The Official Calgary Flames "New Arena" thread

[cross16]

10 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya, I believe the comments about becoming a Have Not team was slight of hand because the Canadian dollar was so slow against the USD last year.  They make sales in CAD and then pay salaries in USD.  That's got to hurt.

 

That said, the exchange rate is back to $0.80.  it's decent.  It's where it should have always been.  Not par and not $0.69.  

 

That's fair.

 

I guess to make my point more clear is I don't think the Flames have the capability of being a top 10 revenue team unless the dollar is artificially high like it was when it was 90 cents or higher. With a normal dollar I think the Flames would hover just outside the top 10 even with a new building and obviously lower if the dollar was lower.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

That's fair.

 

I guess to make my point more clear is I don't think the Flames have the capability of being a top 10 revenue team unless the dollar is artificially high like it was when it was 90 cents or higher. With a normal dollar I think the Flames would hover just outside the top 10 even with a new building and obviously lower if the dollar was lower.

 

Totals.  

 

Not to say we don't need a new arena. We do. Just that the lack of mention about the exchange rate felt the entire point King tried to make about net profits was dishonest to me.

[cross16]

2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Totals.  

 

Not to say we don't need a new arena. We do. Just that the lack of mention about the exchange rate felt the entire point King tried to make about net profits was dishonest to me.

 

Well said and I fully agree. 

[cccsberg]

22 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

No, the point is those 2 costs include different things. 

 

My point is if you are trying to argue total cost and saying its 890 million vs 555 mill and decide which is better that isn't accurate. I think you need to take a more holistic view because costs are not the same for every project. 

In the overall discussion many comments come up that Calgary Next is $1.2-$1.8B versus just $550mm for Victoria Park.  My only point, which seems to agree mostly with yours(?), is that the two are not the same thing.  Not only does the first also include a much-needed Stadium and Field house, but the "other" factors like transportation and infrastructure, etc are not treated the same for both.  To me, when you strip down each proposal to just looking at the arena portion, the numbers are fairly close.  If this is in fact so,  then the discussion should really be about the other stuff, i.e. the stadium, field house, the clean-up, the district development and how the city gets approvals for needed infrastructure projects.  

 

Certainly, if you price things out piecemeal a smaller project may look cheaper and more amenable, but in the end be more costly.  Highway upgrades are an example of this which happens all the time.  If you don't have the money for a bigger project, or the vision that holds up the greater public benefit of a grand project, for actually a very small individual contribution, then smaller normally wins.  To me the CalgaryNext proposal was such a long-term vision that benefitted both the CSEC teams but also the community as a whole and the whole West Village district.  

[JTech780]

So Eric Francis (groan) put out an article today, where he had quotes from Bettman (groan) saying something to the effect of "if you don't want the Flames to move then make your voice heard at the polls." Basically vote out Nenshi and the Flames will stay in Calgary. He also threw in a "I don't get involved in politics.". 

 

Is he trying to get Nenshi re-elected because I am getting tired of Bettman's and King's rhetoric of we can only build an arena if we have 50% or more public funding. At this point it seems like they are digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole in the PR battle, that pretty soon people are just going to stop caring. Having Francis be their mouthpiece in the media isn't working too well for them either.

 

I have been a life long Flames fan and I can't imagine cheering for any team other than the Calgary Flames, but I am getting tired of King's threats and am almost to the point of if you are going to keep saying that you are going to move the team, well just move the team then.

[rickross]

27 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

So Eric Francis (groan) put out an article today, where he had quotes from Bettman (groan) saying something to the effect of "if you don't want the Flames to move then make your voice heard at the polls." Basically vote out Nenshi and the Flames will stay in Calgary. He also threw in a "I don't get involved in politics.". 

 

Is he trying to get Nenshi re-elected because I am getting tired of Bettman's and King's rhetoric of we can only build an arena if we have 50% or more public funding. At this point it seems like they are digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole in the PR battle, that pretty soon people are just going to stop caring. Having Francis be their mouthpiece in the media isn't working too well for them either.

 

I have been a life long Flames fan and I can't imagine cheering for any team other than the Calgary Flames, but I am getting tired of King's threats and am almost to the point of if you are going to keep saying that you are going to move the team, well just move the team then.

My sentiments exactly, just read that article. Eric Francis. Sure it's his job to report on these things but he comes off as nothing more than a mouth piece for CSEC looking to persuade the public and voters right now. I can't recall the last time the NHL ("Bobble head" Bettman) publicly called out public servants by name in an attempt to interfere with a city's civic election process. It's becoming a sad attempt at extorting Nenshi and his council at this point. If Bettman is all of a sudden so vested in the city of Calgary and its citizens why not help cover some of the costs himself? The schmuck isn't a Calgarian, he's only interested in profiting off our city. As much as I love the Flames as a hockey team I'm beginning to dislike this group of owners. All this meddling in the democratic process for personal gain is what's going to run them out of the city not the lack of negotiations on the cities part. 

[cross16]

2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

In the overall discussion many comments come up that Calgary Next is $1.2-$1.8B versus just $550mm for Victoria Park.  My only point, which seems to agree mostly with yours(?), is that the two are not the same thing.  Not only does the first also include a much-needed Stadium and Field house, but the "other" factors like transportation and infrastructure, etc are not treated the same for both.  To me, when you strip down each proposal to just looking at the arena portion, the numbers are fairly close.  If this is in fact so,  then the discussion should really be about the other stuff, i.e. the stadium, field house, the clean-up, the district development and how the city gets approvals for needed infrastructure projects.  

 

Certainly, if you price things out piecemeal a smaller project may look cheaper and more amenable, but in the end be more costly.  Highway upgrades are an example of this which happens all the time.  If you don't have the money for a bigger project, or the vision that holds up the greater public benefit of a grand project, for actually a very small individual contribution, then smaller normally wins.  To me the CalgaryNext proposal was such a long-term vision that benefitted both the CSEC teams but also the community as a whole and the whole West Village district.  

 

I think we are sort of the right page. I guess my only clarification is that are we not treating the transportation/infrastructure costs the same or are they just much higher with Calgarynext than they are with Victoria Park option? Based on everything i've read the transportation, infrastructure needs, and clean up would add alot of costs to the CalgaryNext project that just are not needed with the Victoria Park option so the total cost really gets up there in a hurry and IMO I think it's necessary to consider the total costs of the project as opposed to jsut compare the cost to build the buildings. 

 

What it comes down to for me, and where I think most agree, is that the City needs a new fieldhouse, new arena, new stadium and a revitalized West Village but where I disagree is I don't think CalgaryNext was the best avenue to accomplish that. Would it be cheaper, maybe slightly and for sure it woudl be "easier" but I think long term the vision i think is best is separate facilities and a revitalized West Village the City can use as it sees fit. That is the more efficient and proper use of taxpayer funds IMO. 

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

I think we are sort of the right page. I guess my only clarification is that are we not treating the transportation/infrastructure costs the same or are they just much higher with Calgarynext than they are with Victoria Park option? Based on everything i've read the transportation, infrastructure needs, and clean up would add alot of costs to the CalgaryNext project that just are not needed with the Victoria Park option so the total cost really gets up there in a hurry and IMO I think it's necessary to consider the total costs of the project as opposed to jsut compare the cost to build the buildings. 

 

What it comes down to for me, and where I think most agree, is that the City needs a new fieldhouse, new arena, new stadium and a revitalized West Village but where I disagree is I don't think CalgaryNext was the best avenue to accomplish that. Would it be cheaper, maybe slightly and for sure it woudl be "easier" but I think long term the vision i think is best is separate facilities and a revitalized West Village the City can use as it sees fit. That is the more efficient and proper use of taxpayer funds IMO. 

Agree in part, but with transportation infrastructure e.g the Green Line isn't included in the Victoria Park discussions of cost, whereas the Crowchild interchange costs are for CalgaryNext.  In the latter case they are required because the facility sits over current roads, but really the upgrades need to be done whether CNext happens or not.  In the same vein the Green Line needs to happen, and will with a new arena or not.

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Agree in part, but with transportation infrastructure e.g the Green Line isn't included in the Victoria Park discussions of cost, whereas the Crowchild interchange costs are for CalgaryNext.  In the latter case they are required because the facility sits over current roads, but really the upgrades need to be done whether CNext happens or not.  In the same vein the Green Line needs to happen, and will with a new arena or not.

 

I could be missing something, but in the report I read on CalgaryNext there was no mention of the Crowchild interchange and therefore the costs were not included in the 1.8 billion price tag. The transportation costs they refereed to referenced transit upgrades and improvement to 14th St and access in and out of West Village but not Crowchild. 

 

so based on what i've read the 1.8 billion estimated price tag from the city on CalgaryNext does not include any improvements to Crowchild. 

[cross16]

7 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Is he trying to get Nenshi re-elected because I am getting tired of Bettman's and King's rhetoric of we can only build an arena if we have 50% or more public funding.

 

Whatever their motives were I think CESC has actually increased the chances that Nenshi will win. I think he likely was going to anyway but I think the arena issue has increased his popularity not decreased it.

 

So if that was their goal it's backfiring. 

[The_People1]

49 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Whatever their motives were I think CESC has actually increased the chances that Nenshi will win. I think he likely was going to anyway but I think the arena issue has increased his popularity not decreased it.

 

So if that was their goal it's backfiring. 

 

Ya.  To whoever it is that's running for mayor (can't remember the name) and refused to release your donor list, you are doing a huge disservice to yourself.  We all suspect it's CSEC and the optics of that looks really really really bad.

[cross16]

11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya.  To whoever it is that's running for mayor (can't remember the name) and refused to release your donor list, you are doing a huge disservice to yourself.  We all suspect it's CSEC and the optics of that looks really really really bad.

 

Yup Bill Smith. Not sure he willing release his donar list, was the only mayor candidate to be at Ken Kings lunch, only candidate King mentioned by name, and he wants to keep CalgaryNext on the table. 

 

True or not that is a lot of coincidences. 

[Cowtownguy]

It would be great to land the new Amazon headquarters given that they will invest a lot into the city they choose. The bidding process is quite competitive.  It makes sense for the city/province to bid aggressively because billions will pour into the city for decades. Now, if the city were to nullify the advantages of getting Amazon by giving them back every dollar they invest, then it does not really make sense. You would just be moving around money. On the surface, it seems to me that the Flames are expecting just that. When Ken King maintains that the city is investing little into the project because the Flames will pay taxes for decades, they are basically demanding that they get back anything they put into the city, and they have not really measured the value of that impact. 

 

I would like to see a new sports complex built here. It would be great if it could be built using Canadian labour and materials. I am not sure how possible that is. I like the idea of CalgaryNext. I am not sure about the location, and it was a wee bit over the top in terms of cost. I cannot believe that they ever thought the city would opt for that project.

[Zirakzigil]

7 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I could be missing something, but in the report I read on CalgaryNext there was no mention of the Crowchild interchange and therefore the costs were not included in the 1.8 billion price tag. The transportation costs they refereed to referenced transit upgrades and improvement to 14th St and access in and out of West Village but not Crowchild. 

 

so based on what i've read the 1.8 billion estimated price tag from the city on CalgaryNext does not include any improvements to Crowchild. 

It doesnt. Neither proposal includes the infrastructure upgrades that the city would be on the hook for. With Victoria Park though a lot of that work is already done or planned for. 

[CheersMan]

2 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

It would be great to land the new Amazon headquarters given that they will invest a lot into the city they choose. The bidding process is quite competitive.  It makes sense for the city/province to bid aggressively because billions will pour into the city for decades. Now, if the city were to nullify the advantages of getting Amazon by giving them back every dollar they invest, then it does not really make sense. You would just be moving around money. On the surface, it seems to me that the Flames are expecting just that. When Ken King maintains that the city is investing little into the project because the Flames will pay taxes for decades, they are basically demanding that they get back anything they put into the city, and they have not really measured the value of that impact. 

 

I would like to see a new sports complex built here. It would be great if it could be built using Canadian labour and materials. I am not sure how possible that is. I like the idea of CalgaryNext. I am not sure about the location, and it was a wee bit over the top in terms of cost. I cannot believe that they ever thought the city would opt for that project.

Amazon is working thru an endless survey or questionnaire which tally’s up points in every conceivable area, including quality of life and doing business in all competing cities.  The city that points the highest will ultimately get Amazon and their 50,000 jobs.  When your bringing in that many people, one would think that entertainment will be a significant category on the survey. 

The Flames are the golden pieced in CSEC, the lesser pieces are the Hitmen, Roughnecks and Stampeders.  The CSEC has made a commitment to the city by investing in and supporting all the major sports, call it a monopoly.  The CSEC can afford to break even or even take a loss in the lesser pieces if the golden piece (Flames) is doing well.  With the CSEC now contemplating their golden piece option, a move is not out of the question.  If the golden piece moves you can expect the lesser pieces to be sold off as well. 

In this turmoil, you can kiss the entertainment points goodbye on the Amazon survey.  The final nail in coffin for our hopes of landing Amazon would be suggesting that if their 50,000 people want to see the best of the best concerts they’ll have to head north on the QE2 and stay in a hotel.  

The race to land Amazon will by way too tight to finish poorly in any category.  Our timelines are not aligning with Amazon, however, an approved project with a vision like CalgaryNext or similar could be the difference in landing them.   

[DirtyDeeds]

On 26/09/2017 at 8:54 AM, travel_dude said:

 

Well, the city is disputing the cost of cleanup and saying that it is un-doable.  Not the same thing.  They have tainted the Next proposal by inflating the cost to make their argument, as did the Flames in underselling it.  So, who pays for the cleanup?  You want to use the land for someting other than Next, but you don't even want to clean it up for Next.

I seem to recall that the Flames were willing to put in a portion of the cleanup costs. Maybe the city prefers to go it alone on the cleanup later when costs are much higher.

[DirtyDeeds]

On 28/09/2017 at 4:21 PM, cross16 said:

 

Whatever their motives were I think CESC has actually increased the chances that Nenshi will win. I think he likely was going to anyway but I think the arena issue has increased his popularity not decreased it.

 

So if that was their goal it's backfiring. 

A recent poll was being talked about today on 770 radio. Nenshi is going to lose and Smith is poised to win. Nenshi has a very high disapproval level apparently.

 

This was even more interesting as Nenshi was voted the worlds best mayor in 2014.

[DirtyDeeds]

On 28/09/2017 at 7:51 PM, Cowtownguy said:

It would be great to land the new Amazon headquarters given that they will invest a lot into the city they choose. The bidding process is quite competitive.  It makes sense for the city/province to bid aggressively because billions will pour into the city for decades. Now, if the city were to nullify the advantages of getting Amazon by giving them back every dollar they invest, then it does not really make sense. You would just be moving around money. On the surface, it seems to me that the Flames are expecting just that. When Ken King maintains that the city is investing little into the project because the Flames will pay taxes for decades, they are basically demanding that they get back anything they put into the city, and they have not really measured the value of that impact. 

 

I would like to see a new sports complex built here. It would be great if it could be built using Canadian labour and materials. I am not sure how possible that is. I like the idea of CalgaryNext. I am not sure about the location, and it was a wee bit over the top in terms of cost. I cannot believe that they ever thought the city would opt for that project.

I heard(radio) that New Jersey offered Amazon 20 billion worth of incentives  to build there. If true we can't compete.

[cccsberg]

On 2017-09-28 at 7:51 PM, Cowtownguy said:

It would be great to land the new Amazon headquarters given that they will invest a lot into the city they choose. The bidding process is quite competitive.  It makes sense for the city/province to bid aggressively because billions will pour into the city for decades. Now, if the city were to nullify the advantages of getting Amazon by giving them back every dollar they invest, then it does not really make sense. You would just be moving around money. On the surface, it seems to me that the Flames are expecting just that. When Ken King maintains that the city is investing little into the project because the Flames will pay taxes for decades, they are basically demanding that they get back anything they put into the city, and they have not really measured the value of that impact. 

 

I would like to see a new sports complex built here. It would be great if it could be built using Canadian labour and materials. I am not sure how possible that is. I like the idea of CalgaryNext. I am not sure about the location, and it was a wee bit over the top in terms of cost. I cannot believe that they ever thought the city would opt for that project.

Well reportedly New Jersey has offered Amazon $Billions in tax breaks to build there, which makes it even more unlikely we'll still be in the running much longer.  

[stubblejumper1]

8 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

A recent poll was being talked about today on 770 radio. Nenshi is going to lose and Smith is poised to win. Nenshi has a very high disapproval level apparently.

 

This was even more interesting as Nenshi was voted the worlds best mayor in 2014.

 

I read an analysis on this poll and the author said it will be interesting to see if the people who supported Bill Smith in the poll will get out and vote.  Nenshi's supporters do get out and vote...while most Calgarians don't bother to vote (only about 39% voted in the last civic election).  The gist of the analysis was that not liking Nenshi in a poll is one thing, going out and voting against Nenshi is another.

 

The author hinted that the poll may also be misleading because 10-15% of the people polled were unsure (this is a high percentage of unsure voters).  If Nenshi wins over the unsure voters he would win (the same could be said for Bill Smith).

 

It will be interesting to see what happens on election night.

 

 

 

[Cowtownguy]

8 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I heard(radio) that New Jersey offered Amazon 20 billion worth of incentives  to build there. If true we can't compete.

If they spend $20 billion to get $5 billion, then they also cannot compete. Amazon may locate there, but what is the point at that cost?

[cross16]

10 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

A recent poll was being talked about today on 770 radio. Nenshi is going to lose and Smith is poised to win. Nenshi has a very high disapproval level apparently.

 

This was even more interesting as Nenshi was voted the worlds best mayor in 2014.

 

It did but polling also said Hilary Clinton was going to win and that the Ndp here were going to challenge but would not win. 

 

We shall see. I wa certainly surprised by that pool as I have yet to hear a lot of support for smith. Smith winning would be plan A for CESC. 

[Cowtownguy]

2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

It did but polling also said Hilary Clinton was going to win and that the Ndp here were going to challenge but would not win. 

 

We shall see. I wa certainly surprised by that pool as I have yet to hear a lot of support for smith. Smith winning would be plan A for CESC. 

The Nenshi campaign argues that the poll is bogus and the firm who conducted it has a poor reputation. Who knows? I would have bet a lot that Clinton would win the last election.

[Dooyas]

The problem with polls tends to be pushing the supporters for the underdog out to vote, and giving the supporters for the expected winner an excuse to not bother leaving the house.

 

Wether or not we get a new arena, at least can we teach the fans to stay in their bloody seats while the game is on? 

[cccsberg]

1 hour ago, Cowtownguy said:

If they spend $20 billion to get $5 billion, then they also cannot compete. Amazon may locate there, but what is the point at that cost?

Here's a couple thoughts.  Amazon is so huge it may act as an "anchor" business and draw in others in the same or associated businesses.  Plus, 50,000 new employees is a lot of families, houses, restaurants, cars and etc.  Any major industry moving in is never just about that business.  Secondly, we don't know over what period the reported $20B is over.  If its, for instance 5 years, then you give up $20B in the first 5 years, but then collect that same $20B every 5 years for the next 50 years (or pick your own number) of the business, netting $180B just from Amazon over the life of the project.  Even if you include discounting to calculate everything back to today's dollars (i.e. today's dollars are worth more than future dollars because of inflation) it would still be a win though much less.