Who Should We Fashion Or Rebuild Around?

[Flyerfan52]

Baertschi was working on a number of things to improve his overall game which can cause other areas to slide. I'm not to worried but i would rather he continue to develop and become at least a 2nd line LW to start with when ready to come up.

Sven was given opportunities with the Flames & made little of them. Even in Abby the so called scorer saw his PPG regress. If he was improving on the defensive side the coach would show trust but the minutes say otherwise.

Is he a slow learner or just not cut out for playing with grownups?

[tmac70]

Which is my point exactly. How many times do you provide someone the opportunity to step up. He has never moved remotely close to the hype that most have for this kid. When players with his hype are given the chance to step up they do, he seems unable to elevate his game. 

Sven was given opportunities with the Flames & made little of them. Even in Abby the so called scorer saw his PPG regress. If he was improving on the defensive side the coach would show trust but the minutes say otherwise.

Is he a slow learner or just not cut out for playing with grownups?

[tmac70]

Potential is a vague statement on anything. None of which you mentioned will be 1st line guys, 2nd I can agree but you have no one on that list who are top 3 guys. Kane plays 2nd line minutes on the Hawks, how in hell do you expect JH to slot in a 1st line role!!

What we have in our system is a lot of forwards in the 18-22yrs. range.  Some of those have potential to be top 6 (maybe top 3), but that remains to be seen.  Not all franchise players are 1st rounders.  Who has that potential?

- Poirier

- Johnny Hockey

- Granlund

- Monahan

- Agostino

- Janko

 

Remember, I said potential.  Those guy are less defensive than offensive, so if they develop properly, they could end up being 1st liners.  Some are years away from finding out.  Some could explode this coming season.  Or not. 

 

As far as a trade for one goes, franchise players do not become available in trade unless there is some kind of upheaval (Seguin) or a major UFA signing (Parise).  If you are willing to pay the price of an offer sheet, you might get someone close (O'Reilly).  Teams are likely to match any offer sheet for a franchise player though. 

[kehatch]

Which is my point exactly. How many times do you provide someone the opportunity to step up. He has never moved remotely close to the hype that most have for this kid. When players with his hype are given the chance to step up they do, he seems unable to elevate his game.

There are plenty of prospects that have taken as long as Baertschi (and much longer) to turn into NHL players. Including just about every player in Baertschi's draft class.

I think the problem has more to do with the hype, and your personal expectations, than the player.

[tmac70]

I can agree with this, the hype out way's the player's abilities which is going to be a huge disappointment as many speculate he is the key to the future. 

There are plenty of prospects that have taken as long as Baertschi (and much longer) to turn into NHL players. Including just about every player in Baertschi's draft class.

I think the problem has more to do with the hype, and your personal expectations, than the player.

[kehatch]

I can agree with this, the hype out way's the player's abilities which is going to be a huge disappointment as many speculate he is the key to the future.

I always projected Baertschi as a second line player. I still do. Me might make that, he might not, he might exceed that. He isn't any different then any other Flames prospect.

The problem is Feaster over sold him and many fans bit. Now many fans have written him off. Both are equally premature.

He is still a young prospect. Patience.

[travel_dude]

Potential is a vague statement on anything. None of which you mentioned will be 1st line guys, 2nd I can agree but you have no one on that list who are top 3 guys. Kane plays 2nd line minutes on the Hawks, how in hell do you expect JH to slot in a 1st line role!!

You have no more idea of what each of these guy's potential is than I do.  That is the point.  We have only had a glimpse of some of those players, so we don't know how they translate to the NHL, or how well they grow as players.  Kane played with Toews at time, but they had their lines constructed a certain way for scoring threats.  Kane would be a 1st line player on most teams.

[tmac70]

You have your speculation I have mine, which vary. Reality is Kane plays mostly 2nd line minutes for the Hawks and I agree is moved to provide a spark. Problem is Kane is more of a threat in a 2nd line role, with players that create time and space for him ( larger, Physical). To assume he may be a 1st line again speculation.

 

I have high hopes for most of our prospects. Until proven wrong my opinion is we have no 1st line prospects as of yet. 

You have no more idea of what each of these guy's potential is than I do.  That is the point.  We have only had a glimpse of some of those players, so we don't know how they translate to the NHL, or how well they grow as players.  Kane played with Toews at time, but they had their lines constructed a certain way for scoring threats.  Kane would be a 1st line player on most teams.

[robrob1974]

Sven was given opportunities with the Flames & made little of them. Even in Abby the so called scorer saw his PPG regress. If he was improving on the defensive side the coach would show trust but the minutes say otherwise.

Is he a slow learner or just not cut out for playing with grownups?

Do you ever listen to Troy Ward speak? Maybe things he says differ from what he gives in ice time?

He said Sven works on his D game and that for most players going from the NHL to the AHL there is a regression because it is hard on the psyche to be demoted. It takes time for the player to get used to the difference in play as well. He went on to talk about how the NHL is a cleaner game and it takes time to change pace with a choppier style.

Sven is fine. He needed to be in AHL from the beginning of the year. I think another year would do wonders for him as well. Ward also talked about how he was a younger than his age would suggest in maturing as a man. It is the nature of some players, and Ward was okay with that and understands. We should too.

I went to a couple of ABBY games and other fans were like, "who is this guy? Where did he come from?" Or, "this guy is unreal! Holy elbowing!" I had butterflies watching him. That isn't to say he will be an impact player in the NHL, I am just saying, we have to be a bit more patient and if he takes a few years it takes a few years.

[travel_dude]

You have your speculation I have mine, which vary. Reality is Kane plays mostly 2nd line minutes for the Hawks and I agree is moved to provide a spark. Problem is Kane is more of a threat in a 2nd line role, with players that create time and space for him ( larger, Physical). To assume he may be a 1st line again speculation.

 

I have high hopes for most of our prospects. Until proven wrong my opinion is we have no 1st line prospects as of yet. 

My speculation is just who I see having potential to be a top line player, based on (a limited view of) their style of game.  I see these guys (Granlund, Johnny H) as goal scorers.  It gets a little grey whether that is 1st or 2nd line.  With a team like the Ducks, that is Getzlaf/Perry, which account for most of their scoring.  On our team it may be 1st or 2nd.  Even if Johnny or Granlund light it up this year in the NHL, I doubt they would be deployed the way Getzlaf/Perry would be; in other words, north of 18 mins per game.

 

I do hope that your opinions are wrong and that players like Sven become top players on the Flames. 

[conundrumed]

Not to speak for FF, but I tend to agree with him. I'm a good year away from worrying about Sven, but I must say for a LWer his competition is getting awfully stiff, and this year's draft may add another body to the LW fold. He has to proof into a top 6 forward for us in the next year or 2, or he won't have a fit imho. He may be a better fit on a team that is already snarly, rather than a team trying to get there.

[travel_dude]

Not to speak for FF, but I tend to agree with him. I'm a good year away from worrying about Sven, but I must say for a LWer his competition is getting awfully stiff, and this year's draft may add another body to the LW fold. He has to proof into a top 6 forward for us in the next year or 2, or he won't have a fit imho. He may be a better fit on a team that is already snarly, rather than a team trying to get there.

If we have too many LW's, why not look at switching a few prospects to RW.  See who has the ability to play their off wing.  A player like Sven might benefit from being forced to play away from the boards on entry.  Less trying to make a play while being jambed against the boards.  Someone like Johnny Hockey already has that built in due to his skillset.

[CheersMan]

Which is my point exactly. How many times do you provide someone the opportunity to step up. He has never moved remotely close to the hype that most have for this kid. When players with his hype are given the chance to step up they do, he seems unable to elevate his game. 

 

I can't believe the rubbish I read on here sometimes.  How many chances you ask?  Sven has played a combined 51 gms for the big club.  He has collected 8g, 16A for 24 pts and is -2.  What percentage of NHL players have a career 0.5 ppg average?  Go look that one up.  Sven's career NHL numbers are right on pace with Brayden Schenn's last year in PHI.  Go look that one up too.  The kid hasn't even been given a decent chance yet and your kicking him to the curb like he's a lost starving puppy, unbelievable!  He is still refining his game, I'd give him atleast 2 more years before making hard conclusions as yours.   

 

Potential is a vague statement on anything. None of which you mentioned will be 1st line guys, 2nd I can agree but you have no one on that list who are top 3 guys. Kane plays 2nd line minutes on the Hawks, how in hell do you expect JH to slot in a 1st line role!!

 

Ask Quinville who is on his second line and he will tell you he doesn't have a second line.  I suppose you think Crosby is a second line player too?  Or is it Malkin?  

[Flyerfan52]

Which is my point exactly. How many times do you provide someone the opportunity to step up. He has never moved remotely close to the hype that most have for this kid. When players with his hype are given the chance to step up they do, he seems unable to elevate his game. 

Yep.

I was agreeing & adding my take on him.

Do we wait for him to reach that over-hyped potential (because he looked like the best of a mediocre prospect pool that has since improved) like the Oilers are with Yakupov or trade him before he's seen as a reclaimation project @ best.

I'd rather use the percieved value to get something before it isn't there anymore.

[CheersMan]

Yep.

I was agreeing & adding my take on him.

Do we wait for him to reach that over-hyped potential (because he looked like the best of a mediocre prospect pool that has since improved) like the Oilers are with Yakupov or trade him before he's seen as a reclaimation project @ best.

I'd rather use the percieved value to get something before it isn't there anymore.

 

Like Bret Hull and Martin St Louis?

[Flyerfan52]

Like Bret Hull and Martin St Louis?

Brett Hull was traded for value (Ramage & Wamsley were both parts of the '89 SC winning Flames) & Martin St. Louis went unclaimed in the 2000 expansion draft. We couldn't even give him away.

Both did better on other teams with different linemates later but that's no guarantee they would have done the same with the Flames.

 

We've traded/released a lot more players that never excelled anywhere. So dwelling on 2 that might or might not have become stars if we held onto them is being gun shy.

[420since1974]

If Ramage hadn't come in with the Hull trade, we would have been screwed when Suter went down to injury, probably no Stanley Cup.

[CheersMan]

Brett Hull was traded for value (Ramage & Wamsley were both parts of the '89 SC winning Flames) & Martin St. Louis went unclaimed in the 2000 expansion draft. We couldn't even give him away.

Both did better on other teams with different linemates later but that's no guarantee they would have done the same with the Flames.

 

We've traded/released a lot more players that never excelled anywhere. So dwelling on 2 that might or might not have become stars if we held onto them is being gun shy.

 

Maybe we would have had a few more SC's if Hull's and St Louis 1100 career goals were scored as Flames?

[robrob1974]

If we have too many LW's, why not look at switching a few prospects to RW.  See who has the ability to play their off wing.  A player like Sven might benefit from being forced to play away from the boards on entry.  Less trying to make a play while being jambed against the boards.  Someone like Johnny Hockey already has that built in due to his skillset.

The times I saw Baertschi in Abby this year, every other shift he played his off wing. He was being used on both sides.

[Flyerfan52]

Maybe we would have had a few more SC's if Hull's and St Louis 1100 career goals were scored as Flames?

Maybe.

Or if Hull hadn't been traded maybe we wouldn't have won the Cup in 1989.

 

Heck, if we'd quit & traded all vets on the way to the ditch back in the early 2000s & not traded for Kipper we'd have Crosby, 1 of OV or the Weasel & assorted top players. Iggy would have fetched @ least a 1st so if we'd decided on the 2003 draft you can add Getzlaf to those 1s.

Playing maybe can go any way you want it to. Save the pretend for NHL 14 though.

[robrob1974]

Yep.

I was agreeing & adding my take on him.

Do we wait for him to reach that over-hyped potential (because he looked like the best of a mediocre prospect pool that has since improved) like the Oilers are with Yakupov or trade him before he's seen as a reclaimation project @ best.

I'd rather use the percieved value to get something before it isn't there anymore.

I think you're being premature. I like Sven, but if they do trade him, it could be better for his career, and I wouldn't mind if they did. I just think it is too early. He will be good. It doesn't mean 1st liner good, but I think good. We just have to let him develop?

Maybe.

Or if Hull hadn't been traded maybe we wouldn't have won the Cup in 1989.

 

Heck, if we'd quit & traded all vets on the way to the ditch back in the early 2000s & not traded for Kipper we'd have Crosby, 1 of OV or the Weasel & assorted top players. Iggy would have fetched @ least a 1st so if we'd decided on the 2003 draft you can add Getzlaf to those 1s.

Playing maybe can go any way you want it to. Save the pretend for NHL 14 though.

Maybe.

Or if Hull hadn't been traded maybe we wouldn't have won the Cup in 1989.

 

Heck, if we'd quit & traded all vets on the way to the ditch back in the early 2000s & not traded for Kipper we'd have Crosby, 1 of OV or the Weasel & assorted top players. Iggy would have fetched @ least a 1st so if we'd decided on the 2003 draft you can add Getzlaf to those 1s.

Playing maybe can go any way you want it to. Save the pretend for NHL 14 though.

We all play maybe, and we all have a different version of maybe... That's what this forum is for, to discuss the maybes of the Flames. You can easily pretend your way off these forums as well. You play the maybe games too.

[travel_dude]

Yep.

I was agreeing & adding my take on him.

Do we wait for him to reach that over-hyped potential (because he looked like the best of a mediocre prospect pool that has since improved) like the Oilers are with Yakupov or trade him before he's seen as a reclaimation project @ best.

I'd rather use the percieved value to get something before it isn't there anymore.

I don't know that his perceived value is that high right now.  I would rather wait until he makes the team and plays a full year before I would label him a bust. 

[robrob1974]

The Flames have mismanaged the kid from the get go. He needs a full year in the AHL. Play him there to start, then maybe by the trade deadline, call him up for the end of the year or just keep him there the whole time.

My maybe games are NHL 93 (FF), so I gotta stay here.

[DirtyDeeds]

Not sure I agree because Bob Hartley, an offensive minded coach, is still the coach.  If Brad wants the Flames to be the Coyotes, then he would've started with the firing of Hartley.  Hartley is going to play an uptempo game that allows the blueliners like Brodie, Russell, Giordano, and Wideman to go on the offense.

 

Also, if we want players to compete in all 3 zones, then he should let Cammalleri go but he isn't.  There are contract extension talks.

 

 

When your boss tells you an employee(Hartley) has earned another year and already publicly stated Hartley is going nowhere for the next season you don't make it a priority to fire him anyway.

[kehatch]

Yep.

I was agreeing & adding my take on him.

Do we wait for him to reach that over-hyped potential (because he looked like the best of a mediocre prospect pool that has since improved) like the Oilers are with Yakupov or trade him before he's seen as a reclaimation project @ best.

I'd rather use the percieved value to get something before it isn't there anymore.

So you would trade 95 percent of Svens draft class? Because most of them are nothing but potential at this point. Patience is required with prospects. If you give up in every prospect that doesn't make it right away you aren't going to have many prospects.