Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[cross16]

The bottom five does have a chance to rebuild their team.  It's just, they aren't guaranteed a top pick.  They have an "equal" chance as any other team that missed the playoffs to seed in the top 14.  Just like they have an equal chance to sign any UFA that hits the market.  Non-weighted lottery would not prevent teams from improving.

 

 

Problem with this philosphy People is marquee Free agents rarely become UFAs. I strongly disagree that UFA can replace the draft as becoming a way to actually improve your team and would argue the exact opposite. All your going to get is a bunch of overpaid 2nd/3rd liners that end up bloating your salary cap.

 

The draft IMO is still the best parity tool you can have becuae that is were your high end talent comes up about 90% of the time. 

[The_People1]

In that case, you're talking out of both sides of your face at once.  On one side, you suggest and advocate for tanking (in fairness, you suggest it in a "take advantage of the current system" way), and on the other side you say "it needs to stop.  It's wrong and should be corrected."

 

I propose it as exactly "take advantage of the current system" way. 

 

When guys with incredible integrity and respect from the league like Brendan Shanahan and Mike Babcock are waiving the white flag and tanking for the best draft odds, then the system is broken.

[Kulstad]

I propose it as exactly "take advantage of the current system" way. 

 

When guys with incredible integrity and respect from the league like Brendan Shanahan and Mike Babcock are waiving the white flag and tanking for the best draft odds, then the system is broken.

 

Do you even hear yourself talking here?

 

You're suggesting that Shanny and Babcock are willingly and purposely damaging their personal reputations in order to be in the draft lottery.  How messed up is that?

 

You can't honestly believe that the Phaneuf trade was an indicator of the Leafs tanking, can you?  I'm not a Leafs fan at all, but even *I* could see that Phaneuf was a pylon on the Leafs blue line.

[The_People1]

Problem with this philosphy People is marquee Free agents rarely become UFAs. I strongly disagree that UFA can replace the draft as becoming a way to actually improve your team and would argue the exact opposite. All your going to get is a bunch of overpaid 2nd/3rd liners that end up bloating your salary cap.

 

The draft IMO is still the best parity tool you can have becuae that is were your high end talent comes up about 90% of the time. 

 

Let's talk philosophy then.

 

Does having a non-weighted seeding for the top 14 picks prevent the worst team in the league from drafting #1 overall?  No it doesn't.  They can still win the lottery.  They are simply not guaranteed the #1 overall pick.  They will be encouraged to win every game to the very last game of the season.

 

Where do some of these UFAs go when teams cap out and must let UFA's walk?  Let's take the Blackhawks for example.  We find Saad in Columbus.  We find Sharp in Dallas.  We find Ladd and Byfuglien in Winnipeg.  etc.  These guys are fairly marquee.  The salary cap is working in ways to redistribute talent from the talent rich teams to the talent poor teams.

 

Moreover, when a team misses the playoffs, it means they are not close to challenging for the Cup.  All teams that miss the playoffs need help to get better.  Why penalize teams that barely miss the playoffs and reward teams that miss the playoffs by a mile? Worse, we clearly see teams at or near the bottom of the league mailing it in around this time of year competing for the best lotto odds.  Do we want to see that every year?  No.  Every team should be encouraged to win to the very last game of the season.

[The_People1]

Do you even hear yourself talking here?

 

You're suggesting that Shanny and Babcock are willingly and purposely damaging their personal reputations in order to be in the draft lottery.  How messed up is that?

 

You can't honestly believe that the Phaneuf trade was an indicator of the Leafs tanking, can you?  I'm not a Leafs fan at all, but even *I* could see that Phaneuf was a pylon on the Leafs blue line.

 

Phaneuf was traded for Cowen and Michalek who are both injured and can't even play.  Think about that for a second.  A captain and top minutes Dman for 2 players on the IR...

[robrob1974]

Umm the Kings missed the playoffs but have a stacked team and don't need a first overall pick. With your system they could've won the lottery just a year or two after winning the cup. Makes no sense.

Actually, they could've won the lottery the exact season after they won the Cup...

[cross16]

Let's talk philosophy then.

 

Does having a non-weighted seeding for the top 14 picks prevent the worst team in the league from drafting #1 overall?  No it doesn't.  They can still win the lottery.  They are simply not guaranteed the #1 overall pick.  They will be encouraged to win every game to the very last game of the season.

 

Where do some of these UFAs go when teams cap out and must let UFA's walk?  Let's take the Blackhawks for example.  We find Saad in Columbus.  We find Sharp in Dallas.  We find Ladd and Byfuglien in Winnipeg.  etc.  These guys are fairly marquee.  The salary cap is working in ways to redistribute talent from the talent rich teams to the talent poor teams.

 

Moreover, when a team misses the playoffs, it means they are not close to challenging for the Cup.  All teams that miss the playoffs need help to get better.  Why penalize teams that barely miss the playoffs and reward teams that miss the playoffs by a mile? Worse, we clearly see teams at or near the bottom of the league mailing it in around this time of year competing for the best lotto odds.  Do we want to see that every year?  No.  Every team should be encouraged to win to the very last game of the season.

 

I think its worth noting the changes made to the lottery system already that are effective this year. The last place team is no longer guarateed the first overal pick and in fact the last play overal team now has more odds they will pick outside the top 3 than they do in the top 3 so I think we need to stop making the assumption that the last overal team = first overall. Now the last overal team may draft 4th overal is the lottery doesn't go their way.

I think the players you listed support my pint, Saad, Sharp, Ladd and Byfuglien are not marquee players. Maybe you could make the case for Byfuglien but not the other 3. Do you really think you can build a team around Saad, Sharp or Ladd? would you put them on the same level of Stamkos, Tavares, Victor Hedman, even Sam Bennett?

Keep in mind how Columbus was able to acquire Saad. They traded Artem Anisimov, who they acquired in the Rich Nash trade, who they drafted first overal.

 

YOu and I will disagree and thats fine. I recognize your views, but IMO the draft is still the best parity tool and until that changes its my view you need to have the opporutnity available for the worst teams to become better. I think Edmonton has already shown us that intentionally tanking year after year and intentionally losing does not guarantee any amount of success so once again i will say that tanking is not the issue many here make it out to be. There are consequences to tanking if the orgnization chooses to follow that path. 

[The_People1]

Umm the Kings missed the playoffs but have a stacked team and don't need a first overall pick. With your system they could've won the lottery just a year or two after winning the cup. Makes no sense.

Actually, they could've won the lottery the exact season after they won the Cup...

 

If they have a stacked team, then how did they miss the playoffs?  It's completely contradictory.

[robrob1974]

If they have a stacked team, then how did they miss the playoffs? It's completely contradictory.

They won the cup and went deep how many times in the last five years. Only a year later they're #1 in the division. Do you even watch or understand hockey? Everyone outside of you knows LA should've made the playoffs last year with the team they had. The Flames had a Cinderella year and squeaked in.

Then with your proposed draft system you want to possibly reward LA with a 1st overall pick, if they were to win the lottery. It makes no sense.

Their stacked team was exhausted.

[The_People1]

I think its worth noting the changes made to the lottery system already that are effective this year. The last place team is no longer guarateed the first overal pick and in fact the last play overal team now has more odds they will pick outside the top 3 than they do in the top 3 so I think we need to stop making the assumption that the last overal team = first overall. Now the last overal team may draft 4th overal is the lottery doesn't go their way.

I think the players you listed support my pint, Saad, Sharp, Ladd and Byfuglien are not marquee players. Maybe you could make the case for Byfuglien but not the other 3. Do you really think you can build a team around Saad, Sharp or Ladd? would you put them on the same level of Stamkos, Tavares, Victor Hedman, even Sam Bennett?

Keep in mind how Columbus was able to acquire Saad. They traded Artem Anisimov, who they acquired in the Rich Nash trade, who they drafted first overal.

 

YOu and I will disagree and thats fine. I recognize your views, but IMO the draft is still the best parity tool and until that changes its my view you need to have the opporutnity available for the worst teams to become better. I think Edmonton has already shown us that intentionally tanking year after year and intentionally losing does not guarantee any amount of success so once again i will say that tanking is not the issue many here make it out to be. There are consequences to tanking if the orgnization chooses to follow that path. 

 

By saying the Oilers tank, you concede there are teams that tank. 

 

Tanking removes the benefit of doubt that a team is as bad as they appear to be because they are losing intentionally rather than losing despite an honest effort to win.  You use the Oilers example to show that it's okay to reward dishonesty since dishonesty can lead a team astray.  However, for every Oilers, there is Ekblad and the Panthers.  So there is equal, if not more evidence, of the contrary.

 

While I can see you are using your Oilers example to show the lack of results from tanking, that actually detracts away from my main argument which is that tanking creates a loss of league integrity and encourages unethical practices.  The most undesirable outcome is when fans cheer for their team to lose and we see that all the time.

 

Bottom line is, creating league parity is important but if it can be achieved along with league integrity, then that's even better.  I also think zero teams tanking is better than one team tanking.  You feel the current lottery system is suffice, if we even see one team tank, then I don't feel the current system has done enough.

[The_People1]

They won the cup and went deep how many times in the last five years. Only a year later they're #1 in the division. Do you even watch or understand hockey? Everyone outside of you knows LA should've made the playoffs last year with the team they had. The Flames had a Cinderella year and squeaked in.

Then with your proposed draft system you want to possibly reward LA with a 1st overall pick, if they were to win the lottery. It makes no sense.

Their stacked team was exhausted.

 

It only makes no sense because you are holding onto traditional beliefs that the worst teams in the league are entitled to the top pick in the draft.  No one tanks their way out of a playoff spot to enter a draft lottery so there's no problem if a team that misses the playoffs wins a draft lottery.

[stubblejumper1]

I think this thread is totally moot.  With Ramo out for the season, Wideman suspended, Russell injured, Smid in the lineup and half the remaining games on the road this team will not have to tank to lose.  They just don't have the horses.

[DirtyDeeds]

I think this thread is totally moot.  With Ramo out for the season, Wideman suspended, Russell injured, Smid in the lineup and half the remaining games on the road this team will not have to tank to lose.  They just don't have the horses.

Actually this thread was started last year. My thinking then was the Flames were out of a playoff spot but close.

After all the threads on failing for #1 spot.draft in the Oiler forums I wanted to see how the Flames fans thought on this subject.

 

The fact that this season it appears that the Flames are losing ground on the playoffs spot, and has many injuries and issues that is making it more difficult to ice the best team(Wideman for example)does not make the thread moot.

 

It in fact all the above makes the discussion more relevant, because they are closer to the bottom and it is so much more inviting to "intentionally tank" for the #1 draft pic.

[Carty]

Actually this thread was started last year.

 

Actually you started this thread 2 years ago today...        How time flies...  

 

I think this thread is totally moot.  With Ramo out for the season, Wideman suspended, Russell injured, Smid in the lineup and half the remaining games on the road this team will not have to tank to lose.  They just don't have the horses.

 

41 pages and still going strong after 2 years would indicate it is far from being moot...   I don't see the topic dying out any time soon either...

 

One of the valuable purposes this thread also has, is it gives a place for the "tank vs never tank" argument discussion in one thread so it doesn't constantly derail other topics elsewhere...

[robrob1974]

They're talking about tanking on TSN 1040 right now. Apparently Don Muloney said himself that he intentionally made it harder for his team to win. But I caught the conversation at the end so I don't know his exact words.

[stubblejumper1]

My apologies.  I wasn't taking a run a the creator of the thread. 

 

I was calling the topic moot because I think the Flames will lose a lot of their remaining games even if the current roster puts in its' best effort every night.  It pains me to say it, but here is no need to "tank" because the team simply isn't good enough. 

[DirtyDeeds]

Actually you started this thread 2 years ago today...        How time flies...  

 

 

41 pages and still going strong after 2 years would indicate it is far from being moot...   I don't see the topic dying out any time soon either...

 

One of the valuable purposes this thread also has, is it gives a place for the "tank vs never tank" argument discussion in one thread so it doesn't constantly derail other topics elsewhere...

Wow I should have checked the date.

 

I remember I debated for a long time(Weeks) if I should start this topic or not .Then I debated on how to target the tanking part. I could have just put it in the NHL section as a tanking thread but I wanted top bring the topic close to home and made it the Flames tanking for a higher pick.

 

At this time what has really surprised me is how there is little grey area on this subject. The only grey area is if/how the NHL could change the process to make things more fair. 

[rickross]

I think the final quarter will reveal the true tankers this season. Leafs already started the parade with the Dion trade, Oilers started 5 yrs ago..ha! Hiller time is coming to an end, unless Ortio stands on his head we are definitely drafting top 10

[conundrumed]

You guys and your "tanking".

Prior to trading Phaneuf, the Leafs had scored 13 goals in 11 games prior to the all star break.

 

Why don't we actually discuss SOMETHING, rather than wonder what bottom teams are conspiring.

 

I find it odd that media is ignoring ALL of the bottom feeders are Canadian teams.

Are we watching ourselves get devoured by US markets?

Because the optics are certainly there.

Our teams talk picks, their's talk championships.

How much coincidence does one need?

[rickross]

You guys and your "tanking".

Prior to trading Phaneuf, the Leafs had scored 13 goals in 11 games prior to the all star break.

Why don't we actually discuss SOMETHING, rather than wonder what bottom teams are conspiring.

I find it odd that media is ignoring ALL of the bottom feeders are Canadian teams.

Are we watching ourselves get devoured by US markets?

Because the optics are certainly there.

Our teams talk picks, their's talk championships.

How much coincidence does one need?

Your complaining about "tanking" in a thread where the topic is tanking. Start a new thread if you feel you have a more worthy topic it's that simple.

I wouldn't say media has ignored the status of Cdn teams, it's been touched on but does it really need an autopsy? Less than 1/4 of the NHL is Cdn teams. It definitely sucks considering no playoffs in Canada but it's not the 1st time it's happened.Canadian markets aren't going anywhere, I think a lot of Cdn teams are in the midst of retooling or rebuilding so in a few years you'd imagine more Cdn teams back in the forefront.

[darth_henning]

While it is remarkable that the bottom feeders this year are all Canadian teams, I'm not sure what the overarching story is. 

 

 

Vancouver - their core is aging, they have few to no good young players, and went from being contenders 5 years ago to an aging group in need of rebuild. Results? Predictable. 

 

Edmonton - has been rebuilding for a decade. They should have improved this year, and in fact they have, when McDavid has been playing, but no one expected them to suddenly be contenders. Results? Predictable. 

 

Calgary - on paper improved over the summer. We have a young, talented and growing core. But Wideman, Hudler, Jones and others have failed to repeat career years. We have been plagued with injuries (Brodie, Bouma, both goalies, Gio's recovery). Results? Far short of predictions that had us challenging the Pacific. 

 

Winnipeg - did well last year, and were in a position to marginally improve. Not realy sure where things derailed for them, but a huge step backwards for a team expected to be a contender in three years. Results? Unfortunately falling short of expectations. 

 

Montreal - Should have been the top of their division. Then Price went down and exposed just how many weaknesses the team really had. Results? Completely unpredictable, but may that was a huge hole. 

 

Ottawa - Was a bubble team. Should have been a bubble team. Didn't improve or worsen on paper. Results? Less than expected, but not stunning. 

 

Toronto - has been a disappointment as long or longer than Edmonton. Was in full rebuild mode this season. Results? Exactly as expected. 

 

 

 

What connecting narrative is there? Other than all the Canadian teams happen to suck at the same time. 

 

Five years from now? Vancouver is the only team that I don't see as playoff locks. 

[rickross]

While it is remarkable that the bottom feeders this year are all Canadian teams, I'm not sure what the overarching story is.

Vancouver - their core is aging, they have few to no good young players, and went from being contenders 5 years ago to an aging group in need of rebuild. Results? Predictable.

Edmonton - has been rebuilding for a decade. They should have improved this year, and in fact they have, when McDavid has been playing, but no one expected them to suddenly be contenders. Results? Predictable.

Calgary - on paper improved over the summer. We have a young, talented and growing core. But Wideman, Hudler, Jones and others have failed to repeat career years. We have been plagued with injuries (Brodie, Bouma, both goalies, Gio's recovery). Results? Far short of predictions that had us challenging the Pacific.

Winnipeg - did well last year, and were in a position to marginally improve. Not realy sure where things derailed for them, but a huge step backwards for a team expected to be a contender in three years. Results? Unfortunately falling short of expectations.

Montreal - Should have been the top of their division. Then Price went down and exposed just how many weaknesses the team really had. Results? Completely unpredictable, but may that was a huge hole.

Ottawa - Was a bubble team. Should have been a bubble team. Didn't improve or worsen on paper. Results? Less than expected, but not stunning.

Toronto - has been a disappointment as long or longer than Edmonton. Was in full rebuild mode this season. Results? Exactly as expected.

What connecting narrative is there? Other than all the Canadian teams happen to suck at the same time.

Five years from now? Vancouver is the only team that I don't see as playoff locks.

Ebs and flows of the NHL, it almost seems to happen where all of a sudden the Cdn teams aren't as competitive,then there's a surge and all the teams are relevant again. Last season all Cdn teams made playoffs except Leafs and of course the Oilers

[darth_henning]

Exactly. 

 

Even look at next year. 

 

With Price back, Montreal will make it. 

 

Ottawa will challenge for a spot

 

Calgary will likely get a divisional spot if we can get even league average goaltending

 

The Jets have improved through the season and will likely take a wildcard. 

 

Edmonton will challenge for a wildcard with McDavid in his second year. 

[The_People1]

They're talking about tanking on TSN 1040 right now. Apparently Don Muloney said himself that he intentionally made it harder for his team to win.

I was calling the topic moot because I think the Flames will lose a lot of their remaining games even if the current roster puts in its' best effort every night.  It pains me to say it, but here is no need to "tank" because the team simply isn't good enough. 

At this time what has really surprised me is how there is little grey area on this subject. The only grey area is if/how the NHL could change the process to make things more fair. 

I think the final quarter will reveal the true tankers this season. Leafs already started the parade with the Dion trade, Oilers started 5 yrs ago..ha! Hiller time is coming to an end, unless Ortio stands on his head we are definitely drafting top 10

 

As repeated many times in this thread, all tanks are General Manager tanks.

 

Players play to win because their careers are on the line.  Coaches are similar because they are judged on wins, unless they collude with the GM and have the GM's support, otherwise coaches coach to win.  And so, there's really little sense in defining tanking as actions by players and coaches.

 

GMs, on the other hand, are responsible for competitive AND financial performance.  A #1 overall pick makes money because the player is almost certainly pre-hyped, pre-marketed, and pre-advertised to the hockey world.  It's an instant seller for jerseys and instant seller for your team's brand recognition.  You can fill seats in the arena if you get that #1 overall pick to play on your team.  This is in addition to being able to simply add a talented individual player to the roster to help win games.

 

Quite often, actions speak louder than words.  Absence of response to losing is just as much an action towards losing than trading away NHL level players for prospects or picks who cannot possibly join the roster and make a positive difference right away.

 

GMs will sell it like they are building to win in the future, which is to say, they are not trying to win right now, which is the same thing as trying to lose right now.  Some of you may say, "just because a GM isn't trying to win, it doesn't mean he's trying to lose."  Really?  For some things in life, ya it makes sense but in competitive sports where there's only winning and losing, it's black and white.  Why are you letting GM's sell you something in between to justify losing?

[jjgallow]

Maybe it would help to bring in an extreme example to help better illustrate that GMs have a responsibility towards the long term success of the franchise.

 

IF the Flames wanted to be a contender last year as they approached the playoffs, they could have.

 

All it would have required, is:

 

• Signing every available elite free agent to front-loaded contracts which they had no way of paying past the last 30 games of the season
• Buying out a bunch of struggling players
• Making trades for some of the best veterans in the NHL, in exchange for the next 5 years of first round picks, and our prospects

 

Basically, if we Wanted to be a contender in last year's playoffs, the GM Could have, technically, made the Flames a contender.

 

And we would then be the worst team in the league the following year.

 

 

"Win Now" is an extremely expensive mantra that leads to short term success, and long term failure, if deployed at the GM level.

 

 

I want a GM with the mantra of "Win the Cup".  Or at very least, "Be a consistent contender".

 

that requires some short term pain.   And it's intentional.   Just like, we Weren't transformed into a contender last year.  That was intentional.