DirtyDeeds Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 The Flames have enough money that they don't have to worry about cap recapture in this case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8 year deal for $46.8 million, with an AAV of $5.85 m: Y1: $7 million ($6 m in signing bonus) Y2: $7 million ($6 m in signing bonus) Y3: $6.5 million ($5.5 m in signing bonus)[limited NTC ends prior to year 3] Y4: $3.85 million ($2.75 m in signing bonus) Y5: $3.75 million ($2.75 m in signing bonus) Y6: $6 million ($5 m in signing bonus) Y7: $6.35 million ($5 m in signing bonus, for a total of $33 m in non-escrowed money) Y8: $6.35 million 9 year deal for $49.05 m, with an AAV of $5.45 m: Y1: $7 m ($6 m in signing bonus) Y2: $7 m ($6 m in signing bonus)[limited NTC ends prior to Year 2] Y3: $6.8 m ($5.75 m in signing bonus) Y4: $6.25 m ($5.25 m in signing bonus) Y5: $4 m ($3 m in signing bonus) Y6: $3.75 m ($2.75 m in signing bonus) Y7: $3.75 m ($2.75 in signing bonus) Y8: $5.25 m ($3.5 m in signing bonus) Y9: $5.25 m I was under the impression that an 8 year contract is the max any team can do and that is only if the player is already signed with the team. .7 years if they are signed with another team. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I was under the impression that an 8 year contract is the max any team can do and that is only if the player is already signed with the team. .7 years if they are signed with another team. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken. You are correct. Also I was doing some reading and signing bonuses are subject to escrow. The major advantage to the player is that they are getting more guaranteed money from the team. If they are bought out they still have to pay the player all the signing bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 You are correct. Also I was doing some reading and signing bonuses are subject to escrow. The major advantage to the player is that they are getting more guaranteed money from the team. If they are bought out they still have to pay the player all the signing bonus. So I am thinging the heavily signing bonus structured contract that RoR signed was not much to do with escrow but rather to ensure that he would get most of his money should he be bought out.. interesting.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 BT has not made any bone head moves yet but signing GIO to anything over 6 mill for 3 will set this club back years in one stroke of the pen. He is under contract for 1 more year, I let this ride out and see what kind of season he is having. It is important but there is no rush. Really it is corporate gambling. If GIo has a poor season , BT has leverage but if he comes out as hot as last year, than the advantage moves the other way. If the asking price right now is 9, my current counter is 6. BT has to be extremely cautious as he could set this rebuild back in the stroke of a pen years by agreeing to a ridiculous contract such as what is being requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 BT has not made any bone head moves yet but signing GIO to anything over 6 mill for 3 will set this club back years in one stroke of the pen. He is under contract for 1 more year, I let this ride out and see what kind of season he is having. It is important but there is no rush. Really it is corporate gambling. If GIo has a poor season , BT has leverage but if he comes out as hot as last year, than the advantage moves the other way. If the asking price right now is 9, my current counter is 6. BT has to be extremely cautious as he could set this rebuild back in the stroke of a pen years by agreeing to a ridiculous contract such as what is being requested. I don' think your suggestion is the best idea. Waiting out his last contract year in hope he has a poor year of performance just to save a little money. This does not send the right message to your teams captain and arguably best player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 BT has not made any bone head moves yet but signing GIO to anything over 6 mill for 3 will set this club back years in one stroke of the pen. He is under contract for 1 more year, I let this ride out and see what kind of season he is having. It is important but there is no rush. Really it is corporate gambling. If GIo has a poor season , BT has leverage but if he comes out as hot as last year, than the advantage moves the other way. If the asking price right now is 9, my current counter is 6. BT has to be extremely cautious as he could set this rebuild back in the stroke of a pen years by agreeing to a ridiculous contract such as what is being requested. Smart GMs should keep the contract marketable for the player/asset, you don't want an asset you can't peddle later. Everyone loves Giordano but is he worth 9M per season no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Smart GMs should keep the contract marketable for the player/asset, you don't want an asset you can't peddle later. Everyone loves Giordano but is he worth 9M per season no. Right now, he is every bit worth $9m as any d-man in the league. He has the same value as a Subban, Weber, Suter, etc. The best thing to do is to pay the premium for the good years and pay less for the declining years. I don't think a 8 year deal makes much sense, but there are rare cases where a d-man continues his play into his late 30's. I'm thinking 6 years is the maximum Gio wants to play anyway. People tend to look at the future value of a d-man and say that they will not be worth x dollars when they are 36 or older. But what is the future value of a culture-changing, fiercely competitive, leader? Add to add to that, what is the going rate in 6 years for a top d-man in the league? Middle pairing d-man? 3rd pairing? We don't really know. A guy like Russell may be making $6m for being a 2nd pairing player. My only concern with the deal for Gio is how it affects the roster. If it means that we have to trade Wideman, well I hope we have a backup plan. If it means trading any of the core, then we are in doodoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I don' think your suggestion is the best idea. Waiting out his last contract year in hope he has a poor year of performance just to save a little money. This does not send the right message to your teams captain and arguably best player. I am not suggesting waiting out his contract to expire I am saying there is no rush, because of the gap in dollars. The message I send is I will not be held hostage to any player, regardless of who they may be. If the dollar amounts do not meet the plan for the future. Really GIO is not worth 9 million dollars to the Flames or any other club, as indicated by our ability to move to the 2nd round of the playoffs. we can survive with out him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I am not suggesting waiting out his contract to expire I am saying there is no rush, because of the gap in dollars. The message I send is I will not be held hostage to any player, regardless of who they may be. If the dollar amounts do not meet the plan for the future. Really GIO is not worth 9 million dollars to the Flames or any other club, as indicated by our ability to move to the 2nd round of the playoffs. we can survive with out him. I don't think Gio is trying to hold the team hostage, asking for $9m is just part of the negotiation. His side starts high, Treliving starts low and they meet somewhere in the middle. To me its as simple as that. We may have advanced to the 2nd round past a very weak Vancouver team without Gio, but this team isn't a playoff team without him. He sets the tone for the team. Brodie and Hamilton are very good young defensemen but neither are number 1 defenseman, Giordano is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Right now, he is every bit worth $9m as any d-man in the league. He has the same value as a Subban, Weber, Suter, etc. The best thing to do is to pay the premium for the good years and pay less for the declining years. I don't think a 8 year deal makes much sense, but there are rare cases where a d-man continues his play into his late 30's. I'm thinking 6 years is the maximum Gio wants to play anyway. People tend to look at the future value of a d-man and say that they will not be worth x dollars when they are 36 or older. But what is the future value of a culture-changing, fiercely competitive, leader? Add to add to that, what is the going rate in 6 years for a top d-man in the league? Middle pairing d-man? 3rd pairing? We don't really know. A guy like Russell may be making $6m for being a 2nd pairing player. My only concern with the deal for Gio is how it affects the roster. If it means that we have to trade Wideman, well I hope we have a backup plan. If it means trading any of the core, then we are in doodoo. Well for the record I don't think they are worth 9M either. Most NHL GMs throw money around like it's candy. Let me put it another way at this stage of where we are I don't think we should be paying anyone 9M. I don't think Gio is trying to hold the team hostage, asking for $9m is just part of the negotiation. His side starts high, Treliving starts low and they meet somewhere in the middle. To me its as simple as that. We may have advanced to the 2nd round past a very weak Vancouver team without Gio, but this team isn't a playoff team without him. He sets the tone for the team. Brodie and Hamilton are very good young defensemen but neither are number 1 defenseman, Giordano is. On this I think we all agree. I just wish this was done with . LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I don't think Gio is trying to hold the team hostage, asking for $9m is just part of the negotiation. His side starts high, Treliving starts low and they meet somewhere in the middle. To me its as simple as that. We may have advanced to the 2nd round past a very weak Vancouver team without Gio, but this team isn't a playoff team without him. He sets the tone for the team. Brodie and Hamilton are very good young defensemen but neither are number 1 defenseman, Giordano is. I understand the process as I deal with it daily. There is a balance point for both sides, there has to be. It is this process that creates huge problems for many clubs. To many GM's fold under the pressure of losing said guy, so they sign them to ridiculous contracts. I may be of the other consensus but he is not worth 9 mill or 8 million. One good year after 9 does not equal $5 million dollar raise or even 4 million . I am fine with signing Gio to a contract suitable to both sides. I am also OK if he wants to get greedy by shipping his arse out of town to the highest bidder. IMHO this process sets the stage for future contracts. BT has to be fair but firm with the process, where self over valued greedy is not part of the Flames future plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I read an NBC article the other day talking about how the Flames might have to trade Giordano. NBC. Calgary. July. Yeah. This will be a massive distraction if it bleeds into October. We are rebuilding. Anaheim just signed Kesler to a massive contract. It helps them today because they get to keep him. It's going to hurt them in the future because he won't be able to perform to his dollar figure as he gets older. It's a now contract. The Flames are rebuilding. We can't afford a now contract. We need a contract that won't cripple us in the future. If we can't sign Giordano to a dollar sign and term that works then we need to do the responsible thing and trade him. That said, I believe the Flames will sign him to a contract that makes sense. I also believe Treliving will move him if they can't, especially after getting Hamilton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbertaBoy12 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Im going to have to agree with you kehatch, I dont see the flames signing gio long term to something that doesnt make sense for the team. Also im not sure GIo is the type of guy that will force the team into that. We have seen other players take less then they are worth to build a cup contender. I personally wouldnt want to sign Gio for anything north of 7 and would feel more comfortable for a short term deal at 6.5m aav. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I really like the model that the Blue Jays use, they have an internal policy to not sign a player to more than 5 years. It gives them flexibility and not stuck with aging assets (except Reyes and Dickey, but that is a whole other discussion.). The downside of that is that it keeps them from keeping or signing elite talent. The way the NHL is going elite talent gets paid, Giordano is an elite talent. If we want to keep Giordano we will have to be prepared to over pay him at the end of the contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I really like the model that the Blue Jays use, they have an internal policy to not sign a player to more than 5 years. It gives them flexibility and not stuck with aging assets (except Reyes and Dickey, but that is a whole other discussion.). The downside of that is that it keeps them from keeping or signing elite talent. The way the NHL is going elite talent gets paid, Giordano is an elite talent. If we want to keep Giordano we will have to be prepared to over pay him at the end of the contract. I like the 5 year deal idea, give him 7.5M and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I read an NBC article the other day talking about how the Flames might have to trade Giordano. NBC. Calgary. July. Yeah. This will be a massive distraction if it bleeds into October. I agree, it will be a massive distraction if we don't sign him prior to the start of the season. If he has a great season, then there will be increased pressure to sign him to a deal. If he does poorly, then there will be pressure to trade him before TDL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame111 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 No one has even whispered about Hudler and he is in the same position. I don't think it is a big distraction. Sure it is a distraction but it isn't the end of the world. The year before Iggy's monster contract he held out right into camp... It is not the end of the world if Gio plays out his contract year. They are all professionals here. I would even argue the opposite. Gio took a serious injury, BT almost has to do his due diligence and observe Gio's game post-injury next season before locking in on a contract. That is just BT doing his due diligence, it is his responsibility to the team and it is nothing personal against Gio and his history with the Flames... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 No one has even whispered about Hudler and he is in the same position. I don't think it is a big distraction. Sure it is a distraction but it isn't the end of the world. The year before Iggy's monster contract he held out right into camp... It is not the end of the world if Gio plays out his contract year. They are all professionals here. I would even argue the opposite. Gio took a serious injury, BT almost has to do his due diligence and observe Gio's game post-injury next season before locking in on a contract. That is just BT doing his due diligence, it is his responsibility to the team and it is nothing personal against Gio and his history with the Flames... History has shown it IS a huge distraction. We aren't the first team to go through this. Plus, there has been plenty of conversation about Hudler. But he isn't the captain and he doesn't have the same impact to the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Bouma's arbitration hearing is Wednesday, with Jooris and Byron on deck. I'm guessing that's first on the agenda. There's plenty of time. Settle out the roster, reach a deal with Gio, move on to the forwards next year. NBC has nothing hockey to talk about, might as well poke around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 I want him at 7M I feel like that was where the bar was set in the previous CBA negotiations and GMs paying more doesn't fit into that cap system they created. That elite money doesnt fit in this cap world and Chicago is proving it. Gio should be at 7 or less and that fits others into the system when they earn their raises. If he wants more, trade him. We need players that fit into what we are trying to build. As a player and what he brings does fit, but not at such a high cost. I agree with others. He has had 1.5 years of being a really good player, where as other years he wasn't this good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KACaribou Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 I really like the model that the Blue Jays use, they have an internal policy to not sign a player to more than 5 years. It gives them flexibility and not stuck with aging assets (except Reyes and Dickey, but that is a whole other discussion.). The downside of that is that it keeps them from keeping or signing elite talent. The way the NHL is going elite talent gets paid, Giordano is an elite talent. If we want to keep Giordano we will have to be prepared to over pay him at the end of the contract. Instead of being like the Blue Jays who haven't made the playoffs for over two decades we could be like the Cardinals who have made the playoffs 13 times since the last time Toronto did. When Albert Pujols turned down $25 million over 5 years they let him walk. Since then they haven't done too bad, and Albert's career has tumbled since (though he's having a peculiar late-career power season this year - hmmmmm?). Point being, I don't think a smart franchise over-pays for aging talent - even elite talent. But I understand your point of view Jtech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame111 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 History has shown it IS a huge distraction. We aren't the first team to go through this. Plus, there has been plenty of conversation about Hudler. But he isn't the captain and he doesn't have the same impact to the team. Hudler may be the Captain if Gio isn't signed... We should not be surprised on the hold-out at this time. Given that the Gio camp is starting with such a huge number and given Gio's age I am not sure we should even expect a contract prior to the season starting at this point. Again Gio is under contract for all of next year. Again it is nothing personal but BT MUST do his due diligence for the club and that will mean assessing Gio post-injury on the Flames. For all we know a Brodie / Hamilton combo may surpass Gio on the top pairing. Now what do you do? Does anyone in their right mind sign a long-term contract for 7 million plus for a 2nd pairing D man? You have to steel your emotions in these situations. This decision will have a huge impact on the Flames long-term and potentially hinder the team 3 years out effecting the ability for the Flames to compete for a Cup. If there was going to be a signing it would have happened by now. Gio is likely going to start the season without the extension and yes it will be a distraction but that is life. They are all professionals and the ability to analyze Gio play at the start of next season and post-injury will lead to the contract depending on the results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Hurdler may be the Captain if Gio isn't signed... We should not be surprised on the hold-out at this time. Given that the Gio camp is starting with such a huge number and given Gio's age I am not sure we should even expect a contract prior to the season starting at this point. Again Gio is under contract for all of next year. Again it is nothing personal but BT MUST do his due diligence for the club and that will mean assessing Gio post-injury on the Flames. For all we know a Brodie / Hamilton combo may surpass Gio on the top pairing. Now what do you do? Does anyone in their right mind sign a long-term contract for 7 million plus for a 2nd pairing D man? You have to steel your emotions in these situations. This decision will have a huge impact on the Flames long-term and potentially hinder the team 3 years out effecting the ability for the Flames to compete for a Cup. If there was going to be a signing it would have happened by now. Gio is likely going to start the season without the extension and yes it will be a distraction but that is life. They are all professionals and the ability to analyze Gio play at the start of next season and post-injury will lead to the contract depending on the results... Well considering BT said as soon as the season was over that Giordano was his priority I think you will be wrong with your assessment of the situation. I don't think BT will be stupid about the number but I also don't think he wants to destroy the goodwill built amongst this team coming off the success from the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbertaBoy12 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 If the pairings were Brodie-Hamilton Gio- Wideman next season would anyone be suprised? I really dont see Gio getting big money long term, anything north of 7m is not going to be good for us. His body of work is 2 seasons were he was injured, and hes on the wrong side of 30 for a big contract. Look at boston with the chara contract. Id like to see Gio signed to a 4 year cap friendly deal, even if its at 6.5m per. He deserves a raise but with his history and age I just dont know. I know duncan kieths deal was long term, but even his cap hit was 5.5 over 13 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 If the pairings were Brodie-Hamilton Gio- Wideman next season would anyone be suprised? I really dont see Gio getting big money long term, anything north of 7m is not going to be good for us. His body of work is 2 seasons were he was injured, and hes on the wrong side of 30 for a big contract. Look at boston with the chara contract. Id like to see Gio signed to a 4 year cap friendly deal, even if its at 6.5m per. He deserves a raise but with his history and age I just dont know. I know duncan kieths deal was long term, but even his cap hit was 5.5 over 13 years. What you want and what the environment is for salaries right now are two different things. Giordano is has become a top player within the league (you are correct in saying in the past 2 years) he has always been a good players for us. Is he a huge ticket draw for the league that fans in other cities come to see like a Crosby, Toews, Ovechkin etc. NO so I believe he falls in somewhere between 6M and 7.5M not 9M. Looking around teams are paying key players top of the scale dollar so Giordano should get 7.5M tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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