rickross Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 I agree the GM dictates the product on the ice and has some control over a teams ability to win/lose. I believe tanking is an organizational decision that even the owners have to accept before a GM decides to act. GMs are also judged by their teams performance. I don't believe any professional team wants to lose. It's a matter of accepting the reality of the situation and determining how far you go to invest in your future. You just can't trade for or sign a pick like McDavid so u have to take a gamble on the draft process. Tanking can also be blamed on the NHL itself. It's their draft system that rewards losers so it's a bit of a 2 way street. "Rebuild" can be a dangerous word, as it implies that fans should expect their team to lose more frequently. It's not always the case as the Flames proved last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cccsberg Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I agree the GM dictates the product on the ice and has some control over a teams ability to win/lose. I believe tanking is an organizational decision that even the owners have to accept before a GM decides to act. GMs are also judged by their teams performance. I don't believe any professional team wants to lose. It's a matter of accepting the reality of the situation and determining how far you go to invest in your future. You just can't trade for or sign a pick like McDavid so u have to take a gamble on the draft process. Tanking can also be blamed on the NHL itself. It's their draft system that rewards losers so it's a bit of a 2 way street. "Rebuild" can be a dangerous word, as it implies that fans should expect their team to lose more frequently. It's not always the case as the Flames proved last year I agree that the NHL draft system rewards losers. This is OK for a short-term as it theoretically adds talent to improve the lower teams and bring them back to life. When that becomes perpetual due to either intent or complete incompetence the system needs to be changed to ensure it is not abused. I like the changes already made, i.e. lottery for the top 3 picks, but think it needs to go further, i.e. disqualifying a team from that lottery for a period of 5 years after winning 1st OA. A bad team can still get top level picks, just not the cream of the crop, year after year, after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix66 Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 I agree that the NHL draft system rewards losers. This is OK for a short-term as it theoretically adds talent to improve the lower teams and bring them back to life. When that becomes perpetual due to either intent or complete incompetence the system needs to be changed to ensure it is not abused. I like the changes already made, i.e. lottery for the top 3 picks, but think it needs to go further, i.e. disqualifying a team from that lottery for a period of 5 years after winning 1st OA. A bad team can still get top level picks, just not the cream of the crop, year after year, after year. id be more specific.. getting 1st overall relegates you to no better than than 6th the next year.. then 5th .. then 4th.. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 id be more specific.. getting 1st overall relegates you to no better than than 6th the next year.. then 5th .. then 4th.. etc The irony is had this system been in place during the Oilers entire draft run it actually would have forced them to have more diversity and balance amongst their picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 How are annoyed are the Leafs faithful at the Oilers for giving them a run for last place?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cccsberg Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 So, have the Leafs, and others taken a page out of Chicago's playbook from last season on how to circumvent the Salary Cap? They are not using Chicago's LTIR excuse to free up Cap space until the playoffs, but the recent spat of "season-ending" injuries and "season-ending" surgeries looks more than a bit suspicious and makes one wonder if they are using that to get good players out of games, while freeing up Cap space they can use to accept Salary Dumps for real assets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 So, have the Leafs, and others taken a page out of Chicago's playbook from last season on how to circumvent the Salary Cap? They are not using Chicago's LTIR excuse to free up Cap space until the playoffs, but the recent spat of "season-ending" injuries and "season-ending" surgeries looks more than a bit suspicious and makes one wonder if they are using that to get good players out of games, while freeing up Cap space they can use to accept Salary Dumps for real assets? It indeed looks suspicious to pull the plug on JVR and Lupul at this point in the season because if they were in a playoff race, then one would think those two would rush back into the line-up as soon as possible. Like you said, maybe it's done to open up salary cap space to absorb a bad contract and gain picks/prospects. Another thing is, they refuse to call up William Nylander because he would probably help them win games right now. If the draft was a non-weighted lottery for all teams that miss the playoffs, then we would probably see Nylander in the Leafs line-up right now, helping them win games. If they win enough games, then they can make the playoffs. If not, then it doesn't matter because there would be zero incentives to tank. Instead, Shanahan and Lamoriello are doing the smart thing by taking advantage of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 How are annoyed are the Leafs faithful at the Oilers for giving them a run for last place?? I'm adding the Jets as another that will be giving those 2 a run for those high picks the next few years. There's no talk of a contrived tank but there is talk of inserting yet more rookies. I'm worried the best vets like Wheeler might get tired of seeing their best years wasted & ask for trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I'm adding the Jets as another that will be giving those 2 a run for those high picks the next few years. There's no talk of a contrived tank but there is talk of inserting yet more rookies. I'm worried the best vets like Wheeler might get tired of seeing their best years wasted & ask for trades. It's gotta be tough to be a Jets fan, supporting the new regime from Atlanta. Lots of good pieces but the wrong players moved out or not signed. How good was Frolik on that team last year. The Gouch? Really? Signing Big Buff but letting Ladd go? Trading with the NY Oilers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 I'm adding the Jets as another that will be giving those 2 a run for those high picks the next few years. There's no talk of a contrived tank but there is talk of inserting yet more rookies. I'm worried the best vets like Wheeler might get tired of seeing their best years wasted & ask for trades. Good point, with Ladd now gone and playoffs a very long shot the Jets are right there in the bottom feeding mix. They've done extremely well recently with drafting, I could see them flipping one of their 1st rounders this year for immediate help..but you have to admire their pool of prospects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 27, 2016 Report Share Posted February 27, 2016 Good point, with Ladd now gone and playoffs a very long shot the Jets are right there in the bottom feeding mix. They've done extremely well recently with drafting, I could see them flipping one of their 1st rounders this year for immediate help..but you have to admire their pool of prospects If they flip 1 of their 1sts for immediate help they won't get anyone as good as Ladd even if he were to cost 6.5 long term. Dude is right that letting Frolik & Gooch walk over a few $s (I think with Frolik it was 0.1 & 1 year of term) the slide started. As I said, too many rookies @ 1 time. Buff was a good re-sign but I wonder if he now regrets it. Wheeler is the obvious choice for next captain but does he want to stick around for a rebuild? Big Buff has a ring & the area is near home & his comfort zone of hunting/fishing. Wheeler doesn't have a ring yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted February 29, 2016 Report Share Posted February 29, 2016 If they flip 1 of their 1sts for immediate help they won't get anyone as good as Ladd even if he were to cost 6.5 long term. Dude is right that letting Frolik & Gooch walk over a few $s (I think with Frolik it was 0.1 & 1 year of term) the slide started. As I said, too many rookies @ 1 time. Buff was a good re-sign but I wonder if he now regrets it. Wheeler is the obvious choice for next captain but does he want to stick around for a rebuild? Big Buff has a ring & the area is near home & his comfort zone of hunting/fishing. Wheeler doesn't have a ring yet. Hang in there Flyerfan. No matter how much you despise it, drafting #1 overall will be the best solution to the Flames and Jets rebuilds. #2 will be second best. #3 will be third best, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Been an almost perfect scenario for those of you cheering for loses. The Flames are playing well, keeping it close, but still avoiding the "dreaded" two points. I will still cheer for wins, but if we have to lose at least the Flames are keeping it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 They're definitely not playing to lose but struggling to pull out wins here. They'll need to start winning some games sooner than later as you never want to close the season out with a losing streak. I think Toronto and Winnipeg are loving "World of Tanks" right now whereas the Flames have just hit a bad stretch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted March 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Been an almost perfect scenario for those of you cheering for loses. The Flames are playing well, keeping it close, but still avoiding the "dreaded" two points. I will still cheer for wins, but if we have to lose at least the Flames are keeping it fun. They're definitely not playing to lose but struggling to pull out wins here. They'll need to start winning some games sooner than later as you never want to close the season out with a losing streak. I think Toronto and Winnipeg are loving "World of Tanks" right now whereas the Flames have just hit a bad stretch Well you two should cheer hard for Ortio to Start because he has not won a game yet this season. Edit: Both Ortio and Hiller have very similar numbers but Hiller has a .500 record. Even Ramo with better numbers did not have .500 record from all his starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 Well you two should cheer hard for Ortio to Start because he has not won a game yet this season. Edit: Both Ortio and Hiller have very similar numbers but Hiller has a .500 record. Even Ramo with better numbers did not have .500 record from all his starts. I don't think you can fault him though. Tough to win when your team scores 1 goal per game. And for the record, I am cheering for wins. Like always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 2, 2016 Report Share Posted March 2, 2016 19-games to go. 9-home games and 10-road games. Looking at the remaining schedule and based on our record this season, I think we can win 4 more at home and 3 more on the road in some combination to hit a total of 14-points. So, something like 7-12 down the stretch to finish with 70-points. At this point in time, I would say 70-points does not get the Flames the worst record in the NHL. I think the Leafs will finish in the low 60s and I have a feeling Buffalo will be one of the worst teams down the stretch and finish in the mid-60s. Somehow I think the Jets and Oilers will pull it together and play .500 the rest of the way. Arizona and Vancouver will slide down the standings hard and will be in that 70-point range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
420since1974 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Based on today's standings, 10 of Calgary's remaining games are against teams that would be in the play-offs. A big 6 game home stand is coming up soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I doubt that the Flames end up last. Bottom 5 for sure. Just need to hope we or someone below us wins the lotteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmac70 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Winnipeg and EDM should move past us. I see us in 28th to 29th spot tis year. Ortio will get sent down, just put Hiller and Backstrom and net should and it is sealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I doubt that the Flames end up last. Bottom 5 for sure. Just need to hope we or someone below us wins the lotteries. The tank battle is too strong. We will not be last. EDM has been playing a bit better against bottom feeders, so they will start gaining some momentum. They have a decent goalie. Their backend has some youth that gives them some ability. Toronto on the other hand will ice their AHL team and make it look like they are trying. WPG is a better team, but victimized too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_henning Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I suspect we finish 27 or 28. No way we out-tank Edmonton or Toronto without deliberate effort to lose games. Though playing Hiller may well be that deliberate effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickross Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Well you two should cheer hard for Ortio to Start because he has not won a game yet this season. Edit: Both Ortio and Hiller have very similar numbers but Hiller has a .500 record. Even Ramo with better numbers did not have .500 record from all his starts. I don't believe any true fan actually cheers for their team to lose..except Oilers fans of course. This season is what it is, there's no shame in taking advantage of where it might slot us come draft time especially during a rebuild, we just don't want to be getting familiar with the top 5 draft picks every single season...like the Oilers of course lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I don't believe any true fan actually cheers for their team to lose..except Oilers fans of course. This season is what it is, there's no shame in taking advantage of where it might slot us come draft time especially during a rebuild, we just don't want to be getting familiar with the top 5 draft picks every single season...like the Oilers of course lol Umm no. There is no good reason to tank, even for just one season. There is shame to "taking advantage of where it might slot us come draft time" (insert TANK) Tanking and the losing part does not switch on or off just because it is only for one year........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 There is no good reason to tank From the standpoint of virtue, you are correct. There is no good moral reason to lose on purpose. From the standpoint of draft advantage, it is a matter of mathematics. It is not a matter of opinion that losing = higher draft order is good or bad. There is simply a good mathematical advantage to lose on purpose... which I have been arguing the entire thread, should be eliminated by a non-weighted lottery system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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