kehatch Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 From the standpoint of virtue, you are correct. There is no good moral reason to lose on purpose. From the standpoint of draft advantage, it is a matter of mathematics. It is not a matter of opinion that losing = higher draft order is good or bad. There is simply a good mathematical advantage to lose on purpose... which I have been arguing the entire thread, should be eliminated by a non-weighted lottery system. Can't see the forest through the trees. Or in this case you have been so infatuated with one tree you don't even know if your in a forest. Yes losing gets you a higher draft pick. But it's a monstrous leap from there that losing on purpose makes you a winning team down the road. It's an even bigger leap that losing on purpose is the only way to build a winning team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Tanking and the losing part does not switch on or off just because it is only for one year........ Can't see the forest through the trees. Or in this case you have been so infatuated with one tree you don't even know if your in a forest. Yes losing gets you a higher draft pick. But it's a monstrous leap from there that losing on purpose makes you a winning team down the road. It's an even bigger leap that losing on purpose is the only way to build a winning team. For the entirety of this thread, I've been behind the notion that losing on purpose to gain a draft advantage is a one of many key ingredients in building a winning team. I have been framed to suggest it is the only ingredient necessary for building a winning team. So no kehatch, that's not what i'm saying and I don't understand why you don't allow me to take my position on the matter. The recent examples of the Islanders, Panthers, Lightning, and Avalanche have gone with a #1 overall pick as one of many ingredients in rebuilding their teams and they enjoy flourishing results. The Oilers have gone with a #1 overall pick as the only ingredient in rebuilding and they continue to be horrible. These are excellent examples to show a difference between the two kinds of "tanks". I am promoting one of the two kinds. You cannot just rely on #1 picks. Plain and simple. However, combining a #1 pick with great drafting in all rounds, good UFA signings, good player development, good coaching, etc, the results are highly favourable. With all these things combined, tanking cannot be shown to be have a crippling effect on performance in the long run. Furthermore, it is debatable whether an honest 27th place finish is any better off than a dishonest 30th place finish. The losing is overwhelming in both situations. Like I said many times, players don't tank. Coaches generally don't tank. All tanks are managerial. Players and coaches don't carry over the losing momentum from one season to the next because their focus is always on winning. On top of that, roster turnover with new leaders and locker room personnel can change a losing culture very quickly. For me, it's a no brainer. The draft advantage is worth the unethical convenience because no matter what, you still have to do everything right to get out of the basement of the league anyways. The best case is the league goes to a non-weighted draft system so that way, no one can take advantage of the system out of convenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Umm no. There is no good reason to tank, even for just one season. There is shame to "taking advantage of where it might slot us come draft time" (insert TANK) Tanking and the losing part does not switch on or off just because it is only for one year........ Who said anything about tanking? I sure didn't. Accept the reality for what it is, we've had a losing season and it wasn't by design. If you think the Flames were Stanley Cup contenders this year , then you are dreaming. Losing sucks, who wants to cheer for a losing team? At the same time lets not cry about it, rebuilding via the draft is important.. unless you figure Monahan and Bennett aren't valuable draftees. I personally haven't felt the Flames are purposely trying to tank this year, that would be completely counter productive to what was achieved last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Who said anything about tanking? I sure didn't. Accept the reality for what it is, we've had a losing season and it wasn't by design. If you think the Flames were Stanley Cup contenders this year , then you are dreaming. Losing sucks, who wants to cheer for a losing team? At the same time lets not cry about it, rebuilding via the draft is important.. unless you figure Monahan and Bennett aren't valuable draftees. I personally haven't felt the Flames are purposely trying to tank this year, that would be completely counter productive to what was achieved last season. I quoted and underlined the statement that you made that can only be understood that you are okay with a tank for better draft position. What else did you mean?? ........ If you think the Flames were Stanley Cup contenders this year , then you are dreaming. Don't put words in my mouth. I said no such thing anywhere. Please find me a quote anywhere on these boards where I have said the Flames are SC Contenders. Losing sucks, who wants to cheer for a losing team? At the same time lets not cry about it, rebuilding via the draft is important.. I am not crying about anything. In fact I have said many times all I ask from the Flames is they come to play every night. I put no expectations such as cup run or playoffs on the Flames. I will complain if the Flames don't give me qa proper effort each game. unless you figure Monahan and Bennett aren't valuable draftees. Again where did I say anything remotely like this??? please quote where I have complained anywhere about either Monahan or Bennett?? in any thread on these boards.... I personally haven't felt the Flames are purposely trying to tank this year, that would be completely counter productive to what was achieved last season. This I agree with. I don't think we are tanking and it would also be counterproductive to what we have accomplished this year too. Albeit a lesser accomplishment this season because we likely won't have the playoffs to frame/highlight our play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 I quoted and underlined the statement that you made that can only be understood that you are okay with a tank for better draft position. What else did you mean?? This I agree with. I don't think we are tanking and it would also be counterproductive to what we have accomplished this year too. Albeit a lesser accomplishment this season because we likely won't have the playoffs to frame/highlight our play. I know..its annoying when people put words in your mouth, you've shown a knack for that . I'll ask the same of you to quote me at anytime where I even mentioned, let alone supported "tanking". All I said is the Flames season is lost, even mentioned this wasn't by design so not sure where you're getting tanking from either. I simply pointed out the reality that this will likely net us a top 10 draft pick this year. Obviously I'd rather be hoisting the Stanley Cup but thats just not happening so we move forward and look on the bright side. This is a rebuilding franchise, they need more skilled young assets, the Draft offers those kinds of assets. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of a higher draft position to improve your team. I never even implied the Flames were tanking on purpose just for a better draft position, in fact I blatantly stated the exact opposite, which you even acknowledged yourself...! (This I agree with. I don't think we are tanking and it would also be counterproductive to what we have accomplished this year too. Albeit a lesser accomplishment this season because we likely won't have the playoffs to frame/highlight our play. ) I said : This season is what it is, there's no shame in taking advantage of where it might slot us come draft time especially during a rebuild, we just don't want to be getting familiar with the top 5 draft picks every single season What rebuilding franchise would not be taking advantage of their draft position after a disapointing seasons? Again, didn't even mention tanking, just stating the fact that this season is lost and the only consolation to the franchise is the opportunity to add another skilled player to the prospect pool. I even mentioned we don't want to make this a habit every season... unless you figure Monahan and Bennett aren't valuable draftees... This is in response to you seeing "shame" in a franchise for taking advantage of their draft position. If thats the case you can't be happy with the result of the Flames drafting 6th and 4th overall. Shame on the Flames then.. To sum it up so its clear for you, I don't support any team losing on purpose just for a chance at a higher draft pick. I'm realistic enough to understand where the Flames are in their rebuild and how young skilled assets can benefit us in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 I know..its annoying when people put words in your mouth, you've shown a knack for that . I'll ask the same of you to quote me at anytime where I even mentioned, let alone supported "tanking". .................... ... I try to always quote people. If fact I also underline and bold the statements in question most of the time in the quote so there is no misunderstanding. I don't try to put words in people's mouths ... I do challenge some posters thinking and statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAC331 Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Slowly creeping up the draft rankings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted March 12, 2016 Report Share Posted March 12, 2016 Slowly creeping up the draft rankings. I still don't think it will last we're still outplaying WPG,TOR and EDM Overall I can see the Flames landing a 5-10 draft spot. Can still snag a really good player in that range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 I still don't think it will last we're still outplaying WPG,TOR and EDM Overall I can see the Flames landing a 5-10 draft spot. Can still snag a really good player in that range. I think 6-8. But I will take your 5 and go between 5-8... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlbertaBoy12 Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 I think 6-8. But I will take your 5 and go between 5-8... I dont see anyway this happens. Its most likely we draft top 4 unless we lose the draft lottery.The way we have been playing has been better, but we are struggling to score. Bennett might be out for a little bit same with brodie and our schedule isent friendly at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 we draft top 4 unless we lose the draft lottery. Does anyone think the league would rig the draft against us due to the ongoing Wideman saga? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Does anyone think the league would rig the draft against us due to the ongoing Wideman saga? If they are going to rig it, it would be against the Oilers. Doug Armstrong believes that any team that has won the lottery should not be able to draft 1st overall for 5 years. The only way the Oilers would be able to, under his system (if had been implemented last year) is if they finished 30th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 If they are going to rig it, it would be against the Oilers. Doug Armstrong believes that any team that has won the lottery should not be able to draft 1st overall for 5 years. The only way the Oilers would be able to, under his system (if had been implemented last year) is if they finished 30th. The lottery is in place to deter tanking but under Doug Armstrong's suggestion, the only way to draft #1 more than once in five years is to tank all the way to 30th. Not exactly a bright idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 The lottery is in place to deter tanking but under Doug Armstrong's suggestion, the only way to draft #1 more than once in five years is to tank all the way to 30th. Not exactly a bright idea. Is it any worse than the current system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 14, 2016 Report Share Posted March 14, 2016 Is it any worse than the current system? Yes it is actually. Because the Oilers don't need to tank to last place to get #1 overall whereas they would be encouraged to do so under Doug Armstrong's suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfire11 Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 And the Flames are making their late season meaningless push to that coveted 17th spot in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 And the Flames are making their late season meaningless push to that coveted 17th spot in the league. I wouldn't worry if I were you. 8/11 on the road, where they are 10-20-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 You're right, Gaudreau doesn't score on the road and Bennett is injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 You're right, Gaudreau doesn't score on the road and Bennett is injured. Bennett is coming back soon. Johnny sets up on the road, but doesn't score. He should be able to "score" in Montreal. But we have some games against real teams. Teams needing the win; Minny, LA, Ducks, Hawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliwankers Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 The lottery is in place to deter tanking but under Doug Armstrong's suggestion, the only way to draft #1 more than once in five years is to tank all the way to 30th. Not exactly a bright idea. I saw Armstrong's suggestion more of a way to combat luck than to address tanking. However, as the lottery is now, group tanking is more of an issue as every team that is ranked 17th to 30th stands to increase their odds with every loss. FWIW, I do not for a second believe that any player out there will try to lose deliberately for the sake of finishing lower in the standings. Hockey players are not wired that way. Teams, like the Leafs, may field AHL rosters but even those players are going to bust their gut as they have lots to play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 I saw Armstrong's suggestion more of a way to combat luck than to address tanking. However, as the lottery is now, group tanking is more of an issue as every team that is ranked 17th to 30th stands to increase their odds with every loss. FWIW, I do not for a second believe that any player out there will try to lose deliberately for the sake of finishing lower in the standings. Hockey players are not wired that way. Teams, like the Leafs, may field AHL rosters but even those players are going to bust their gut as they have lots to play for.That's exactly what it was. The leagues concern right now isnt tanking, it teams lucking into the number 1 pick multiple times. People forget that half of the oilers number 1 picks they won via the lottery and the league doesn't want to keep seeing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted March 19, 2016 Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Bennett is coming back soon. Johnny sets up on the road, but doesn't score. He should be able to "score" in Montreal. But we have some games against real teams. Teams needing the win; Minny, LA, Ducks, Hawks. Ya, but the Flames play better or beat real teams lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted March 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2016 Bennett is coming back soon. Johnny sets up on the road, but doesn't score. He should be able to "score" in Montreal. But we have some games against real teams. Teams needing the win; Minny, LA, Ducks, Hawks. He might be in the game tomorrow against the Habs, if not then he should be good to go against the Leafs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1qqaaz Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 And the Flames are making their late season meaningless push to that coveted 17th spot in the league. Don't worry. The Flames won't have a losing culture for 10 games. Because 10 games of a losing culture is definitely more impactful than getting a franchise forward for 20 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cccsberg Posted March 20, 2016 Report Share Posted March 20, 2016 Don't worry. The Flames won't have a losing culture for 10 games. Because 10 games of a losing culture is definitely more impactful than getting a franchise forward for 20 years... C'mon, what an idiotic comment. First off, the ONLY way for the Flames to lose 10 straight is if the players give up, and yes, if they did, it would impact them and the team for years to come. Secondly, with the lottery, even if you finish last you have a poor chance of getting #1 overall. And even if you did, Matthews hardly looks any more an impact forward that probably 8-10 guys that are going to be picked in the upcoming draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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