understand that a LHS on the right side can set up for the one timer with less puck movement.  There is also a stick length more net to work with.  With the Brouwerplay, we had Brouwer on RW and JH on LW.  Ferland had better success on RW on the PP, as did Tkachuk, or at least that is where they started the shift.  

 

A typical passing sequence on the PP would be:

JH on the LW 1/2 boards passes to Gio.

Gio slides to the middle then passes to Dougie or back to JH.

Neither of those passes result in a slapshot on net.

 

I do think it was hesitation to use one timers and cross creases passes.  Tkachuk had 10 PP goals, yet he was almost never the target of a pass.  I tend to view it as a failure of the PP coach.  Do they even work on those down low passes or one-timers?  You'd never know.  Perhaps they were preaching possession over shots.  

I cant count how many times I was yelling SHOOT at the screen, especially on the PP, only to have either finally have a shot miss the net or go straight into the goalie because hes had time to get into position. Ive watched the majority of the Jets games since their return and having such a dangerous shooter like Laine also opens up room for the rest of the players on the ice. Is there anyone in the system with that potential?

 

P.S. - Please , please quit using the bump back while trying to enter the O zone. Its effectiveness is long gone.

[conundrumed]

For one, Monahan needs more shoot-first drive, he has the best release and should lead that category for us. He has to be more selfish as do many below him on the roster.

Missing the net is a problem, too many going for the perfect shot when they should be low pad shots for rebounds. Which presents the next problem, we can’t get to the net nearly well enough.

[cccsberg]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Skill plays a big part in one timers, but so does how they line up for it.  It seems like the Flames do not understand that a LHS on the right side can set up for the one timer with less puck movement.  There is also a stick length more net to work with.  With the Brouwerplay, we had Brouwer on RW and JH on LW.  Ferland had better success on RW on the PP, as did Tkachuk, or at least that is where they started the shift.  

 

A typical passing sequence on the PP would be:

JH on the LW 1/2 boards passes to Gio.

Gio slides to the middle then passes to Dougie or back to JH.

Neither of those passes result in a slapshot on net.

 

I do think it was hesitation to use one timers and cross creases passes.  Tkachuk had 10 PP goals, yet he was almost never the target of a pass.  I tend to view it as a failure of the PP coach.  Do they even work on those down low passes or one-timers?  You'd never know.  Perhaps they were preaching possession over shots.  

Yeah, maybe so.  The passes around are fine if they are setting up a shot, but they almost never were.  I think its something they definitely need to work on.

[cccsberg]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

How about some plain old maturity and experience required by this team. You use WPG as your example but no where do you mention the period of time it took to gather the diverse talent they now have there. Do you know how many teams Paul Maurice has been released from teams ? LOTS.

You want a sniper like Ovechin, I would say Monahan is very close for us. Could we use 2 or 3 more absolutely ? Do we have them in our mists or do we need to look outside of the organization ? I would say if you are willing to wait for them to properly mature Tkachuk, Bennett, Jankowski, Foo, Gawdin and Dube will provide some of the scoring this team needs. I honestly think Gaudreau and Monahan are far enough along that the key piece we need is a quality RW for them. The other lines can be shaped but will need more playing time together. I still go back to TJ Oshie as the player for us but now I would be after James Neal this offseason.

You can only play that immaturity card so much, then its just an excuse.  Laine is JUST 20 years old and in his second year in the league.  Monahan is what, 5 years in and although he has a great wrist shot, he rarely one-times it, same with Gaudreau.  My point is that the offence needs to be quicker, and from what we saw this past season it is anything but.  I believe "maturity" is just an excuse, and that coaching was part of the problem, and that satisfaction with their current skillsets (i.e. just redoing the same things you've been doing for years) from many players is also part of the problem. The only two players I heard that were actively putting in extra time to progress skillsets were Tkachuk and Jagr.  Finally,  I never said we should acquire Ovechkin, just that we need to acquire some of that skillset in multiple guys because one-timers are very effective in getting ACTUAL results versus Corsi "look good" results.  

[cccsberg]

2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I cant count how many times I was yelling SHOOT at the screen, especially on the PP, only to have either finally have a shot miss the net or go straight into the goalie because hes had time to get into position. Ive watched the majority of the Jets games since their return and having such a dangerous shooter like Laine also opens up room for the rest of the players on the ice. Is there anyone in the system with that potential?

 

P.S. - Please , please quit using the bump back while trying to enter the O zone. Its effectiveness is long gone.

I can't recall anyone in the system that fits that bill.  Probably Spencer Foo is the closest but I really don't have a good fix on him yet.  Saying that, it probably can be developed to some extent but it sure would be nice to find one in the draft, or better yet trade for one just coming up.  In the league there are Ovechkin and Laine, of course, but then I'd really have to think hard about others.  The Canuck's Boesser I think, probably Hoffman with Ottawa, Carolina's Skinner maybe... not too many.    

 

Based on Shooting Percentage from 2017-18, who might be interesting and/or available:

Anders Lee - NYI @ 19.2%

Paul Byron - MON @ 17.4%....ooppps

Sven Baertschi - VAN @ 17.1%....ooppps

Ryan Dzingel - OTT @ 16.9%

Michael Ferland - CAL @ 14.6%

James Van Riemsdyk - TML @ 14.5%

Sebastian Aho - CAR @ 14.5%

Mark Jankowski - CAL @ 14.4%

TJ Oshie - WAS @ 14.2%

 

 

 

[DirtyDeeds]

5 hours ago, cccsberg said:

For most of the season it has been quite clear that the Flames have been missing something, maybe a number of somethings, and that the previous GG coaching staff either "didn't get it" or was unable to identify, quantify and teach the missing elements for the team.  Well, maybe they did but the players didn't learn it or failed to practice them on the ice, in games when it mattered.... Which, we will never know.

 

In spite of some great stats the team has generated, like 1st in the NHL in CF/60, and 4th in SF/60 we were only 23rd in GF/60.  Even further lack of meaningful results is demonstrated in our being 28th in PP and 27th overall in GF (all stats from Skylardog-FlameNation comment).  In terms of advanced stats and possession, the Flames are an elite team.  This season, more than any other just goes to prove that even with all those positives it really just doesn't matter in the end if you're still missing something else.  So, what is it?  For those interested, you can track down my previous comments on Kent Wilson's The Athletic articles on the Flame's demise, or many, many comments on FlamesNation....  Here's my latest which sort of dawned on me watching the Jets dismantle the Wild last night.....

 

As I lay semi-sleeping this morning it struck me all the more that many, many of the Jets shots were one-timers.  Of course, over the past 2 years we've been treated to the force that is Laine and his mastery of the one-timer shot.  It was even noted in the game that he just smashed the all-time record for goals as a teen in the NHL.  Much like Ovechkin, long a master, Laine seems the heir apparent of goal-scoring mastery for the league.  Surprisingly, though this "skill" was pretty widespread throughout the whole team.  Several Jets were blasting one-timers from close-in to from the blue line and they were pretty effective.  But to be so it didn't come by chance.  The shooter had to find his opening, get set, and teammates had to pull defenders and the goalie away from the shooter before spotting him and sending over a pass that could be slammed home.  Compare that game to the Flames and you see a stark difference.  I seem to recall not only games, but weeks (or so it seems) that the Flames never took a single one-timer, even on the PP.   In some of my comments alluded to above I focused on offensively creating chaos and highlighting many specifics.  Suffice it to say a one-timer is one potent weapon in an arsenal that does just that, that's currently missing from the Flames.

 

In thinking back on the Jets I'm wondering if they just got "lucky" with so many players with that skill, have great coaching or something else?  Its probably a combination of the 3 but you have to think that perhaps an internal team dynamic is at play, where certain players with immense, specific skillsets transfer those same skills to others.  This could be picked up by the coaches, but is most probably just emulated by his buddies who admire the skillset and see how effective it is up close and personal, and stay late after practices to try and develop the same themselves?

 

So, looking back at the Flames I certainly think this is something we are missing, but there are definitely other skillsets we do have and are being emulated.  What do you think they are, who has them and how best can the team exploit them going forward?   Monahan, Gaudreau, Ferland, Bennett, Smith..... Give me your thoughts.

 

Mony is pretty much our shooter. He has the highest GwG, most overtimer goals and a precision one timer along with a lethal wrist shot.

 

The weeks you mention would be because Money has had multiple injuries requiring surgery that hindered his performance.

[Thebrewcrew]

Here’s an unlikely but outside the box idea

 

Before anyone gets too carried away here me out...

 

Cory Perry

 

Yes he’s overpaid and may be slightly declining. I am totally aware of that. But how much do we hate playing him? He’s a pain in the back to play. He’s still about a 50 point player and he brings something that this team lacks which is a competitive nature. Can you imagine him with Tkachuk... anyway I think on our top line he’s a 30 goal guy once again

 

ANA will be most likely making changes this summer, I think they don’t wanna move Perry to us, but he eats up a lot of cap space on a team that’s a budget team. I also don’t think teams will be lining up to take Perry. 

 

My offer would be Perry for Brodie. Only because I don’t wanna give them Ferland or Bennett

[MAC331]

3 hours ago, cccsberg said:

You can only play that immaturity card so much, then its just an excuse.  Laine is JUST 20 years old and in his second year in the league.  Monahan is what, 5 years in and although he has a great wrist shot, he rarely one-times it, same with Gaudreau.  My point is that the offence needs to be quicker, and from what we saw this past season it is anything but.  I believe "maturity" is just an excuse, and that coaching was part of the problem, and that satisfaction with their current skillsets (i.e. just redoing the same things you've been doing for years) from many players is also part of the problem. The only two players I heard that were actively putting in extra time to progress skillsets were Tkachuk and Jagr.  Finally,  I never said we should acquire Ovechkin, just that we need to acquire some of that skillset in multiple guys because one-timers are very effective in getting ACTUAL results versus Corsi "look good" results.  

Well you keep thinking what you want but maturity and gained experience is what eventually wins the day for a team. You go to examples of individuals which isn't the same thing at all.

[conundrumed]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

I can't recall anyone in the system that fits that bill.  Probably Spencer Foo is the closest but I really don't have a good fix on him yet.  Saying that, it probably can be developed to some extent but it sure would be nice to find one in the draft, or better yet trade for one just coming up.  In the league there are Ovechkin and Laine, of course, but then I'd really have to think hard about others.  The Canuck's Boesser I think, probably Hoffman with Ottawa, Carolina's Skinner maybe... not too many.    

 

Based on Shooting Percentage from 2017-18, who might be interesting and/or available:

Anders Lee - NYI @ 19.2%

Paul Byron - MON @ 17.4%....ooppps

Sven Baertschi - VAN @ 17.1%....ooppps

Ryan Dzingel - OTT @ 16.9%

Michael Ferland - CAL @ 14.6%

James Van Riemsdyk - TML @ 14.5%

Sebastian Aho - CAR @ 14.5%

Mark Jankowski - CAL @ 14.4%

TJ Oshie - WAS @ 14.2%

 

 

 

I don't look at shooting %age as the way to go as it can obscure things from reality.

High peaks are typically not sustainable and players have gotten more $s than they're truly worth due to it.

I typically just look at SOG personally, as you will always find those are the guys never afraid to shoot and they're getting their shots through, for whatever reason, but it's what you want.

I look at fwd prospects that way too, rather than just focus on goals and assists.

Most players have skewed percent years for better or worse so outside of a proven scorer it can be a difficult stat, or just apply league avg % for a more realistic value. Lance Bouma anyone?

[MAC331]

3 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I don't look at shooting %age as the way to go as it can obscure things from reality.

High peaks are typically not sustainable and players have gotten more $s than they're truly worth do to it.

I typically just look at SOG personally, as you will always find those are the guys never afraid to shoot and they're getting their shots through, for whatever reason, but it's what you want.

I look at fwd prospects that way too, rather than just focus on goals and assists.

Most players have skewed percent years for better or worse so outside of a proven scorer it can be a difficult stat, or just apply league avg % for a more realistic value. Lance Bouma anyone?

Ryan Dzingel is a huge surprise being a 7th round selection. Came out of nowhere.

[cccsberg]

8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I don't look at shooting %age as the way to go as it can obscure things from reality.

High peaks are typically not sustainable and players have gotten more $s than they're truly worth due to it.

I typically just look at SOG personally, as you will always find those are the guys never afraid to shoot and they're getting their shots through, for whatever reason, but it's what you want.

I look at fwd prospects that way too, rather than just focus on goals and assists.

Most players have skewed percent years for better or worse so outside of a proven scorer it can be a difficult stat, or just apply league avg % for a more realistic value. Lance Bouma anyone?

I think you have to look at both, and of course the longer the period the better the overall read on reality.  The thing about SOG alone you don’t know how many of those are muffins versus one-timers.  Obviously you want the later.  Ok, I provided S%, I’ll have to check SOG....

[MAC331]

6 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

I think you have to look at both, and of course the longer the period the better the overall read on reality.  The thing about SOG alone you don’t know how many of those are muffins versus one-timers.  Obviously you want the later.  Ok, I provided S%, I’ll have to check SOG....

Whether it is one timers or simply good shots on net is whats important. Most goals these days in this NHL are tips, rebounds or cleaning up the garbage laying around. All these hard shots that end up past the net and end up out of the zone are useless.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Here’s an unlikely but outside the box idea

 

Before anyone gets too carried away here me out...

 

Cory Perry

 

Yes he’s overpaid and may be slightly declining. I am totally aware of that. But how much do we hate playing him? He’s a pain in the back to play. He’s still about a 50 point player and he brings something that this team lacks which is a competitive nature. Can you imagine him with Tkachuk... anyway I think on our top line he’s a 30 goal guy once again

 

ANA will be most likely making changes this summer, I think they don’t wanna move Perry to us, but he eats up a lot of cap space on a team that’s a budget team. I also don’t think teams will be lining up to take Perry. 

 

My offer would be Perry for Brodie. Only because I don’t wanna give them Ferland or Bennett

 

ANA would love you to take that contract off their books.

Anything more than Brouwer for Perry is helpng them too much.

Even that is a high cost for us.

[DHT]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Here’s an unlikely but outside the box idea

 

Before anyone gets too carried away here me out...

 

Cory Perry

 

Yes he’s overpaid and may be slightly declining. I am totally aware of that. But how much do we hate playing him? He’s a pain in the back to play. He’s still about a 50 point player and he brings something that this team lacks which is a competitive nature. Can you imagine him with Tkachuk... anyway I think on our top line he’s a 30 goal guy once again

 

ANA will be most likely making changes this summer, I think they don’t wanna move Perry to us, but he eats up a lot of cap space on a team that’s a budget team. I also don’t think teams will be lining up to take Perry. 

 

My offer would be Perry for Brodie. Only because I don’t wanna give them Ferland or Bennett

I would rather pulling my hair watching Brodie for another season than to have Perry playing here. I can't stand Perry. He is such a dirty player. No thanks!

[Thebrewcrew]

2 minutes ago, DHT said:

I would rather pulling my hair watching Brodie for another season than to have Perry playing here. I can't stand Perry. He is such a dirty player. No thanks!

Would you rather have him tormenting Mcdavid for us or him tormenting Johnny?

 

I also agree Perry is annoying and dirty but it would sure be nice to have him 

[DHT]

45 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Would you rather have him tormenting Mcdavid for us or him tormenting Johnny?

 

I also agree Perry is annoying and dirty but it would sure be nice to have him 

I rather have him as enemy than to have him as friend. He is a good player but I just don't like him and I would never want him on my team.

[cccsberg]

17 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Mony is pretty much our shooter. He has the highest GwG, most overtimer goals and a precision one timer along with a lethal wrist shot.

 

The weeks you mention would be because Money has had multiple injuries requiring surgery that hindered his performance.

Mony is good I agree, and hopefully any injury issues get cleared up this summer and next Fall he comes back even stronger.  Being that he is our shooter, I'm wondering why he never gets the PP shooter opportunity, e.g. Ovechkin or Laine, just the guy in the slot in front of the net which they try to feed occasionally?  

[cccsberg]

15 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Whether it is one timers or simply good shots on net is whats important. Most goals these days in this NHL are tips, rebounds or cleaning up the garbage laying around. All these hard shots that end up past the net and end up out of the zone are useless.

I'm pretty sure Laine and Ovechkin are close to 100% straight shots.  And pretty good at it too, but only in concert with line mates who work with them to set it up.  

[travel_dude]

43 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Mony is good I agree, and hopefully any injury issues get cleared up this summer and next Fall he comes back even stronger.  Being that he is our shooter, I'm wondering why he never gets the PP shooter opportunity, e.g. Ovechkin or Laine, just the guy in the slot in front of the net which they try to feed occasionally?  

 

Both are wingers.  Monahan is almost always in the slot.  Ferland or Janko on the RW could be in the right spot for a one timer.  Both have good releases.