The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

I agree with ABC923 that they should have given Calgarians more time to react to the plan. Even if they do not include a plebiscite, they should let people react within a reasonable timeframe. I understand that the deal will not change, but allowing people to vent might be helpful. I don't think that public engagement on this issue was well done at all. The process itself needs to be reconsidered.

 

I feel the legislative process is slow enough as is.  We cannot govern a civic society through plebiscite every time.  Just elect people who can make decisions for us and let them make decisions.

[The_Tribal Chief]

No but at the same time it shouldnt take 2 years to get things organized a year i could see it and then a extra year to build instead of 2 is what got me

[travel_dude]

3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I feel the legislative process is slow enough as is.  We cannot govern a civic society through plebiscite every time.  Just elect people who can make decisions for us and let them make decisions.

 

I am with you.  The Olympic vote was one thing.  Even that was absurd.  It should never have gotten to that.  After the Fed decided they would underfund it, the idea should have been dropped.  

[sak22]

8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I feel the legislative process is slow enough as is.  We cannot govern a civic society through plebiscite every time.  Just elect people who can make decisions for us and let them make decisions.

Exactly, we live with the majority of decisions made at all 3 levels of government.  I hate most decisions made.  There will be people who would hate this even if the city only invested 5%.  The city didn't plan on an entertainment district without an event centre, even when talks stalled this was the end goal an entertainment district is pointless if it would be dead 51 weeks of the year on Sunday through Thursday much like the entire DT currently is.  The optics are bad with how the city is going, but there needs to be some sort of pick up.  

[cross16]

On 7/25/2019 at 11:08 AM, The_People1 said:

 

I feel the legislative process is slow enough as is.  We cannot govern a civic society through plebiscite every time.  Just elect people who can make decisions for us and let them make decisions.

 

this is me too. There is significant public consultation during an election and at the end of the day it's the public who hires politicians to do a job so go do that job. Sending every major project to public consultation is IMO a way to skirt around making tough decision and I feel like that's exactly how this council has been operating for awhile. 

 

People should have a say, but don't bog it down for a month when the result is probably going to be the same anyway. I'm also not of the belief that more public consultation gives you a better or more correct decision anyway. 

[Cowtownguy]

On 7/25/2019 at 11:08 AM, The_People1 said:

 

I feel the legislative process is slow enough as is.  We cannot govern a civic society through plebiscite every time.  Just elect people who can make decisions for us and let them make decisions.

That is a straw man as nobody is suggesting as much. How about giving Calgarians 2 weeks of consultation for every 1/2 billion spent? If they want to change the toilet paper at city hall, go ahead and make that decision independently. No worries.

[The_Tribal Chief]

The Thing is no matter what People vote when people are elected they are never 100% Happy so weather you have a Good deal or not talking to the people isnt always the best

[Cowtownguy]

On 7/26/2019 at 12:05 PM, The_Snowbear said:

The Thing is no matter what People vote when people are elected they are never 100% Happy so weather you have a Good deal or not talking to the people isnt always the best

The city did extend the timeframe for Calgarians to respond to the deal until Monday. I think that was a wise decision because it gives any fence sitters time to read the details of the deal if they wish. I actually doubt that many more people will submit their ideas than were intending to, but it is important to allow that opportunity. I suspect that many Calgarians are more or less satisfied, if cautiously optimistic about this deal.

 

[DirtyDeeds]

On 7/25/2019 at 8:07 AM, The_Snowbear said:

Yeah but No Offense they Shouldnt be Announcing it imo untill the council has agreed cause imo if they voted it down after the announcement woudnt that be a Real sting in the Hash Rate

It was press who announced it first. The formal annoucement is only that the groups all have come to agreement and is acceptable

 

[Cowtownguy]

The city has now asked the Flames to extend discussions on the arena until into September. A poll was conducted on the effectiveness of council and support for the new arena. Not surprisingly, those with higher incomes are more likely to support the new deal whereas lower income folks are far less supportive. It is important to allow time to review and comment on this expensive project. A majority of Calgarians thought this deal was being rushed.

 

linky

[cross16]

I think the declining confidence in council and they desire to delay this deal go hand in hand. I think if this council wasn't a borderline disaster then the consultation period wouldn't be as much of an issue. 

 

Be interesting to see how CESC responds because a delay is not good for them as the deal looks worse and worse the more you look at it.

[Cowtownguy]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think the declining confidence in council and they desire to delay this deal go hand in hand. I think if this council wasn't a borderline disaster then the consultation period wouldn't be as much of an issue. 

 

Be interesting to see how CESC responds because a delay is not good for them as the deal looks worse and worse the more you look at it.

I am not as hard on council as many others are in this city. I think that they work pretty hard. Their back and forth on this looks really bad though. A week was too short, two months seems too long to me, so why not give people until Aug 15 or so? Calgarians deserve time to speak to the actual deal that was recently completed and released. 2-3 weeks seems sufficient to me given that this is an ongoing negotiation. To be clear, this deal is unlikely to change. It is Council's job to hear from the public even if they don't like what they hear. 

 

I agree that CESC will not appreciate the delay. I doubt the deal will look worse over time though. 

[redfire11]

Here's a chance for The City of Calgary to invest in its future by making a 50/50 deal with successful business people. You can guarantee that if it doesn't go through over half of the City Council will pull an AOC and look for ways to invest that newly minted 275m in (unused bridges to nowhere, outside art that requires a double hit of microdot to understand, libraries that make you feel like your in a fantasy book, painting all the streets to show how culturally diverse we are). Let's face it that 275m will be spent without our input so for me I vote to have it invested in a new arena where we as Calgarian's will get at least a return on our investment.

[travel_dude]

45 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think the declining confidence in council and they desire to delay this deal go hand in hand. I think if this council wasn't a borderline disaster then the consultation period wouldn't be as much of an issue. 

 

Be interesting to see how CESC responds because a delay is not good for them as the deal looks worse and worse the more you look at it.

Too bad they can't even seem to make a decision.  The longer this goes, the less likely the support will be there in council.

There is no way to spin this deal; it takes money away from other areas and gives the city a new arena with a tenant for 35 years.

The alternative may be no tenant and no new arena for any purposes.

I'm not sure that any common ground will be found again.

But that's just me.

Plenty of waste in city budgets.

Any arena deal with any benefit to the city is going to cost the city.

[cross16]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

I am not as hard on council as many others are in this city. I think that they work pretty hard. Their back and forth on this looks really bad though. A week was too short, two months seems too long to me, so why not give people until Aug 15 or so? Calgarians deserve time to speak to the actual deal that was recently completed and released. 2-3 weeks seems sufficient to me given that this is an ongoing negotiation. To be clear, this deal is unlikely to change. It is Council's job to hear from the public even if they don't like what they hear. 

 

I agree that CESC will not appreciate the delay. I doubt the deal will look worse over time though. 

 

I would only question the work ethic of a few, but I'm sure they all put in the time I just don't think they are effective at all. They are starting to drop of the ball on just about every major project and most of the time the issues are so blatant it's really hard to see why they are struggling (Green Line for example). 

 

The deal may not change but I do think the potential is there for the public to force the hand of some Councillors. As i said before I don't think this is a good deal for Calgary (and honestly it gets worse the more you look at it) but I also don't think it's a horrible deal and it's probably the best deal they are going to get. But I'm a person that wants an arena so i'm ok settling for a bad deal but the more this drags on the more I could see many people not being ok with settling for a bad deal.  

 

 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I would only question the work ethic of a few, but I'm sure they all put in the time I just don't think they are effective at all. They are starting to drop of the ball on just about every major project and most of the time the issues are so blatant it's really hard to see why they are struggling (Green Line for example). 

 

The deal may not change but I do think the potential is there for the public to force the hand of some Councillors. As i said before I don't think this is a good deal for Calgary (and honestly it gets worse the more you look at it) but I also don't think it's a horrible deal and it's probably the best deal they are going to get. But I'm a person that wants an arena so i'm ok settling for a bad deal but the more this drags on the more I could see many people not being ok with settling for a bad deal.  

 

 

 

That's the problem isn't it.  The longer it drags on, the less likely it will come in on budget.

Pushing it out by another year pushes the cost up.

Depending on the economy, it could also cost a ton more later.

 

 

[The_Tribal Chief]

I think if this lingers till September then the deal wont happen

[phoenix66]

I see it this way. The request for more time is nothing more than self serving campaigning for the next election

 

The city was polled , more than once over the last 5 years or so..majority consensus , in simple terms was " yes we need /want a new arena but don't raise my taxes to do it "

 

Council acted on this , gave a list of parameters to the negotiation team to basically say , meet these condition, or don't come back

 

A negotiated agreement was reached , meeting the conditions ..the only question now is to vote and say yay or nay 

 

What will a wait do?  The only sticker here is the fact the optics severely suck. Only this council would announce a likely $550M arena on the same day as $60M in budget cuts 

Those adamantly opposed and demanding more time ..ironically are the same ones rumored to be likely mounting a Mayor campaign in 2 years

Jeremy Farkas gets to stand up in 2 years and say "look..I stood up for spending when nobody else did " ..already knowing it's going to pass with or without him.. I like Farkas, but this is self serving political posturing 

 

A delay also only serves to hope to announce it when people aren't already ticked off about the other money you're spending ..where was this outcry on the library.. the ridiculous public art ..etc ?..

 

Bottom line , this is and always will be a polarizing topic .. consultation is what got it to this point .. the deal isn't going to change ..the possibility of tweaking this or that does not exist .. a councillor should already know what parameters your people require to approve or accept (and for bonus points you fought for these when you instructed the negotiations team)

A day, a week, a year is useless except for personal political posturing.. just do it and vote the way you believe you should 

 

[phoenix66]

14 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

That's the problem isn't it.  The longer it drags on, the less likely it will come in on budget.

Pushing it out by another year pushes the cost up.

Depending on the economy, it could also cost a ton more later.

 

 

I would argue that if it's defeated today.. that's it , game over .it becomes not a question of if we need to buy a Houston jersey, but when 

[The_Tribal Chief]

The Problem is Was the Same problem in 2017 They are following to much what the People say and unfortunatly Alot want a Arena but Expect The Flames to pay 550mill to cover all of it and that isnt happening in this stratusphere

[phoenix66]

1 minute ago, The_Snowbear said:

The Problem is Was the Same problem in 2017 They are following to much what the People say and unfortunatly Alot want a Arena but Expect The Flames to pay 550mill to cover all of it and that isnt happening in this stratusphere

Exactly....  To those people  I would say the following..

Ok ..flames pay 100% for the building..the only return to the city is property taxes (they already pay business taxes so that point is moot )

- no income from naming rights 

- no ongoing revenue from event sales 

- if they paid 100% they'd put it where they want it , so kiss your vitalization of Vic Park goodbye

- city and stampede would have to pay the flames to use it during stampede

- if the flames put it somewhere else , then you likely have to keep the Saddledome, so now you have all the expenses of running that on the city books .. not to mention big events will always choose the new building over the dome so don't even think about competing for events and expecting revenue from that 

 

Uneducated comments and arguments like that I've been seeing on social media this last week has me really struggling not to post rants in their comments 

 

Even people going off about the first rights to certain lots near the dome are uneducated.. so what..they merely get first right of refusal..this means they either buy it..or if another potential buyer steps up then they get the option to buy it first..big deal..either way it still gets sold 

[The_Tribal Chief]

Well That and Alot of people Forget Yes there owners but at the same time they arn't that rich they can afford to do it all them self...

Now Another Thing that People in Calgary arnt looking at is first of all that If The City Goes with the People and this Falls Through Then people Really Really need to sit on there high Horses and Ask Them self Do they want to lose The 2 Major Sports teams in this City Cause If the flames Leave i Guarantee you This for a Fact The Stamps Will Fold they wont even Try talking to the City

[The_Tribal Chief]

And Yes the flames can deal with the Old arena for how Long  no body Know But you know Eventually the Stampeder's are gonna be looking for a Stadium Sooner rather then later

[The_People1]

Less than 5,000 Calgarians have voiced their opinion in the past few days... and from what we know, 47% is Yes, 47% is No, and the rest are in the middle.

 

Do not let this stat fool you.  Most people who feel this is not in their best interest are more motivated to voice their concerns than the 99% of Calgarians who are okay with the deal or don't care enough.  The "No" group is expected to speak the loudest.  Yet, less than 2,500 "No' voiced their opinion in a city of a million plus.

 

It's not a 50/50 split as portrayed.

 

Stop this politics of pleasing every single last person, every single minority class, and every single underprivileged person, every single indigenous group, etc.  It won't happen.  Democracy is not about 100%.  It's about 51%.

[The_Tribal Chief]

Sorry To be blunt but it was Farkas that Started all this if it hadnt been for him this deal would be signed sealed and delivered