Flames Defense

[MAC331]

I think they should put Jokipakka with Hamilton use this year to work in some of the younger defensemen like Wotherspoon and Kulak. Also they could go with one of Engelland or Nakladal not both.

[cross16]

 

I read the article, but another one said the Rags had until June 2018 to tender an offer, since he was drafted out of the USHL.  Not sure which is more credible.

 

You only get draft rights for 2 years so no they don't have his rights till June 2018. Only situation now where you hold the rights longer than that is if they go to college. 

[kehatch]

Here is an interesting visual tweeted by Kent Wilson.  

 

 

It really shows the problem a lot of us had with Russell.  He didn't stop the other team from entering the zone and he wasn't good at getting the puck out of his own zone.  Which means he spent a lot of time in his own zone improving his shot blocking totals.  

 

Some team is going to pay way to much money for Russell.

 

The article it was pulled from is here: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/measuring-performance-defencemen-neutral-zone/.

 

The chart used to isolate to the above picture is here: https://public.tableau.com/profile/sean.tierney#!/vizhome/NZScores/Dashboard1

[Redslinger]

 

Some team is going to pay way to much money for Russell.

 

 

You mean like Dallas at the trade deadline?

[travel_dude]

Here is an interesting visual tweeted by Kent Wilson.  

 

 

It really shows the problem a lot of us had with Russell.  He didn't stop the other team from entering the zone and he wasn't good at getting the puck out of his own zone.  Which means he spent a lot of time in his own zone improving his shot blocking totals.  

 

Some team is going to pay way to much money for Russell.

 

The article it was pulled from is here: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/measuring-performance-defencemen-neutral-zone/.

 

The chart used to isolate to the above picture is here: https://public.tableau.com/profile/sean.tierney#!/vizhome/NZScores/Dashboard1

 

What he was signed for in Calgary was what he was worth to us.  It made no sense for us to re-sign him for $4m or more.  At the start of the year, he was a league worst (IIRC) -17 and didn't exactly make Hamilton look any better.  You could possibly blame some of that on Hartley, as the strategies used last year had been exposed.  I tend to think he was just an average player that had better results in a season where we surprised the league.  

 

I think he will get a raise.  Dallas may re-sign him, but I don't think it will be more than $4m.  He wasn't the reason they lost.  He did seem to suffer the same way he did with the Flames; last line of defense with a bad goalie, use stretch passes to exit.  When he had room to skate, he used to be a strong puck carrier.  

[cross16]

Russell is going to be a very interesting case this offseason becuase it will be pretty clear whatever time signs him either doesnt' have analytics departement or doesn't put a lot of vaue in it becuase Russell's analytics are cringeworthy when you are talking about even 3 million long term let alone 4 or more.

 

I dont' think Dallas signs him personally, he wasn't very good for them and took a lot of heat Dallas Stars fan i've read. I get fans don't make the decision but I think you can get a general pulse from what they say. I actually wonder if Russell will get paid at all. Part of what we heard prior to the trade was Russell was a good defencemen and maybe getting him out of Hartley's system would help, well it didn't. so does that make a team pause and wonder if he is in fact worth a long term deal for decent money?

 

I think Russell might be this year's Franson. Expect a long term deal and have to settle for a 1 or 2 years

[travel_dude]

Russell is going to be a very interesting case this offseason becuase it will be pretty clear whatever time signs him either doesnt' have analytics departement or doesn't put a lot of vaue in it becuase Russell's analytics are cringeworthy when you are talking about even 3 million long term let alone 4 or more.

 

I dont' think Dallas signs him personally, he wasn't very good for them and took a lot of heat Dallas Stars fan i've read. I get fans don't make the decision but I think you can get a general pulse from what they say. I actually wonder if Russell will get paid at all. Part of what we heard prior to the trade was Russell was a good defencemen and maybe getting him out of Hartley's system would help, well it didn't. so does that make a team pause and wonder if he is in fact worth a long term deal for decent money?

 

I think Russell might be this year's Franson. Expect a long term deal and have to settle for a 1 or 2 years

 

You may be right.  He only had 11 games in the regular season with them, so they may believe he didn't have time to adapt.

[Flyerfan52]

Russell @ 2.6 was a good pickup for a playoff run. Dallas gave up decent parts they could afford to lose as they were determined to go deep.

But the cap rears it's head so if Russell expects a big raise the market will probably disappoint him (& his agent) because he's just a good depth defense that can play bigger minutes if/when needed but not 1 to be counted on to do that full-time.

[jjgallow]

 

Sooo...   No comments in here for over four months. 

 

Yeah, so ....this needs a bump.   That's all I'm going to say for the moment.

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sooo...   No comments in here for over four months. 

 

Yeah, so ....this needs a bump.   That's all I'm going to say for the moment.

Eliminate Grossman and Wideman would be my suggestion to BT.

[DirtyDeeds]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sooo...   No comments in here for over four months. 

 

Yeah, so ....this needs a bump.   That's all I'm going to say for the moment.

JJ the elbowing disturber.. yeah

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sooo...   No comments in here for over four months. 

 

Yeah, so ....this needs a bump.   That's all I'm going to say for the moment.

 

You like to set up traps, don't you.  

 

 

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You like to set up traps, don't you.  

 

 

I have no idea what you mean.....

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Eliminate Grossman and Wideman would be my suggestion to BT.

 

And Engelland?

[cross16]

JJ can never wait to tell you "I told you so"

 

personally i like where they flames defence is heading. They are playing much better in the neural zone and their own blue line by stopping rushes before they even get in the zone. Their play in their own zone it a bit better but communication is a bit of an issue there still but that comes with a new coach and new system. They were much better in this regard last night. Really outside of Widemans poor turnovers and Gio forgetting for a half second it was Mcdavid on the ice I liked how the d core played last night. 

[JTech780]

As per NHL.com SAT (Shot Attempts)% for our defense, zone starts in brackets:

 

Jokipakka    71.43 (72.73)

Hamilton     70.31 (56.25)

Engelland   61.36 (53.85)

Brodie        57.14  (52.94)

Wideman    54.00  (40.00)

Grossmann 47.06 (20.00)

Giordano     41.82 (40.00)

 

Engelland has played well and skates better than most give him credit for. I am a little surprised at what the stats say for Wideman and that he is getting the puck moving in the right direction in spite of the fact that he is starting in the defensive zone most of the time. This is a prime case where the eye test and the analytics don't tell the same story. Giordano needs to figure out the new system, but he did get off to a slow start last year as well, so maybe this is just a theme from him. Jokipakka looked great last night but you had better look great when you are starting in the offensive zone 73% of the time.

[jjgallow]

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

JJ can never wait to tell you "I told you so"

 

I'll have you know I've stayed clear of any such thing on the goaltending forum.  And all I've done on here is look for healthy banter and discussion...

 

13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

personally i like where they flames defence is heading. 

 

I've always been a big fan of Europe too.

[cross16]

Gio is most definitely off to a slow start again and given expectation he's been my most disappointing player through the two games  tough to be at your best as a core when one of your best is not as his best. Especially when he is playing the minutes he is. 

 

That being said it's also part of the reason in good wth the direction. He isn't going to play this poorly for long 

[MAC331]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

And Engelland?

What about him ?

[kehatch]

The dark horse for me is Jokipakka. Giordano-Brodie is a proven top pairing. I am fine with Kulak-Engelland. The real question is can Jokipakka-Hamilton be a solid pairing. I think so. It was good to finish last season and has looked good so far. 

 

The other question is depth. Wideman doesn't look like he has the legs for the NHL anymore. Grossman is clearly not a good option. Can Wotherspoon or one of the kids step up if we need them? 

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, kehatch said:

The dark horse for me is Jokipakka. Giordano-Brodie is a proven top pairing. I am fine with Kulak-Engelland. The real question is can Jokipakka-Hamilton be a solid pairing. I think so. It was good to finish last season and has looked good so far. 

 

The other question is depth. Wideman doesn't look like he has the legs for the NHL anymore. Grossman is clearly not a good option. Can Wotherspoon or one of the kids step up if we need them? 

I don't think there is anything lacking in Wotherspoon's play that couldn't be improved with NHL play and experience. I have little doubt Jokipakka is going to be a better than average defenseman for us, it's Hamilton I worry about. LOL not really but he can be much better.

[travel_dude]

14 hours ago, kehatch said:

The dark horse for me is Jokipakka. Giordano-Brodie is a proven top pairing. I am fine with Kulak-Engelland. The real question is can Jokipakka-Hamilton be a solid pairing. I think so. It was good to finish last season and has looked good so far. 

 

The other question is depth. Wideman doesn't look like he has the legs for the NHL anymore. Grossman is clearly not a good option. Can Wotherspoon or one of the kids step up if we need them? 

 

Call it 3rd game in 4 nights, but the top 5D last night included Kulak, Jokipakka and Hamilton.  For me, the 6th D is an area of concern.  Foot speed seems to have dropped off. Some questionable decision making.  That leaves a choice of Engelland, Wideman or Grossman.  It's not a question of the which one to choose as much as it is who will hurt you the least.  Without other options, Engelland is the only choice for the 6th D.  We don't even have the cap available to send down Grossman for Wotherspoon. 

[cross16]

 

Kulak played 13 mins last night. That is hardly top 5 D.he was fine but that's just it, he was fine but that's all you should expect from a 6th dman. 

 I wish people would get off Engellands back. He's been solid since signing here and is off to another good start this year. Other than getting trapped in that Canuck goal for way too long a shift the D last night was very good. 

[DirtyDeeds]

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Kulak played 13 mins last night. That is hardly top 5 D.he was fine but that's just it, he was fine but that's all you should expect from a 6th dman. 

 I wish people would get off Engellands back. He's been solid since signing here and is off to another good start this year. Other than getting trapped in that Canuck goal for way too long a shift the D last night was very good. 

I agree. He has not been that much of a liability on D. He does not have to be the puck carrier here, so does not need to be a world class skater. His skating is adequate for his role with the Flames.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 I wish people would get off Engellands back. He's been solid since signing here and is off to another good start this year. Other than getting trapped in that Canuck goal for way too long a shift the D last night was very good. 

 

I would agree that Engelland has not been the problem in these first three games.

 

However, just like people keep saying it's "too early" to sound the alarm, I think it's too early to annoint Engelland as any more than he was last season or the season before.

 

IMHO, he has essentially played sheltered minutes.   Our top four D have let us down so badly (specifically Wideman), that teams have not targetted Engelland's weaknesses.

 

Engelland, for the most part, has been playing teams that are Defending their leads.

 

These first 3 games have been encouraging, but it will take a lot more than that to justify him.   Even then,  "Playing as expected for his role" may not bee good enough if that role becomes extinct.  It's not so much about bashing Engelland, but there's a lot of Fantastic prospects out there who are not getting opportunities they should (hard to pick them out in Stockton, but that's another discussion).