So Where do we go from here? Analysis & Predictions

[MAC331]

10 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I won't be surprised at all if he ends up bouncing between the press box and the bench.  The Flames will probably upgrade on wing, and we have guys like Foo fighting for a spot.

 

I also won't be surprised if he ends up playing 70+ games on the NHL. 

 

My point is that he has 39 points in 3 NHL seasons. Penciling him in for 40+ points on the top line seems premature. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope he does. And maybe people spent more time watching him in Ottawa then I did. But I certainly don't have that expectation going into next season. 

I don't think watching him in OTT would tell you much of anything to go on. I don't think BT went out and wasted a 2nd round pick without a plan for him on this team.

[kehatch]

24 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I don't think watching him in OTT would tell you much of anything to go on. I don't think BT went out and wasted a 2nd round pick without a plan for him on this team.

 

Since Ottawa is his only NHL team so far that is all we have to go on. I agree there is a plan and the Flames like him. But I don't think its to be a scoring winger on the top line, especially this season.

[MAC331]

Just now, kehatch said:

 

Since Ottawa is his only NHL team so far that is all we have to go on. I agree there is a plan and the Flames like him. But I don't think its to be a scoring winger on the top line, especially this season.

I agree he likely won't be near the top line until they see what they have in him. I watched Lazar in Junior and he has some smarts and he has some size to him putting him with Bennett on RW makes the most sense IMO.

[cross16]

On 7/16/2017 at 0:53 AM, The_People1 said:

My problem with Gaudreau and Monahan is that they don't even have elite chemistry amongst themselves.  I know I know, what and I taking about right?  But it's true.  Coaches married them together because they were our best players.  They've find a way to make it work despite themselves.

 

If Bennett ever pans out, then Gaudreau-Bennett is a better match of speed and skill.  Tkachuk-Monahan could prove to be a better match for Monahan.

 

This is not even remotely true....

 

Basically since they've been together those two have been one of the most successful lines in hockey but just about any stat you want to use to measure. They are an elite combo, no question and that includes playing with basically a revolving door of poor choices and they still stand up among the best. If you are looking for a better than that you have very unrealistic expectations. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

This is not even remotely true....

 

Basically since they've been together those two have been one of the most successful lines in hockey but just about any stat you want to use to measure. They are an elite combo, no question and that includes playing with basically a revolving door of poor choices and they still stand up among the best. If you are looking for a better than that you have very unrealistic expectations. 

Ive said it before but the past two 2 seasons gaudreau has been on pace for 70 + points, two seasons ago he reached that because he wasent injured and played a bit better. Mony has been basically a 60 point center the past 3 seasons, both of them playing with a revolving door of wingers everyone is far to hard on this line. I think the goal should be to fix bennetts line for that third line of attack, and if we can find a good RW in the process to replace ferland that would be awesome. But mony and johnny should continue producing at elite levels regardless.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

This is not even remotely true....

 

Basically since they've been together those two have been one of the most successful lines in hockey but just about any stat you want to use to measure. They are an elite combo, no question and that includes playing with basically a revolving door of poor choices and they still stand up among the best. If you are looking for a better than that you have very unrealistic expectations. 

 

They have produced undeniable results but based on "average" chemistry at best.  It is not unrealistic to believe they will achieve better results separated.

 

How many times did Johnny enter the offensive zone last season and no one else was there to support him?  Because Monahan was too slow.

 

Again, Johnny had better chemistry with Hudler than he had had with Monahan.  In the World Cup, Johnny excelled with speed and skilled linemates.  None of this "size" stuff.  And we are concerned giving Johnny size... Brouwer, Colborne, Chiasson, Ferland, etc.  

 

We won't do it but if we traded Bennett for Matt Duchene, then Gaudreau - Duchene would be a handful to contain.

 

I'm convinced Johnny needs a "Pararin" type of linemate to take him to the 100-point ceiling where he belongs.  Small, skilled, speed, agility, elusive, smart, etc.

 

As for Monahan, if all goes well, he will settle into the 2nd line Center role to relieve Backlund.  Jankowski emerges as our 3rd line Center.  Our first line will be Gaudreau - Bennett - high end skilled guy

 

 

[MAC331]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

They have produced undeniable results but based on "average" chemistry at best.  It is not unrealistic to believe they will achieve better results separated.

 

How many times did Johnny enter the offensive zone last season and no one else was there to support him?  Because Monahan was too slow.

 

Again, Johnny had better chemistry with Hudler than he had had with Monahan.  In the World Cup, Johnny excelled with speed and skilled linemates.  None of this "size" stuff.  And we are concerned giving Johnny size... Brouwer, Colborne, Chiasson, Ferland, etc.  

 

We won't do it but if we traded Bennett for Matt Duchene, then Gaudreau - Duchene would be a handful to contain.

 

I'm convinced Johnny needs a "Pararin" type of linemate to take him to the 100-point ceiling where he belongs.  Small, skilled, speed, agility, elusive, smart, etc.

 

As for Monahan, if all goes well, he will settle into the 2nd line Center role to relieve Backlund.  Jankowski emerges as our 3rd line Center.  Our first line will be Gaudreau - Bennett - high end skilled guy

 

 

I agree with you on the skilled RW thinking but I fail to see the need to take Monahan out of the equation when you know that part works.

[MAC331]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

They have produced undeniable results but based on "average" chemistry at best.  It is not unrealistic to believe they will achieve better results separated.

 

How many times did Johnny enter the offensive zone last season and no one else was there to support him?  Because Monahan was too slow.

 

Again, Johnny had better chemistry with Hudler than he had had with Monahan.  In the World Cup, Johnny excelled with speed and skilled linemates.  None of this "size" stuff.  And we are concerned giving Johnny size... Brouwer, Colborne, Chiasson, Ferland, etc.  

 

We won't do it but if we traded Bennett for Matt Duchene, then Gaudreau - Duchene would be a handful to contain.

 

I'm convinced Johnny needs a "Pararin" type of linemate to take him to the 100-point ceiling where he belongs.  Small, skilled, speed, agility, elusive, smart, etc.

 

As for Monahan, if all goes well, he will settle into the 2nd line Center role to relieve Backlund.  Jankowski emerges as our 3rd line Center.  Our first line will be Gaudreau - Bennett - high end skilled guy

 

 

I agree with you on the skilled RW thinking but I fail to see the need to take Monahan out of the equation when you know that part works.

[cross16]

34 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

I'm convinced Johnny needs a "Pararin" type of linemate to take him to the 100-point ceiling where he belongs.  Small, skilled, speed, agility, elusive, smart, etc.

 

As for Monahan, if all goes well, he will settle into the 2nd line Center role to relieve Backlund.  Jankowski emerges as our 3rd line Center.  Our first line will be Gaudreau - Bennett - high end skilled guy

 

 

 

OK so this is why I think we are off as we view this quite differently. I don't view Johnny as a 100Pt guy I think he is what he is a 70-80 guy and I think Monahan is a number one center. Maybe not elite, but i'm hard pressed to find 15 centers that are better than Monahan. I don't think a player ever "needs" someone to get them to the 100pt level. 100pts means you are an elite borerline hall of fame type player and those players get there on their own, and that's not Johnny IMO.

 

for me when you have a pair that excels as much as Johnny/Mondy due, and that includes a revolving door or RW and mostly scrubs, it makes zero sense why you would questions the chemistry becuase all the data and results tell you differently. They are one of the best groupings in the NHL.

[Cowtownguy]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

OK so this is why I think we are off as we view this quite differently. I don't view Johnny as a 100Pt guy I think he is what he is a 70-80 guy and I think Monahan is a number one center. Maybe not elite, but i'm hard pressed to find 15 centers that are better than Monahan. I don't think a player ever "needs" someone to get them to the 100pt level. 100pts means you are an elite borerline hall of fame type player and those players get there on their own, and that's not Johnny IMO.

 

for me when you have a pair that excels as much as Johnny/Mondy due, and that includes a revolving door or RW and mostly scrubs, it makes zero sense why you would questions the chemistry becuase all the data and results tell you differently. They are one of the best groupings in the NHL.

I agree with Peeps on this one. I do believe that Johnny is being held back, and with more skilled players around him, he performs even better. When I have watched him in other settings with faster players, he is way more lethal than he is on the Flames. Put a solid winger on the line and he will impress even more than he does now. Maybe Johnny and Monahan can develop more chemistry in the future. It just seems to me that when you have two top players not performing at their best, why not give the duo a chance and add another RW? GG can always shuffle if he deems fit. I am just saying that different combos can be tried earlier in the season, and if they don't work out, go back to the original pairings.

 

I take ABB12's point that we may have to make due with what we have. Maybe it makes sense to let the season progress and see if a player becomes available. I think that if you add another scoring threat on that line, however, it becomes very difficult for the opposition to defend against them.

[AlbertaBoy12]

5 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I take ABB12's point that we may have to make due with what we have. Maybe it makes sense to let the season progress and see if a player becomes available. I think that if you add another scoring threat on that line, however, it becomes very difficult for the opposition to defend against them.

I agree with your points. I just dont think there is a trade out there that makes sense right now, and I think the team wants to see how ferland does, or else why would BT come out saying he will start on the top line. BT is always very tactical with what he says.

[cross16]

I guess I don't understand where people come up with this idea that he performs better with more talent around him. Because he had 4 points in 3 games with Team NA? Do people honesty think he looked more dangerous in those 3 games that at any point during his NHL career? I sure don't. Is it because he looked great at the World Cup and then came back and struggled earlier on? Is there no consideration that he went from playing a wide open system perfectly suited to his game and then came back to the Flames and played a much more complex one? The only reason is he played with better talent?

 

Gaudreua's Points per game in the NHL is 0.88. The World cup it was 1.33 and in the world championships its 1.32. so factor in a decrease in quality of competition, bigger ice factor and the sample size, I don't think its fair to draw the conclusion that Gadreau produces that much more with more talent or that fact that Monahan "drags" him down. Keep in mind when they took Johnny off Mony's line last year it's not like he starting lighting it up.  

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it just seems incredible crazy to me that anyone would argue that one of the best producing combos in the NHL for the last 3 years lacks chemistry. 

 

[MAC331]

16 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I agree with Peeps on this one. I do believe that Johnny is being held back, and with more skilled players around him, he performs even better. When I have watched him in other settings with faster players, he is way more lethal than he is on the Flames. Put a solid winger on the line and he will impress even more than he does now. Maybe Johnny and Monahan can develop more chemistry in the future. It just seems to me that when you have two top players not performing at their best, why not give the duo a chance and add another RW? GG can always shuffle if he deems fit. I am just saying that different combos can be tried earlier in the season, and if they don't work out, go back to the original pairings.

 

I take ABB12's point that we may have to make due with what we have. Maybe it makes sense to let the season progress and see if a player becomes available. I think that if you add another scoring threat on that line, however, it becomes very difficult for the opposition to defend against them.

Are we not all saying basically the same thing we all agree on, get a more skilled RW who is a similar threat to JG. I don't think taking the chemistry and reads they have together and splitting them up gains you anything. Hudler was good with them because he first had great experience, was both a good passer and shooter. Nobody is disputing what the line needs.

[MAC331]

8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I guess I don't understand where people come up with this idea that he performs better with more talent around him. Because he had 4 points in 3 games with Team NA? Do people honesty think he looked more dangerous in those 3 games that at any point during his NHL career? I sure don't. Is it because he looked great at the World Cup and then came back and struggled earlier on? Is there no consideration that he went from playing a wide open system perfectly suited to his game and then came back to the Flames and played a much more complex one? The only reason is he played with better talent?

 

Gaudreua's Points per game in the NHL is 0.88. The World cup it was 1.33 and in the world championships its 1.32. so factor in a decrease in quality of competition, bigger ice factor and the sample size, I don't think its fair to draw the conclusion that Gadreau produces that much more with more talent or that fact that Monahan "drags" him down. Keep in mind when they took Johnny off Mony's line last year it's not like he starting lighting it up.  

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it just seems incredible crazy to me that anyone would argue that one of the best producing combos in the NHL for the last 3 years lacks chemistry. 

 

If anything heading into this season I thought Monahan was a lot more accomplished carry and keeping possession of the puck going into the offensive zone.

[Cowtownguy]

22 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

I agree with your points. I just dont think there is a trade out there that makes sense right now, and I think the team wants to see how ferland does, or else why would BT come out saying he will start on the top line. BT is always very tactical with what he says.

That is the impression that I get as well. I am not sure if that means they have that much faith in Ferland or there is just not anything there to obtain as an improvement.

 

16 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it just seems incredible crazy to me that anyone would argue that one of the best producing combos in the NHL for the last 3 years lacks chemistry. 

I don't think that anyone is saying they have no chemistry. The points show that they are skilled players. My point is just that a third offensive threat takes a bit of the pressure off of Johnny and opens up space for him. Imagine if a Panarin-like player were available. I suspect that it would be much more difficult to handle the line, and Johnny could play more wide open. 

[cross16]

16 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

That is the impression that I get as well. I am not sure if that means they have that much faith in Ferland or there is just not anything there to obtain as an improvement.

 

I don't think that anyone is saying they have no chemistry. The points show that they are skilled players. My point is just that a third offensive threat takes a bit of the pressure off of Johnny and opens up space for him. Imagine if a Panarin-like player were available. I suspect that it would be much more difficult to handle the line, and Johnny could play more wide open. 

 

I'm all for an upgrade to the top line. I think a more natural finisher and someone who can snipe the puck on a frequent basis would be great but i'm not sure it would be a night and day different and I certainly don't think it would elevate Johnny to 90-100 pt category. The only trouble I have with Johnny/Mony is consistency. They are tremendous one night and then can struggle other nights. Now that is very common but I think this is where a better top line option could help I agree there, but I also don't think one is coming. Flames just lack the trade assets to get one after the Smith/Hamonic deal IMO. 

[Flyerfan52]

48 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

I agree with Peeps on this one. I do believe that Johnny is being held back, and with more skilled players around him, he performs even better. When I have watched him in other settings with faster players, he is way more lethal than he is on the Flames. Put a solid winger on the line and he will impress even more than he does now. Maybe Johnny and Monahan can develop more chemistry in the future. It just seems to me that when you have two top players not performing at their best, why not give the duo a chance and add another RW? GG can always shuffle if he deems fit. I am just saying that different combos can be tried earlier in the season, and if they don't work out, go back to the original pairings.

 

I take ABB12's point that we may have to make due with what we have. Maybe it makes sense to let the season progress and see if a player becomes available. I think that if you add another scoring threat on that line, however, it becomes very difficult for the opposition to defend against them.

Small, skilled, fast players are fun & exciting to watch on the big ice under the more stringent rules of the IIHF. Unfortunately the players that fit that description & are able/willing to stand up for themselves are rare (think back to Theo Fleury). In the NHL having 3 of those on any line means they'll be pushed around. Even if we have 2 defense willing & able to stand up for them we'd just keep seeing 1 of those D in the box as we try to kill off PP after PP & those small skilled guys don't play much on the PK.

 

 

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

OK so this is why I think we are off as we view this quite differently. I don't view Johnny as a 100Pt guy I think he is what he is a 70-80 guy and I think Monahan is a number one center. 

 

Perhaps that's where we differ in opinion.  Johnny has a higher ceiling than 70-80 and if he only had a linemate who can keep up with him.  

[AlbertaBoy12]

35 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Perhaps that's where we differ in opinion.  Johnny has a higher ceiling than 70-80 and if he only had a linemate who can keep up with him.  

How does he have a higher ceiling? in the past couple years very few players have reached above 80 points and only two players have surpassed 100 points. Johnny hit 78 two seasons ago with mony and hudler, so what exactly is the problem? Not to mention even with the "horrible" play last season he still was on pace for 70.

[kehatch]

39 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Perhaps that's where we differ in opinion.  Johnny has a higher ceiling than 70-80 and if he only had a linemate who can keep up with him.  

 

There are four players in the entire NHL that you might consider 100 points guys (Malkin, Crosby, McDavid, Ovechkin), and even that is a stretch since these guys rarely accomplish it.  The Flames have a number of issues the GM can concern himself over.  But a lack of chemistry between Gaudreau and Monahan isn't one of them.   

 

 

[DirtyDeeds]

Iggy came close to 100 points 3 times in his career.

 

 

Point is he never quite made it to 100 pt in any season.

 

Time to temper our expectations a lot before we anoint anyone on the Flames as a 100 point player.

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

8 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Iggy came close to 100 points 3 times in his career.

 

 

Point is he never quite made it to 100 pt in any season.

 

Time to temper our expectations a lot before we anoint anyone on the Flames as a 100 point player.

 

Also to support your arguement it was a different NHL back then, only 2 players have had 100 points in the past few seasons, its a pretty rare accomplishment now

[robrob74]

5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I'm all for an upgrade to the top line. I think a more natural finisher and someone who can snipe the puck on a frequent basis would be great but i'm not sure it would be a night and day different and I certainly don't think it would elevate Johnny to 90-100 pt category. The only trouble I have with Johnny/Mony is consistency. They are tremendous one night and then can struggle other nights. Now that is very common but I think this is where a better top line option could help I agree there, but I also don't think one is coming. Flames just lack the trade assets to get one after the Smith/Hamonic deal IMO. 

 

 

I agree with this. 

 

Monahan looked better when Hudler was there, because the skill of Huds and Gaudreau opened up the ice for him to dance a bit more as well. Without an extra skilled guy there, it had looked like Johnny's room tightened up. Ferland was good off and on... but they do need a skilled guy there. Ferland shoes flashes. 

 

I think he can, but needs to be more confident more often. But if not, they need someone skilled to keep the space opened for them.

 

Monahan has chemistry with Johnny, but that 3rd skilled player makes it even more evident. 

[kehatch]

The thing holding back the Monahan line isn't the RW and it isn't a lack of chemistry. It's our inability to put out three effective lines. 

 

 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Just now, kehatch said:

The thing holding back the Monahan line isn't the RW and it isn't a lack of chemistry. It's our inability to put out three effective lines. 

 

 

It least someone sees this.