The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[Cowtownguy]

I am not sure that city council is to blame for Calgarians rejecting the Olympic bid. The only error that they made was to not getting the details of the bid to the public early enough. That was, in part, because the negotiations with other levels of government took so long. I would argue that this was because the Olympic games have been such a debacle in so many cities. Risking so much money when the city is struggling right now makes taking the financial risk less attractive. I don't think that the local media did a good job on this either.

 

This vote does not bode well for the Flames. If they hold another plebiscite on a new arena deal, I suspect that the results will look very much the same. This is why I said long ago that CalgaryNext was put to the public at the absolute worst time possible. 

[The_People1]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Agreed. I'm pretty much full on anti-IOC, but that doesn't mean voting yes would have made me rant. The world is taking a hard right since the Arab Spring. The ripples are everywhere.

The left is falling across Canada as it has in the US. It's a little intimidating, but seeing massive deficits on top of massive deficits is even scarier yet from the baby boomers leaving back-breaking debt for their children. We haven't learned a thing.

The current Feds won't be in power when the Olys take place.

One of the saddest parts is our Govt will piss away 10bil on diabolical nonsense regardless.

The very saddest part is young voters have shown what they want, and our politicians have fallen flat on their faces. Every time I hear JT say, "I speak for all Canadians" I feel ill. Nothing worse than a trust fund entitled brat of a "leader" who has no idea what a hard-working Cdn looks like. But he loves to spend our money.

Trust is fully eroded and we fall further.

But now I'm ranting, but not against yes or no. Next time, use business people to argue the case, not politicians living the arrogant dream of entitlement.

 

 

Your take on the Arab Spring and Left falling out of favour is completely not accurate but I digress.

 

Anti-IOC, yes.  Olympics used to be about "best amateur on amateur" but now it's "best professional on professional" (except for figure skating for some reason).

 

Anyways, big money has gotten involved and that's ruined the Olympic spirit.  Calgary 88 worked because there wasn't big money involved yet.  It's not expensive to put on the events.  

 

Ice hockey, do it in Winsport.  Skiing, just section of parts of Lake Louise.  C.O.P., can still work.  McMahon for the ceremonies, still functional.

 

But nooo, the lights! The sparkles!  Billion dollar arenas, billion dollar convention centers, etc etc.

[Cowtownguy]

5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Your take on the Arab Spring and Left falling out of favour is completely not accurate but I digress.

 

Anti-IOC, yes.  Olympics used to be about "best amateur on amateur" but now it's "best professional on professional" (except for figure skating for some reason).

 

Anyways, big money has gotten involved and that's ruined the Olympic spirit.  Calgary 88 worked because there wasn't big money involved yet.  It's not expensive to put on the events.  

 

Ice hockey, do it in Winsport.  Skiing, just section of parts of Lake Louise.  C.O.P., can still work.  McMahon for the ceremonies, still functional.

 

But nooo, the lights! The sparkles!  Billion dollar arenas, billion dollar convention centers, etc etc.

I agree with you on big money. It ruined the Olympic games IMO. Ship out and hide the homeless, and guard against any copyright infringement. In Vancouver, special legislation was created so that police could enter privately owned homes and other private property (i.e. vehicles) and seize signs that were deemed anti-Olympics. You could also get fined for anti-Olympic signs. Basically, residents had to pay for the games and not complain about it. To be clear, I am referring to the Vancouver games, not the Sochi games.

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Your take on the Arab Spring and Left falling out of favour is completely not accurate but I digress.

Looks like it worked perfectly to be honest.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Looks like it worked perfectly to be honest.

 

Bro, you are on level 0 of woke.

 

Nenshi won his first term on anti-establishment sentiment.  Notley, same thing.  Trump, ditto.  But Nenshi has gone senile with age.  Or the ego has gotten to him and he's lost touch with the common folk.

 

Anti-establishment is not hard right nor hard left.  The first time people chanted "CNN sucks" was Bernie supporters.

 

Anti-IOC is same thing.  Who in Calgary wants to see their tax dollars fatten the wallets of establishment politicians? ...at a time when so many people are struggling financially.  This is not a partisan issue.  

 

And the Arab Spring, come on,

 

[conundrumed]

I mean it looks like it worked perfectly.

You've been baited. Be careful what you eat.

There are good fats and bad fats.

Information comes at the cost of those providing it and the ability of individuals to absorb it.

And a group, however big or small, can influence it.

So maybe let everyone know that off the hop, before the I'm right/you're wrong starts.

 

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I mean it looks like it worked perfectly.

You've been baited. Be careful what you eat.

There are good fats and bad fats.

Information comes at the cost of those providing it and the ability of individuals to absorb it.

And a group, however big or small, can influence it.

So maybe let everyone know that off the hop, before the I'm right/you're wrong starts.

 

 

If mainstream media says we made the wrong choice,  voter shaming us, then that's all the proof we need to know we made the right one.

[MAC331]

11 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

If mainstream media says we made the wrong choice,  voter shaming us, then that's all the proof we need to know we made the right one.

I fear for Alberta and not just Calgary with respect to any further developments including a new Arena. Oil has always made this province work and it is being mothballed by outside and internal national interests. First things first and that is getting rid of this NDP Government. Tough times are ahead.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I fear for Alberta and not just Calgary with respect to any further developments including a new Arena. Oil has always made this province work and it is being mothballed by outside and internal national interests. First things first and that is getting rid of this NDP Government. Tough times are ahead.

 

I never thought I'd ever say this but Alberta probably benefits the most from Separatism.  No more equalization payments.

 

Another alternative is to become the 51st of the US instantly eliminating exchange rate hurdles and our product is just US grade.  No more of this Western Select pricing.  Also, instant access to world markets piggy backing on US markets.  Pipelines to both coasts are already there.

 

US debt per capita is very close to Canadian debt per capita so that's a push.  We get US army protection.  And maybe more than anything, we give BC and Ottawa the middle finger.

 

If they come kill me after I post this, then I want everybody to know I'm very happy in life right now.  No depression at all.  I don't work out so I won't drop dumbbells on my neck.  I don't own guns so I won't shoot myself in the back of the head twice like they may report on the news.  Thanks.

[Cowtownguy]

On 2018-11-16 at 9:22 AM, MAC331 said:

I fear for Alberta and not just Calgary with respect to any further developments including a new Arena. Oil has always made this province work and it is being mothballed by outside and internal national interests. First things first and that is getting rid of this NDP Government. Tough times are ahead.

That is about as sensical as suggesting that we attack Iraq because Osama bin Laden is being protected by the Taliban in Afghanistan. The provincial NDP government is pro pipeline and they always have been. When Notley introduced the carbon tax, you might recall that she had several senior corporate figures behind her from the oil industry. Notley's government is not anti-production, they just demand that the spoils of production are shared more equally throughout the province. Tough times are ahead, but it is not because of the NDP. Trudeau, however, is not exactly concerned about Alberta.

 

Calgarians were not willing to risk hosting the Olympics. There are often problems with cost overruns and the IOC has internal corruption troubles. All of the cheating on the part of athletes (blood doping, steroids etc.) doesn't help. The provincial NDP offered $700 million if we wanted to host the games. And if it comes to a plebiscite on a new arena (which kind of already happened when Nenshi, again, a Liberal, was re-elected), I suspect that people might vote the same way. But yeah, NDP = bad. "Lock her up!" "Drill baby drill!" MAGA. 

[MAC331]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

That is about as sensical as suggesting that we attack Iraq because Osama bin Laden is being protected by the Taliban in Afghanistan. The provincial NDP government is pro pipeline and they always have been. When Notley introduced the carbon tax, you might recall that she had several senior corporate figures behind her from the oil industry. Notley's government is not anti-production, they just demand that the spoils of production are shared more equally throughout the province. Tough times are ahead, but it is not because of the NDP. Trudeau, however, is not exactly concerned about Alberta.

 

Calgarians were not willing to risk hosting the Olympics. There are often problems with cost overruns and the IOC has internal corruption troubles. All of the cheating on the part of athletes (blood doping, steroids etc.) doesn't help. The provincial NDP offered $700 million if we wanted to host the games. And if it comes to a plebiscite on a new arena (which kind of already happened when Nenshi, again, a Liberal, was re-elected), I suspect that people might vote the same way. But yeah, NDP = bad. "Lock her up!" "Drill baby drill!" MAGA. 

Apparently you don't know or understand what happens to investment capital when a Socialist government comes into play, it leaves.

[stubblejumper1]

1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Apparently you don't know or understand what happens to investment capital when a Socialist government comes into play, it leaves.

 

Capital also flees when commodity prices drop below the cost of producing said commodities.  

 

What is your solution to Alberta's economic problems?  Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the judge in Montana who put Keystone XL on hold?  Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the provincial and civic governments in BC that are fighting Trans-Mountain?   Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the judge who put the Trans-Mountain pipeline on hold?  Should the people of Alberta (only ~10% of the Canadian population) somehow replace the federal government?  Should the people of Alberta somehow override the National Energy Board's oversight of interprovincial and international pipelines?

 

Unfortunately, replacing the NDP provincially will do little to increase oil and gas investment in Canada.  The government of Alberta has little say in the building of pipelines in BC or the USA and getting rid of the provincial carbon tax will simply result in Albertans paying a federal carbon tax.

 

We should probably stick to sports on this site. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

47 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

 

Capital also flees when commodity prices drop below the cost of producing said commodities.  

 

What is your solution to Alberta's economic problems?  Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the judge in Montana who put Keystone XL on hold?  Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the provincial and civic governments in BC that are fighting Trans-Mountain?   Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the judge who put the Trans-Mountain pipeline on hold?  Should the people of Alberta (only ~10% of the Canadian population) somehow replace the federal government?  Should the people of Alberta somehow override the National Energy Board's oversight of interprovincial and international pipelines?

 

Unfortunately, replacing the NDP provincially will do little to increase oil and gas investment in Canada.  The government of Alberta has little say in the building of pipelines in BC or the USA and getting rid of the provincial carbon tax will simply result in Albertans paying a federal carbon tax.

 

We should probably stick to sports on this site. 

 

 

 

 

For those that want to talk politics, the Random Thoughts thread is a place that could use that discussion.

Beware of the Peeps though...   

[Cowtownguy]

46 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

For those that want to talk politics, the Random Thoughts thread is a place that could use that discussion.

Beware of the Peeps though...   

Apologies as I contributed to the drift.

[MAC331]

17 hours ago, stubblejumper1 said:

 

Capital also flees when commodity prices drop below the cost of producing said commodities.  

 

What is your solution to Alberta's economic problems?  Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the judge in Montana who put Keystone XL on hold?  Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the provincial and civic governments in BC that are fighting Trans-Mountain?   Should the people of Alberta somehow replace the judge who put the Trans-Mountain pipeline on hold?  Should the people of Alberta (only ~10% of the Canadian population) somehow replace the federal government?  Should the people of Alberta somehow override the National Energy Board's oversight of interprovincial and international pipelines?

 

Unfortunately, replacing the NDP provincially will do little to increase oil and gas investment in Canada.  The government of Alberta has little say in the building of pipelines in BC or the USA and getting rid of the provincial carbon tax will simply result in Albertans paying a federal carbon tax.

 

We should probably stick to sports on this site. 

 

 

You are right we should stick to sports and take this back to the Arena discussion.

[cccsberg]

On 2018-11-16 at 10:28 AM, The_People1 said:

 

I never thought I'd ever say this but Alberta probably benefits the most from Separatism.  No more equalization payments.

 

Another alternative is to become the 51st of the US instantly eliminating exchange rate hurdles and our product is just US grade.  No more of this Western Select pricing.  Also, instant access to world markets piggy backing on US markets.  Pipelines to both coasts are already there.

 

US debt per capita is very close to Canadian debt per capita so that's a push.  We get US army protection.  And maybe more than anything, we give BC and Ottawa the middle finger.

 

If they come kill me after I post this, then I want everybody to know I'm very happy in life right now.  No depression at all.  I don't work out so I won't drop dumbbells on my neck.  I don't own guns so I won't shoot myself in the back of the head twice like they may report on the news.  Thanks.

Good one.  Unfortunately, the US is swirling down the toilet pretty fast and even the Trump “revolution” is straining to turn the tides.   Not as desirable as it once was....  but, nice thinking outside the box....  not sure if that impacts the Olympics bid though.  

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Good one.  Unfortunately, the US is swirling down the toilet pretty fast and even the Trump “revolution” is straining to turn the tides.   Not as desirable as it once was....  but, nice thinking outside the box....  not sure if that impacts the Olympics bid though.  

 

We need to melt the polar ice caps so we can build a pipeline to the North coast.  Screw BC and Quebec.

[conundrumed]

National plebiscites. "we've taken it out of your hands".

Few are pretending to speak for many.

End it.

[The_People1]

5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

National plebiscites. "we've taken it out of your hands".

Few are pretending to speak for many.

End it.

 

And Nenshi has the nerves to ask demand much of the $2-billion from the Feds and Province.  That's just comedy hour.

[jjgallow]

On 11/18/2018 at 0:22 PM, MAC331 said:

You are right we should stick to sports and take this back to the Arena discussion.

 

On that note,   

 

Why haven't we just built a refinery?   Just wondering how long we're going to rest our hopes on the rest of the world looking out for our best interests?

 

I feel like this has been the slowest-motion and most predictable disaster ever.   The whole concept on hanging the hopes of our economy on international cooperation over a hot topic.

 

Sell oil cheap, the world will buy it cheap and isn't about to hold our hands out of it.

 

Sell gasoline and by-products cheap, locally, and the economy will come to us.

 

Or put this way, we have one of the most valuable if not the most valuable economic resources in the world.   In one of the wealthiest and most capable and educated and developed places in the world.  Any particular reason we're constantly falling on our faces managing it?

[Cowtownguy]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

On that note,   

 

Why haven't we just built a refinery?   Just wondering how long we're going to rest our hopes on the rest of the world looking out for our best interests?

 

I feel like this has been the slowest-motion and most predictable disaster ever.   The whole concept on hanging the hopes of our economy on international cooperation over a hot topic.

 

Sell oil cheap, the world will buy it cheap and isn't about to hold our hands out of it.

 

Sell gasoline and by-products cheap, locally, and the economy will come to us.

 

Or put this way, we have one of the most valuable if not the most valuable economic resources in the world.   In one of the wealthiest and most capable and educated and developed places in the world.  Any particular reason we're constantly falling on our faces managing it?

I am interested in the responses to your questions. My understanding is that gasoline refineries are too capital intensive to be viable. Not sure how that works.

[stubblejumper1]

5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

On that note,   

 

Why haven't we just built a refinery?   Just wondering how long we're going to rest our hopes on the rest of the world looking out for our best interests?

 

I feel like this has been the slowest-motion and most predictable disaster ever.   The whole concept on hanging the hopes of our economy on international cooperation over a hot topic.

 

Sell oil cheap, the world will buy it cheap and isn't about to hold our hands out of it.

 

Sell gasoline and by-products cheap, locally, and the economy will come to us.

 

Or put this way, we have one of the most valuable if not the most valuable economic resources in the world.   In one of the wealthiest and most capable and educated and developed places in the world.  Any particular reason we're constantly falling on our faces managing it?

 

There is an upgrader (a heavy oil refinery) currently under construction in Redwater Alberta.  It is about $4 billion over budget and behind schedule.  It has become a boondoggle for the tax payer because the government of Alberta is an owner in the facility.  

 

One of the issues with building refineries is nobody wants one in their backyard. Companies will run into landowners and environmental groups who will delay approval and construction, which will drive up the cost. 

 

I agree that the resource is being mismanaged:

 

The government has lost control of the approval process for oil and gas infrastructure.  The courts and special interest groups now control the process.  

 

Industry has made a lot of bad decisions/investments and now wants the government to fix the problem. Many of the seniorleaders in the industry have not adapted to the changes in our society over the past twenty years.  They are stuck in the 80s/90s.  

 

How do we get past this?  I wish I had a solution.  

 

 

[jjgallow]

5 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

 

There is an upgrader (a heavy oil refinery) currently under construction in Redwater Alberta.  It is about $4 billion over budget and behind schedule.  It has become a boondoggle for the tax payer because the government of Alberta is an owner in the facility.  

 

One of the issues with building refineries is nobody wants one in their backyard. Companies will run into landowners and environmental groups who will delay approval and construction, which will drive up the cost. 

 

I agree that the resource is being mismanaged:

 

The government has lost control.  The courts and special interest groups now control the process.  

 

Industry has made a lot of bad decisions/investments and now wants the government to fix the problem.  

 

How do we get past this?  I wish I had a solution.  

 

 

 

 

 

Sturgeon was a good start but too small and poorly managed.   

 

How much would it cost?

 

$10-$15 billion probably, to shore up the price gap.

 

Or, translated into the amount of money the province is losing right now per day:   6 months of losses at our current rate ($80 million per day)

 

Let the government run or oversee construction, costs will double, and you're looking at the equivalent of 12 months.

 

So say the refinery has a 50 year lifespan, and it saves you that much each year.   The cost of the refinery is basically one of those 50 years.  If poorly managed.

 

I know the two arguements against it are:

 

1.   Cheaper to do in China or India  (but that gap is narrowing and highly unlikely to hold for the next 50 years)

          *if we refined it here, we would also create additional economies. So even if we don't save the full $80 million a day, we're also stimulating diversification in our revenues

 

2.   Environment  (sturgeon is the most environmentally friendly thing that's ever happened to refineries)

[stubblejumper1]

20 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

 

Sturgeon was a good start but too small and poorly managed.   

 

How much would it cost?

 

$10-$15 billion probably, to shore up the gap.

 

Or, translated into the amount of money the province is losing right now per day:   6 months of losses at our current rate ($80 million per day)

 

Let the government run or oversee construction, costs will double, and you're looking at the equivalent of 12 months.

 

So say the refinery has a 50 year lifespan, and it saves you that much each year.   The cost of the refinery is basically one of those 50 years.  If poorly managed.

 

I know the two arguements against it are:

 

1.   Cheaper to do in China or India  (but that gap is narrowing and highly unlikely to hold for the next 50 years)

          *if we refined it here, we would also create additional economies. So even if we don't save the full $80 million a day, we're also stimulating diversification in our revenues

 

2.   Environment  (sturgeon is the most environmentally friendly thing that's ever happened to refineries)

 

I think those are fair comments.  However:

 

- We still have to get the refined products to market.  Without pipelines we will have trouble selling products outside of Alberta. Gasoline pipelines won't get approved any quicker than heavy oil pipelines.  

 

- I think the economics are over simplified.  Companies would be banging the door down to invest in Alberta if they could payout multi-billion dollar projects in one year.  There are operating costs (including labour and maintenance), taxes, interest on loans, marketing and transportation costs, etc.

 

- The Sturgeon refinery will be very efficient and have a low environmental impact compared to other refineries that were buil 40+ years ago.  The oil and gas industry does a poor job of selling this type of improvement.  The environmental groups always seem to win the PR battles. 

[The_People1]

How much carbon emissions will a $15-billion refinery produce?