Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[The_People1]

Well, I kind of expected the Flames would beat the Oilers (can't count on the Oilers for anything, really).  At least they kept it close for one period I guess.

 

If we end up in 6th, there's a decent chance we move up to 2nd or 3rd overall in the lottery so there's still some hope for one of the two Finns in that regard.

 

In a worst case, if the Flames draft 7th, lots of options.  If Nylander is there, then that's my first choice but i think Nylander goes at 5th.  No way Tzachuk drops to 7th.  That's just wishful thinking. 

 

7th, maybe that's where we trade the 7th pick for Hamonic...

[The_People1]

 

I'd rather improve the Flames the old fashioned way. Smart drafting as opposed to high drafting, good trades & smart management. Plus proving that tanking is not really in the vocabulary tends to draw the better UFAs more than the dregs that ran out of options so are settling for the only paycheck offered.

 

Do you want a contender or a shiny new draft pick?

 

That logic is flawed FF.

 

This is not a comparison of "contender vs draft pick".  Both can exist together.

 

There is no one suggesting we should abandon late round drafting.  Both late round drafting and tanking can exist together.

 

Imagine tanking + smart drafting.  That in combination is what we suggest and support.  No one supports stupid drafting regardless of tanking or not tanking.

 

We can have it all but you want this to be a debate about one or the other.

[phoenix66]

lat night was another great example of why true tanking is bad when it relates to the culture. Why was Todd so ticked?.. cuz he's discovering he cant just turn on the switch. Years or losing being acceptable has created players who , as soon as they get behind,  pack it in and go home.

Im pretty sure the players back then thought they were trying hard , but when forces beyond their control were creating losses, you just stop fighting it

 

they will never turn it around , until they rid themselves of the cancers..many of whom are innocent victims of the system and likely dont even see that they are (Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yak, etc).. i think of that group only RNH can remain if they are to become a wining team

[Red_Floyd]

If we do end up drafting 7, would it be out of the realm of possibility to offer edmonton our 1st+coulbourne+??? (dman prospect maybe) for taylor hall?

I'm well aware that Im probably going to get heckled for the suggestion or the obligatory "post this in the trade topic" but hear me out for a moment.

 

Edm would obviously have to retain some salary as that is a big contract, but hall has proven to be a consistent point prodcer and was a die hard flames fan growing up. Sure he's been stuck in a losing system, but our team would hopefully be able to show him what a "real team" is like and help him drop that losing mentality (and poor defensive play) hes been stuck with for years. Just imagine johnny and mony with hall, that could be insanse, I know personally I liked what I saw from the pair during the all-star games. Hes no right hand shot, but that could seriously be in the runnings for the leagues top line for years to come. Dislike him because of the colors, but man, I think he'd look good in the flaming C.

[cccsberg]

Well the win last night makes it impossible to finish last, while likely guaranteeing a last place finish by the oilers. With just a few games remaining, it seems quite likely the flames will finish in their current position of 6th from the bottom. Given our luck, some team below us will win one of the three top drafts, so I figure we draft 7th this year. Who would we like to see the flames pick in that spot?

One of these guys: Nylander(RW), Sergachev(D), Chychrun(D), Juolevi(D), Max Jones(LW, possible to trade down?)

[Flyerfan52]

If we do end up drafting 7, would it be out of the realm of possibility to offer edmonton our 1st+coulbourne+??? (dman prospect maybe) for taylor hall?

I'm well aware that Im probably going to get heckled for the suggestion or the obligatory "post this in the trade topic" but hear me out for a moment.

 

Edm would obviously have to retain some salary as that is a big contract, but hall has proven to be a consistent point prodcer and was a die hard flames fan growing up. Sure he's been stuck in a losing system, but our team would hopefully be able to show him what a "real team" is like and help him drop that losing mentality (and poor defensive play) hes been stuck with for years. Just imagine johnny and mony with hall, that could be insanse, I know personally I liked what I saw from the pair during the all-star games. Hes no right hand shot, but that could seriously be in the runnings for the leagues top line for years to come. Dislike him because of the colors, but man, I think he'd look good in the flaming C.

I expect the Jets to have 1 of the top 3 picks. Flames 1st & something better than Colbourne might work for them as they have Wheeler & Stafford @ RW with Armia waiting. They have less need of the 2 Finns than some teams.

[cross16]

If we do end up drafting 7, would it be out of the realm of possibility to offer edmonton our 1st+coulbourne+??? (dman prospect maybe) for taylor hall?

I'm well aware that Im probably going to get heckled for the suggestion or the obligatory "post this in the trade topic" but hear me out for a moment.

 

Edm would obviously have to retain some salary as that is a big contract, but hall has proven to be a consistent point prodcer and was a die hard flames fan growing up. Sure he's been stuck in a losing system, but our team would hopefully be able to show him what a "real team" is like and help him drop that losing mentality (and poor defensive play) hes been stuck with for years. Just imagine johnny and mony with hall, that could be insanse, I know personally I liked what I saw from the pair during the all-star games. Hes no right hand shot, but that could seriously be in the runnings for the leagues top line for years to come. Dislike him because of the colors, but man, I think he'd look good in the flaming C.

 

Not going to happen. I like Taylor Hall, but no way does Edmonton offer to eat salary AND trade him to the Flames unless the Flames really overpay. A top 10 pick and a 3rd liner is not exactly an overpayment for one of the better LW in the game.  If they want to deal Hall I think they would get better offers and won't have to eat salary to get a deal done.

 

I'm also not really for trading the Flames first if its in the top 10. Its a really good top 10 IMO so I need alot of value back in that trade to make it worthwhile and I don't see that happening. Trading a top 10 pick this year for someone like a Hamonic or Hall is not very smart, IMO. Too much talent in the top 10 to pass on it. 

[travel_dude]

I expect the Jets to have 1 of the top 3 picks. Flames 1st & something better than Colbourne might work for them as they have Wheeler & Stafford @ RW with Armia waiting. They have less need of the 2 Finns than some teams.

 

A little confused at what you are getting at.  ps3sucks was talking about trading with EDM for Hall.  You seem to be talking about a deal with WPG.

[Flyerfan52]

A little confused at what you are getting at.  ps3sucks was talking about trading with EDM for Hall.  You seem to be talking about a deal with WPG.

I was saying that we have better odds of moving into the top 3 via a trade with Winnipeg than making a reasonable trade with Edmonton.

 

Top 3 gets 1 of the Finns to fill out the top line rather than having Hall play 2nd line behind Gaudreau. IMO a better use of the 1st if traded.

[conundrumed]

I was saying that we have better odds of moving into the top 3 via a trade with Winnipeg than making a reasonable trade with Edmonton.

 

Top 3 gets 1 of the Finns to fill out the top line rather than having Hall play 2nd line behind Gaudreau. IMO a better use of the 1st if traded.

I would agree ff. Just what happened to the Jets this year I don't know, because that's a solid roster.

So what are the Jets' needs in a trade. And if they had a positional need in the draft, what would it be?

[travel_dude]

I was saying that we have better odds of moving into the top 3 via a trade with Winnipeg than making a reasonable trade with Edmonton.

 

Top 3 gets 1 of the Finns to fill out the top line rather than having Hall play 2nd line behind Gaudreau. IMO a better use of the 1st if traded.

 

That makes sense.  I couldn't get the connection to EDM from the post you quoted.  

[The_People1]

Keith Tzachuk played for the Jets back in his day.  It would make sense for the Jets to take Keith's son at 3, 4, or 5th overall.  I don't see them trading down unless they had the 2nd pick and traded down to 3r or 4th.  Otherwise, I think they just draft Matt.

 

Jets just lost Ladd, LW top 6.  Tzachuk would fill that spot nicely over time.

[conundrumed]

Keith Tzachuk played for the Jets back in his day.  It would make sense for the Jets to take Keith's son at 3, 4, or 5th overall.  I don't see them trading down unless they had the 2nd pick and traded down to 3r or 4th.  Otherwise, I think they just draft Matt.

 

Jets just lost Ladd, LW top 6.  Tzachuk would fill that spot nicely over time.

Good call.

Tkachuk-Scheifele-Wheeler

In time, that's a scary line.

[The_People1]

lat night was another great example of why true tanking is bad when it relates to the culture. Why was Todd so ticked?.. cuz he's discovering he cant just turn on the switch. Years or losing being acceptable has created players who , as soon as they get behind,  pack it in and go home.

Im pretty sure the players back then thought they were trying hard , but when forces beyond their control were creating losses, you just stop fighting it

 

they will never turn it around , until they rid themselves of the cancers..many of whom are innocent victims of the system and likely dont even see that they are (Hall, RNH, Eberle, Yak, etc).. i think of that group only RNH can remain if they are to become a wining team

 

Just like when the Flames lost 8-3 to the Ducks, I hate those games.  It brings out the anti-tank crowd.  Every other day, they don't come out.

[Flyerfan52]

Keith Tzachuk played for the Jets back in his day.  It would make sense for the Jets to take Keith's son at 3, 4, or 5th overall.  I don't see them trading down unless they had the 2nd pick and traded down to 3r or 4th.  Otherwise, I think they just draft Matt.

 

Jets just lost Ladd, LW top 6.  Tzachuk would fill that spot nicely over time.

It's Keith Tkachuk. To those around for version 1 of the Jets he was known as "Captain Weasel". Yeah, he was loved.

 

Alex Steen (son of Thomas) is popular though.

******************************************************************************

You don't know much about Wpg. & the history of the original Jets I guess.

I would agree ff. Just what happened to the Jets this year I don't know, because that's a solid roster.

So what are the Jets' needs in a trade. And if they had a positional need in the draft, what would it be?

Main need is LD.

[DirtyDeeds]

That would be the Perfect example of why not do do this.  ZERO playoff success.    They became that "average" team that I fear SO much.   They could have developed their prospects instead, and chose not to.   At the end of the day, what do they have to show for it?   Schneider's been good as expected, but New Jersey has hardly been great.  

 

IMHO, this was the start of new Jersey getting Away from what they were so good at for so long:  internal development and drafting.   It used to be all about New Jersey and Detroit.  After this....more just Detroit as the singular example.

 

They've got nothing to show for it now...Nothing post-season.  Literally nothing.  It's a worst-case outcome.

 

Meanwhile, that 9th overall pick, Bo Horvat, is looking AMAZING...and I believe New Jersey's organization Should have been able to make an even better decision with that pick (either develop Nichuschikin better, or pick Max Domi).  Very hard to go wrong.

 

New Jersey will be relying more on Scott Wedgewood soon...he is their future.  Probably next season.   Schneider's time will have come and gone un-noticed.     But Scott Wedgewood won't have a Bo Horvat to backstop.   So the pain endures.

 

A costly mistake.

I like Bo too and would like him on my team, however I am a little concerned about his +/-

 

I know you can't take a players +/- as gospel(Joker with us is a good example) but still it is pretty bad so this would raise a flag for me to investigate further.

[conundrumed]

It's Keith Tkachuk. To those around for version 1 of the Jets he was known as "Captain Weasel". Yeah, he was loved.

 

Alex Steen (son of Thomas) is popular though.

******************************************************************************

You don't know much about Wpg. & the history of the original Jets I guess.

Main need is LD.

lol. You've made your love of Tkachuk known elsewhere, his kid will be your next captain!

But seriously, that puts Chychrun back at 2-3. Where he belongs.

It's been an interesting year watching scouts having him drop.

The other 2 OHL dmen must be held to a lower standard.

If he were to fall to us at, say 6th, and it's BPA, I don't know how we don't.

I also won't know why Edmonton wouldn't take him, lest it's a big flavour-of-the-year love in, god knows that's never happened.

I think he's still #2, like the start of the year right behind Matthews.

Morph the Finns any way you like, they aren't logging the minutes or type of minutes Chychrun does, nor do his OHL dmen counterparts.

Think Ekblad, only better skating and higher O ceiling. Likely higher D IQ as well.

[cccsberg]

lol. You've made your love of Tkachuk known elsewhere, his kid will be your next captain!

But seriously, that puts Chychrun back at 2-3. Where he belongs.

It's been an interesting year watching scouts having him drop.

The other 2 OHL dmen must be held to a lower standard.

If he were to fall to us at, say 6th, and it's BPA, I don't know how we don't.

I also won't know why Edmonton wouldn't take him, lest it's a big flavour-of-the-year love in, god knows that's never happened.

I think he's still #2, like the start of the year right behind Matthews.

Morph the Finns any way you like, they aren't logging the minutes or type of minutes Chychrun does, nor do his OHL dmen counterparts.

Think Ekblad, only better skating and higher O ceiling. Likely higher D IQ as well.

If we end up 6th LA or better we are going to have a shot at one of several very, very good players.

[phoenix66]

Vancouver in Edmonton tonight..Columbus playing Toronto.. Bottom 3 is a real possibility now depending on tonight and how we do against Vancouver

[jjgallow]

Vancouver in Edmonton tonight..Columbus playing Toronto.. Bottom 3 is a real possibility now depending on tonight and how we do against Vancouver

 

It's embarrassing, but yeah, with 2 games left it's hard not to notice and at least be happy about the draft.

 

No matter what, our Absolute worst scenario being 8th, pretty much guarantees a great pick.  And extremely little chance of picking that low.  6th is realistically worst case.

[darth_henning]

Oilers and Jackets with big wins. 

 

Vancouver is in full tank mode. 

 

Still a good shot at top 3. 

 

Ideal result the next two games: 

 

1-0 loss to Vancouver (for Ortio to pad his stats)

 

4-3 loss to Minny with Monahan FINALLY getting his hat trick (and 30 goals)

 

Likely bottom 3 finish. Guaranteed top 6 pick. 

[StarkRaving]

I expect the Flames will win both their remaining games.  Vancouver played last night and they looked pretty bad.  Minny has clinched and will likely rest their best players.  (That said, Backstrom is starting, so the Wild might score a few)

[The_People1]

I'm actually glad we aren't starting Hiller "the Miller killer".  Jonas Hiller has been pwning the Canucks since the playoffs last summer and starting him would be a virtual guaranteed win.

[travel_dude]

I'm actually glad we aren't starting Hiller "the Miller killer".  Jonas Hiller has been pwning the Canucks since the playoffs last summer and starting him would be a virtual guaranteed win.

 

Ortio is as likely (more actually) to beat Vancouver.  He played well against them in the past, IIRC.

 

He is also motivated to perform well after last game.  We know that this is his last chance this season, as Backstrom is confirmed by Hartley to play against Minny.

[DirtyDeeds]

I'm actually glad we aren't starting Hiller "the Miller killer".  Jonas Hiller has been pwning the Canucks since the playoffs last summer and starting him would be a virtual guaranteed win.

Hiller does play well against the Knuckleheads. He also managed to grab a win in their barn last time we played even though he did not play particularly well.