Las Vegas Expansion

[conundrumed]

Talks about Vegas expansion are upon us.

I think this is laughable. Stop staring at money long enough to stare at the game Bettman.

If this isn't the worst idea ever, it's right up there.

Why not focus on the Fla's and Arizona's and fix that 1st?

This is folly at it's finest.

[DL44]

This would be a gamble... but it will be a great one.

 

Vegas is the perfect and regular destination spot for a 24-72 hr trip... and to be able to tie that into a hockey game in the future will be awesome.

 

Why it will work:

- I think the potential corporate support in Vegas is beyond what any other potential city will ever be able to provide.

- They will probably get the most import fan support scooping up tickets than any other city

- First major pro team in the city.  Will have the opportunity to get first dibs to local allegiance. 

- Huge potential for cross-promotion with other special events

- Owners will be making money no matter what with the revenue they will generate from having a great new venue that size in Vegas.

 

Why it will may fail:

- Non-traditional market. Getting the Local individual support is the gamble.. Gamble, get it?

- BIG competition for the entertainment $. Celine Dion vs the NHL.

[The_People1]

The word "expansion" has never been used by Bettman, for good reason.  The new arena in Las Vegas will not be complete until 2016 so we likely won't see a team in Las Vegas until 2016/17 at the earliest, and more likely it will be 2017/18.  This means the NHL has a year or two to evaluate the longevity of teams like the Panthers and Coyotes in their current cities.  By not using the word "expansion", it keeps the door open for the NHL to relocate those teams to Las Vegas.

[CheersMan]

The word "expansion" has never been used by Bettman, for good reason.  The new arena in Las Vegas will not be complete until 2016 so we likely won't see a team in Las Vegas until 2016/17 at the earliest, and more likely it will be 2017/18.  This means the NHL has a year or two to evaluate the longevity of teams like the Panthers and Coyotes in their current cities.  By not using the word "expansion", it keeps the door open for the NHL to relocate those teams to Las Vegas.

The Jets paid 60M for relocation fee. Rumour has it expansion fee could be as high as 450M all of which would go directly into the existing owners pocket. It's not that difficult to figure out what the existing owners would prefer. Just think of the royalties Foley would make on his Brand alone. Most would want to come back with some kind of souvenir.

[The_People1]

This would be a gamble... but it will be a great one.

 

Vegas is the perfect and regular destination spot for a 24-72 hr trip... and to be able to tie that into a hockey game in the future will be awesome.

 

Why it will work:

- I think the potential corporate support in Vegas is beyond what any other potential city will ever be able to provide.

- They will probably get the most import fan support scooping up tickets than any other city

- First major pro team in the city.  Will have the opportunity to get first dibs to local allegiance. 

- Huge potential for cross-promotion with other special events

- Owners will be making money no matter what with the revenue they will generate from having a great new venue that size in Vegas.

 

Why it will may fail:

- Non-traditional market. Getting the Local individual support is the gamble.. Gamble, get it?

- BIG competition for the entertainment $. Celine Dion vs the NHL.

 

It's a very odd city where 1/3 of the working population works night shifts.  Plus, from reports, shifts across hotels are rather standard.  Something like, a shift change occurs city wide at 8pm... which means if games start at 7pm local time, then it's a game that cuts inbetween the hours of two large groups of the population.  If a game starts at 7pm but your shift starts at 8pm, then are you still going to go see the first period before work?  If the game starts at 7pm and you don't get off work until 8pm, then that means you can't really go to the game either.  That, and then the third group working the mornings shifts are probably sleeping early.

 

So that said, will the arena be filled with tourists only?  20,000 for 41 games + pre-season and playoffs.  Maaaaybe okay considering the amount of big sporting events held in Las Vegas like Boxing 10 times a year.  I don't know, there's tourists wanting to spend money there for sure... Plus, I imagine a lot of tickets will be bought by corporate sponsors even if no one ends up using those tickets.

[Zirakzigil]

Foley says he has the casinos support, which he needs. If he can generate 10,000ish season ticket sales then this will work out for the NHL. 

[CheersMan]

Foley's casino's are a license to print money. I doubt this hockey venture would be a money losing cause, but even if it did it's got good $u$tainable backing.

[Flyerfan52]

The Jets paid 60M for relocation fee. Rumour has it expansion fee could be as high as 450M all of which would go directly into the existing owners pocket. It's not that difficult to figure out what the existing owners would prefer. Just think of the royalties Foley would make on his Brand alone. Most would want to come back with some kind of souvenir.

Relocation fees are what the NHL says they are. If expansion fees are assumed to be 450 they can charge that. It's not like there's another source.

 

For that 450 & the cost of a team (Panthers valued @ 200, 'Yotes 225) the new owner gets a team rather then a ragtag collection of other team's cast-offs. Not long ago Moyes gave the Coyotes to the NHL rather then continue throwing money into a pit. So that Forbes worth needn't be the cost (100-150 for Panthers & already there are rumblings the new owners in Arizona want out).

 

A few years ago I read that the pre-game worth of a 2nd team in the GTA would be about 600 million. If an owner sees a LV team as viable, a drawing card for his/their real business (free ticket with every $500.00 lost @ roulette ) it's a write-off. If rated @ the value of the Kings (580) he's already darn near even.

[conundrumed]

There was a time when expansion/relocation meant bringing the entire hockey culture to a region, ie build rinks, establish a core hockey culture. For anyone that frequents hockey tourneys, NY, Boston, Philly, Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois, Missouri, California are incredibly frequent participants. Even Nashville sprouts up occasionally.

Florida and Arizona not so. That core has not been established and may never be.

So now, let's throw Vegas in the fold. Okay. The population of Vegas is what, maybe 650,000? It's in the middle of the desert. Will we establish a hockey identity in a small market in the middle of the desert? I'd guess no.

So the point must be tourist dollars, so now we want to be a tourist attraction?

Why are no other pro sports teams in Las Vegas?

Should I just assume they're not smart enough to see the casino/tourist dollars?

Bettman got his wish with a Phoenix team, next up, a Vegas team?

The game goes the way of lawyers and accountants, not what I want in my beloved sport.

That's why I think this has folly and greed written all over it. It's not about the game.

[DL44]

Why are no other pro sports teams in Las Vegas?

Should I just assume they're not smart enough to see the casino/tourist dollars?

That's an easy one... All major sports, including the NHL, had been worried about gambling and integrity of their sports and players/refs trying to effect the outcomes for personal gaines.

Basically the Internet has made gambling so accessible for everyone everywhere, it eliminates that as a reason to stay away from Vegas.

[conundrumed]

That's an easy one... All major sports, including the NHL, had been worried about gambling and integrity of their sports and players/refs trying to effect the outcomes for personal gaines.

Basically the Internet has made gambling so accessible for everyone everywhere, it eliminates that as a reason to stay away from Vegas.

So everyone is lining up for Vegas now?

[DirtyDeeds]

So everyone is lining up for Vegas now?

No they aren't, but gambling has deeper roots in other sports more so than they do in hockey.

 

Hockey is probably the best of the bunch if you are going to test the "gambling and sports team" in Las Vegas thinking.

[conundrumed]

So the only question left is whether we are going to inspire hockey in a small maket in the desert, or if we're just a tourist attraction?

A tourist attraction is simply a novelty.

What's the population of that other desert team, Phoenix, again? With all of those Canadian snowbird tourists in Arizona, you can't go wrong.

 

I'm quite surprised this has turned into a glorious opportunity for an influx of finances.

I view it as a good opportunity to look really stupid. Novelties wear off. Ownership may exude cash, but show me an owner happy to head up a mainly empty event...

Fights are huge in Vegas, so the fight crowd flocks there. I don't see hockey fans flocking to Vegas to watch a hockey game.

Call me jaded...maybe enough Scandinavians will visit and fill the rink continuously...

[DL44]

So everyone is lining up for Vegas now?

No one is "lining up". Simply exploring the possibility.

NBA is. They target smaller markets in general to secure local market share. As a business plan they go into markets where the other big 3 may not already be.

An NBA team in Vegas is a matter of time.. But not before Seatle get theirs back.

MLB would not touch the Vegas due to historical reasons..

And the NFL has no reason to with LA waiting.

[DL44]

So the only question left is whether we are going to inspire hockey in a small maket in the desert, or if we're just a tourist attraction?

A tourist attraction is simply a novelty.

What's the population of that other desert team, Phoenix, again? With all of those Canadian snowbird tourists in Arizona, you can't go wrong.

 

I'm quite surprised this has turned into a glorious opportunity for an influx of finances.

I view it as a good opportunity to look really stupid. Novelties wear off. Ownership may exude cash, but show me an owner happy to head up a mainly empty event...

Fights are huge in Vegas, so the fight crowd flocks there. I don't see hockey fans flocking to Vegas to watch a hockey game.

Call me jaded...maybe enough Scandinavians will visit and fill the rink continuously...

Well to be fair... Any business model that DEPENDS on tourist influx is dead on arrival and I dont think that's the angle they're taking. But Vegas should obviously be able to draw the most from tourists of any other city over the course of a season.

Difference between Pheonix and Vegas....

Competition from the other Big 3 for the sports $ from the locals. UNLV is basically it.

Pheonix has the Suns, Cardinals, Diamondbacks, as well as college.

- Corporate support

[conundrumed]

Well to be fair... Any business model that DEPENDS on tourist influx is dead on arrival and I dont think that's the angle they're taking.

So what angle are they taking, in a desert tourist town, population maybe 700,000?

[DL44]

So what angle are they taking, in a desert tourist town, population maybe 700,000?

http://www.tsn.ca/potential-owner-foley-las-vegas-nhl-franchise-won-t-rely-on-tourists-1.157585

A Vegas franchise will be a money maker for the owners.. That's virtually guaranteed.. But for it to sell out and make money solely from the hockey part of the product and be creditable in the eyes of NHL people fans and media - they NEED the local support.

[DL44]

So what angle are they taking, in a desert tourist town, population maybe 700,000?

Vancouver 610k

See how we are both being disingenuous.

Just watched Foley interviewed by Freidman... I'm 100% hoping this comes to fruition!

For those that missed it, he said the full interview will be aired online... I'm assuming sportsnet.ca...

Las Vegas Black Knights (if it was up to the owner)

[CheersMan]

LV Knights vs LA Kings

It's gonna happen.

[conundrumed]

Las Vegas Black Knights (if it was up to the owner)

 

I love a laugh, and I mean that...1st thing I thought was, "I'm Arthur, King of the Britons".

4 game losing streak, "tis but a scratch".

I think I can actually get behind this now lol.

[cross16]

I like the idea of going to Vegas but hate the idea of expansion as IMO the game right now is not good enough to warrant adding another team and watering it down and when you sees other teams struggling to me relocation makes way more sense. Yes there is more money in expansion but expansion also comes with a huge worry. Part of the reason the NHL collapses in the early 2000s was the expansion fees they got drove up player salaries because now suddenly teams had more money to spend and team that previously were budget teams could compete. Once that dried up the league was in a terrible financial state with out of control salaries but not the revenue stream couldn't support it. Yes you have the cap now but all I see that expansion fee doing is artificially driving up the salary cap so I think relocation is still a smarter way to go. Not to mention I think the problem with expansion is you drop a terrible team, in all likelihood, into a market that doesn't have a love for the game and are not going to develop it watching an inferior product. Put a team in there that has infrastructure and potential to better your chances of succeeding in that market. I think relocating the Panthers would be perfect because tha to a young tam building towards someone good and if hugely had a committed owner and more fans to gets 1 or 2 FAs they could be right there soon.

I like the potential publicity and notoriety the NHL could get by being the first and only sports team in Vegas but I agree it won't work unles they can get the public onside. Yes it would make for an attractive trip for many Canadians and a popular tourist spot but look at teams like Phoenix to show you cannot survive on tourists alone you need local support to have that consistent fan base and use thtourists as a top up.

[The_People1]

I like the potential publicity and notoriety the NHL could get by being the first and only sports team in Vegas but I agree it won't work unles they can get the public onside. Yes it would make for an attractive trip for many Canadians and a popular tourist spot but look at teams like Phoenix to show you cannot survive on tourists alone you need local support to have that consistent fan base and use thtourists as a top up.

Phoenix built their arena too far away from the center of human life. Las Vegas is building their arena on the the Strip. BIG difference because of location location and location. One has the arena inaccessible while the other has it right there in everyone's face.

If they can sellout the atrocity that is Criss Angel's Believe on a nightly basis to naive tourists, then an NHL game should be no problem.

[cross16]

Phoenix built their arena too far away from the center of human life. Las Vegas is building their arena on the the Strip. BIG difference because of location location and location. One has the arena inaccessible while the other has it right there in everyone's face.

If they can sellout the atrocity that is Criss Angel's Believe on a nightly basis to naive tourists, then an NHL game should be no problem.

Initially yes but overtime I think like most shows in Vegas interest will fade and tourists won't be enough. I get there is a big difference but I still don't think you can survive on tourists alone you need a loyal and local fan base that are willing to shell out every year for seasons.

[conundrumed]

Initially yes but overtime I think like most shows in Vegas interest will fade and tourists won't be enough. I get there is a big difference but I still don't think you can survive on tourists alone you need a loyal and local fan base that are willing to shell out every year for seasons.

Las Vegas is a gaudy adult playland.

The NHL is rife with players that grew up wanting to be just like their hockey-playing idols. The athletes themselves, individually, conduct themselves with more class and humility than all other pro sports combined. The media jumps on dirty hits and fights because there really isn't much else to complain about. Social stigma is over-the-top in the big 3 American sports. Many of these athletes are bordering contemptuous in their off-field attitudes, let them have Vegas, they were made for it.

The Vegas strip should be vilified, not glorified. Heck, I can watch poker stars on a sports channel.

The romanticizing it has gotten boring. With all the poker stars intensity, how about showing intensity in the people on borderline of collapsing to stress due to losing more than they imagined? That's a big part of your "sport", show us that side. Then deal with the homeless and poverty problems afflicting the region with all of your proceeds.

The strip exists because a lot of people lose a lot of money there. Let's romanticize the 0.1%...

 

So I think they should build the arena in the theatre district. Oh wait, there is no theatre district. There's just a strip of neon promoting gambling and lax prostitution laws and lax gun control laws. Culture is a non-existent word.

And if you make enough money, you can convince everyone that all of this is just amazing fun and something you wouldn't condone in your town, but you'll visit to condone it in theirs.

 

As I said off the hop, this is adult playland. Conversely, I'm proud to have narrowed it down to a one-sport fan because community and humility establishes hockey as a sport of respect and humility that has provided all of us with great childhood stories that we all grow up with and drives our love of the game.

That is a value to me that the Vegas strip can't buy.

For the <16yo crowd here, don't romanticize LV is all I can tell you. Save it for NY, Paris, Rome, Barcelona, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc etc. Real places, not facades built by greed and malice. Real places that build character, not exuberant life-likes to fool you. There's a massive difference.

[DirtyDeeds]

So now, let's throw Vegas in the fold. Okay. The population of Vegas is what, maybe 650,000? It's in the middle of the desert. Will we establish a hockey identity in a small market in the middle of the desert? I'd guess no.

 

The greater Las Vegas area has over 2 million population to draw from.

 

According to Elliott Freedman they did the studies and think 2.3-2.3 million is the most accurate figure. Apparently the present season ticket sales campaign will be the deciding factor on getting the go ahead.